Greenhouse Project [Pic Heavy]

[milesmiles902]

Hello Everyone!

 

I have never properly introduced myself on the forum, but my name is Miles Taylor. I live in Corvallis, Oregon and am a graduate student in physical chemistry. Among the many things I enjoy, DIY of anytype is my favorite. Thus, I have decided to attempt to build a greenhouse for both saltwater, freshwater and a hydroponic garden. I have never grown coral outside, nor built a greenhouse, but hopefully we can talk about my struggles and triumphs.

 

I could go and make a 3D image of what I want, but I already know what I want. Here is the overall idea:

 

 

I would have coral on one side of the greenhouse and hydroponics on the other. Straight ahead would be a freshwater pond that goes from inside the greenhouse to outside. Limiting freezing and allowing certain plants to be inside for the whole year. The vats might end up being fruit trees, but we will see. I think it would be good to have a large sump with liverock in it.

 

From the entrance

 

 

My plan is to make leveled platforms for both the aquariums and the hydroponic setup. Allowing for gravity to feed water through piping if I needed, plus it allows for different plants to grow and have the necessary room.

 

The greenhouse is going to be 9'x12' and about 9 feet at the peak. The location I chose is just outside of the fence to prevent any curious dogs from entering the pond:

 

 

The nice part about this spot is it is going from east to west. It gets the full range of sun, without maybe 10° on either side.

 

I was thinking about doing a pvc structure for a long time, but after my grandpa past there was a metal frame left behind that I was able to use. I think he would be happy it isn't just laying around in the desert. I drilled holes and began screwing the pieces together. The frame itself will be metal, with a polyethylene 6mil lining (I found out mil is not the same as millimeter...). The front and back will be a wood frame, that way I can build a door going in and out.

 

 

I went and purchased some brick  and concrete blocks for the foundation. I wanted it to be slightly off the ground, that way it wouldn't be all soggy during the winter. The advantage of raising it off the ground is that if the pond floods, it won't be in the greenhouse. My dad and grandpa have always dug into the ground a foot or so, that way temperature is better maintained throughout the entire year, but I decided not to.

 

 

I plan tomorrow to lay down gravel with sand to make a flat base for the brick. The terrain itself is not flat, so I will have to terraform it. So far I've spent ~65 dollars, but there is still more to do.

 

 

 

If you have advice, I am happy to listen. If you have questions, I am willing to answer. It will be an ongoing project, but it the structure itself should be done by January.

 

P.s. I am getting paypal figured out for membership.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2016 by milesmiles902

[milesmiles902]

I wish I could edit my previous posting...I want bigger pictures.

[Lexinverts]

Welcome, Miles! I am in Corvallis too. I'd love to see this project in person.

[Paratore]

Very nice so far! I like the idea of combining everything into one greenhouse. Are you planing to use just natural sunlight for the corals or are you going to hang fixtures up? I am also in the corvallis area, I'm an undergraduate business student! So if you ever need help with the aquarium stuff let me know! Set up a few tanks and could help with setting yours up. You also have Robert in the area who is just wealth of information! Good luck with you build and keep us updated.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited December 15, 2015 by Paratore

[milesmiles902]

Welcome, Miles! I am in Corvallis too. I'd love to see this project in person.

 

Let me build it first.

 

Very nice so far! I like the idea of combining everything into one greenhouse. Are you planing to use just natural sunlight for the corals or are you going to hang fixtures up? I am also in the corvallis area, I'm an undergraduate business student! So if you ever need help with the aquarium stuff let me know! Set up a few tanks and could help with setting yours up. You also have Robert in the area who is just wealth of information! Good luck with you build and keep us updated.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I plan on using only natural sunlight for the majority of the year. I might add some minor light during the winter to supplement the corals, but that would be it.

 

The major problem I will be fighting throughout the year is temperature. I have a large fan that was hanging around that would will installed above the door, but that only provicdes a limited amount of evaporative cooling. Maybe flush out the warm air. I might look into a product called Aluminet, which reflects quite a bit of radiation. I have heard of people using cooled copper piping that pumps water which runs through the greenhouse, but I have no utter experience with that. We will see how year one goes.

 

My main goal is to really see how cheap I can be with the aquariums. The greenhouse I might spend a little more because it is going to last for years, but the aquariums should have no theoretical cost. I am going to take the excess water from my main tank and then put it into these. There will be no cost for lighting for most of the year, and other than that I will have to pay for carbon and pumps.

