milesmiles902 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 What are people's opinion of wild-caught ornamental fish? *Washes hands clean still having two wild-caught fish* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milesmiles902 Posted January 3, 2017 Author Share Posted January 3, 2017 I am just curious. No hard feelings. If you feel it isn't an issue because there are plenty of them and we regulate the capture of species, say it. If you think all species are sadly being taken from the wild and should never be. Let's hear it. Maybe you just feel some species are over captured, etc. I want people to be open about this. After all this is the place to talk about it. It is in our constinution. xD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Honestly, I think that as long as they are really regulating what is wild caught vs captive bred, it is not a huge deal. I would like to see them regulate the size of tanks people are putting fish into though 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashy Fins Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 The ornamental trade gives many poor countries an incentive to take care of their reefs and mother nature is far more capable than us at replenishing. On the other hand, captive bred fish are important to safeguard against future laws preventing wild collection and help in the case of fish with extremely limited ranges in the wild. Plenty more pros and cons to both types, of course, but those are the things I think of first. The fish I keep aren't commonly available as captive bred, if at all, so mine are all wild caught. If given the choice, I would choose captive bred in some cases (seahorses, Banggai cardinals) and wild caught for most others (genetic diversity, personal preference). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danlu_gt Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I feel like as long as they are given a relative large enough tank, well fed, always in good water condition, and as stress free as possible in aquarium setting then I don't have issue with wild or captive bred. If water condition is poor and not well fed, then neither wild nor captive bred fish are a good option, maybe screen saver would be better. ;-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClark Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 The ornamental trade gives many poor countries an incentive to take care of their reefs and mother nature is far more capable than us at replenishing. On the other hand, captive bred fish are important to safeguard against future laws preventing wild collection and help in the case of fish with extremely limited ranges in the wild. Plenty more pros and cons to both types, of course, but those are the things I think of first. The fish I keep aren't commonly available as captive bred, if at all, so mine are all wild caught. If given the choice, I would choose captive bred in some cases (seahorses, Banggai cardinals) and wild caught for most others (genetic diversity, personal preference). 100% agree. We harvest allot of fish and clams in the Northwest here. The model is proven. Reef harvest as a business is sustainable, creates jobs and awareness of the reef. I believe that reef keeping will ultimately help the reefs if managed well (eg no cyanide and limits, like any natural resource). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bevo5 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Obviously there's a responsible, ethical way to manage the industry. The issue - as with everything - is how do you safeguard against the people who just don't care about your ethics or regulations? We can say 'only x number of angels can be exported,' but that doesn't mean x number more aren't shipped illegally. IT also doesn't take into account the total number that are caught to cover losses before reaching that export number etc. Add in truly nasty stuff like cyanide fishing and we all have to accept we're supporting a hobby that takes at least some toll on the reefs. Hopefully it's minimal and the fish we're mostly buying are extremely plentiful. My favorite fish - the Naso Tang - is listed as 'least concern,' so I feel decently OK taking care of them in a large, well-maintained tank. That said - I don't think I'd feel ethically OK with purchasing a fish that was at all at risk in the wild. Whether or not I felt comfortable in keeping it alive and happy, I wouldn't want to be responsible to driving up demand on that particular species. Either way - it really annoys me when people treat fish loss so flippantly and just disregard the lives of these fish. The number of fish it took to get the one you got means that many, many fish have to die each time someone doesn't want to cycle a tank etc. If you don't care about valuing the life of a fish (which I suppose is fair...we eat a lot of fish), then at least stick to freshwater species, where they'll breed in motor oil. **Full Disclosure: I get all my fish at C&C and I imagine most are wild caught. I also spent 20 years with wild caught African Cichlids...to increase value of fry. So I'm absolutely not standing on a soap box. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanikki Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 One aspect not mentioned yet, is that supporting universities and private industry in raising marine animals supports marine research and helps increase our understanding, and husbandry of marine animals common in our hobby. It supports our personal duty, as caretakers of these animals we enjoy in our mini reefs, to protect them in our tanks and in the wild. I'm not perfect, but do understand I have a responsibility that may mean voting with my dollars (as in pay a little more for aquacultured animals) or having forbearance/patience at times. LFS and online stores generally do not get my money for livestock unless the creatures under consideration are aquacultured. Otherwise, I look to fellow hobbyists' livestock to stock my tank (of which I do have two wild-caught fish, live rock, and some inverts). And, of course, I look to everyone on this forum to help me stock my tank with your frags :-)! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexinverts Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I buy captive raised whenever possible, and support sustainable harvesting of wild fish. If ever I have a choice, I will choose captive raised over wild caught. The future of our hobby will depend on the development of captive breeding programs for marine fish, since the reef environment is severely threatened by climate change and ocean acidification. I have the same stance when purchasing corals. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovesalt Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I started fish keeping with freshwater and most of those fish were live bearers. When I switched to salt I just assumed that the fish were bread in captivity. I felt terrible when I bought a copperband and it died the next day. LFS said "well that happens when you scoop fragile fish out of the ocean and fly them here in a bag. Not all survive." I was heart sick. That never occurred to me. Now I buy from a reputable store, choose fish that are captive bread if possible and am learning to choose fish that have a good chance of survival. That's been a hard lesson. While I don't like the idea of Wild caught, I think if we have responsible practices and healthy tanks, that lessens my personal guilt. Guess I still feel conflicted... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milesmiles902 Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 I think a lot of good things were said here. I just feel guilty. At least when people go hunting they eat the meat. We just watch them for our pleasure assuming that they are happy. I would hate to be pulled from the breeding population. The pros and cons both have tons of weight to them. We wouldn't be able to produce captively raised species if we didn't get fish from the sea. Reef builders showed at least 5-10 new species captively bred in the last year. Some were even pelagic spawners, which are very hard to breed. I guess taking it slow, buying from a reputable source and buying fish that we know are sustainable is the best we can do. I do believe that there is sustainable harvesting, I just wonder if we really know that these fish we are buying were sustainably harvested. It would be interesting to hear from some local fish stores. I really don't know the whole process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashy Fins Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Not buying fish from certain regions known for damaging collection methods (Philippines, Indonesia) surely goes a long way, and you get better quality fish when you buy from better regions, as well. Places with good reputations are Australia, Maldives, Fiji, Africa, and I'm sure some others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClark Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 That's a good point. Everything like Discus and Angels were wild caught from the Amazon back in the day. It took a while to get good at breeding freshwater, it was no easy challenge. Without the wild fishery even freshwater probably would not have existed besides the simplest of freshwater fish... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovesalt Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Jeff pointed out to me one day that at least the fish we keep are guaranteed to be fed...and not be eaten by predators. That made me feel a tiny bit better. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenbasketreef Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Also to further the discussion, a few concerns has been raised from fish breeding. 1. Genetic Handicap In the wild many individual fish as the sources of egg and sperm and with breeding limited number of brood stock only. 2. Natural resources piracy. Countries with natural resources along the amazon river brought this issue in one of the cites meeting. Their argument is that commercial fish breeding of amazon aquarium freshwater species in Florida and South East Asia Countries causing the already poor people loosing their income from the local resources. These people has no alternative income other than collecting freshwater aquarium fish. In Indonesia and Philippines a lot of reef got destroyed by bom fishing for food fish. The aquarium industry in both countries providing alternative income to these bom fishermen to collect aquarium fish and coral. They get proper training to collect marine fish without the use of cyanide. Again the advance of marine aquaculture threatening the fisherman income and the worst case scenario they will be back to bom fishing. In Bali I have seen government program of breeding panther grouper, the goverment selling to the fisherman 1/2" fingerlings so they can grow them to sell to aquarium trade and selling bigger size baby panther grouper for ocean rearing by fisherman to sell in the fish market later as human consumption. This mutual benefit has spread over to several different species of clownfish and cardinalfish It doesn't matter in which side of fence one standing, there is always pro and con. Finding a mutual benefit for both to coexist at the same time sharing common goal of sustainability sometimes hardly look upon. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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