[Blackice]

but the aquariums should have no theoretical Cost!

 

Ahahahahahahaha now that's funny!!!!

[TheClark]

Looks like a very fun project, keep us posted!
 

[Fisher15]

miles,

 

I have drawings and plans for a coral greenhouse. The one I was going to build was designed in Canada and could generally go without supplemental heat.  It had glass only on the south face and the glass could be covered for sun screening and in the winter, foam covered the glass at night.  I still have some of my accumulated materials.

My goal was to raise coral for sale.  I have done this under lights, but the cost of lighting made it unprofitable.  I was going to use the sun, but then LEDs were perfected, and now it is less expensive to grow coral under lights, so I have dumped the idea of a greenhouse.

[Fisher15]

Another thought, everybody I have talked to that have built greenhouses like you plan, have found out you must heat the green house interior, and not expect the water to maintain your temperature.  Are you going to heat with natural gas?

[badxgillen]

Temperature is the biggest hurdle, then it is lighting consistency. In this area of the northwest the sun can be recluse for much of the year and then intense so sun screen in the summer and supplemental during the winter...Or go with some really undemanding corals.

[JManrow]

I did a lot of work with commercial greenhouses years ago, and maintaining an even temperature is difficult. A solar greenhouse seems most practical.  I have a manual from the State of Oregon Amity Fish House from back in the 1980s.  Study up on heat sinks, Placement of the greenhouse, angles of glass/plastic to the Sun, etc. I know if it is done correctly, very little supplemental heat is needed in the Winter. Do some searches on 'solar greenhouse aquaculture' and 'greenhouse coral propagation'.

It may be helpful, and prevent making some mistakes that other people have made.

[milesmiles902]

Another thought, everybody I have talked to that have built greenhouses like you plan, have found out you must heat the green house interior, and not expect the water to maintain your temperature.  Are you going to heat with natural gas?

 

I am not going to try to use natural gas. I think the best way to heat a greenhouse would be to heat a container full of water, then pipe that through the greenhouse. I would use electricity in that case.

 

Another thought I had would be to run halides during the winter. Where I would have the halides running at night when it is coolest, along with insulating the greenhouse. I could have one large halide for both the hydroponics and the aquariums. In reality, I really don't know, but I think it was be approachable.

 

I did a lot of work with commercial greenhouses years ago, and maintaining an even temperature is difficult. A solar greenhouse seems most practical.  I have a manual from the State of Oregon Amity Fish House from back in the 1980s.  Study up on heat sinks, Placement of the greenhouse, angles of glass/plastic to the Sun, etc. I know if it is done correctly, very little supplemental heat is needed in the Winter. Do some searches on 'solar greenhouse aquaculture' and 'greenhouse coral propagation'.

It may be helpful, and prevent making some mistakes that other people have made.

 

Thanks for the tip. Preventing mistakes is never a bad thing.

 

but the aquariums should have no theoretical Cost!

 

Ahahahahahahaha now that's funny!!!!

 

Theoretical is completely different than actual, but hey. Doesn't hurt to try.

[milesmiles902]

Day 2:

 

Gathered enough bricks to be able to lay a foundation. I don't have a way to transport the bricks except my car...so I used my car. In total, I had to make 3 trips to gather the necessary amount. I don't know if my car will ever recover from the sagging.

 

At the moment, the brick is very uneven, but I do like that there is a slight grade towards one corner. I thought about putting a wood perimeter around the base, but I can't fit one full length in my car. So, I started putting a lip of gravel around each side.

 

 

I eventually dug a pond in the second half of the day. It is only 1 foot deep, but it will suffice. There was shelving eventually incoporated into the pond on the greenhouse edge. It kind of looked like a seashell by the time I was done.

 

 

There was no pond liner at home depot, so I used polyethylene  3.5mil plastic. I folded it over enough that it was 6 layers thick. The perimeter probably will be filled with rocks to hide the liner. I am unsure about the best way to hide a pond liner. The problem I first ran into was that I put the pond on the wrong end of the greenhouse. Where it was built is the highest point of the greenhouse, with the lowest being on the opposite side. I was unsure about whether the pond would overfill and flood the greenhouse. So, I began filling.

 

 

Surprisingly, I just kept filling the pond and the water went under once it approached the edge of the brick. I put gravel below each brick to provide support and I think it created enough of a passage for the water. You can't really see it in this picture, but when I was running the hose at full blast, the water line was just about even with the bricks. It looked like there was no edge , removing the divide that the pond liner caused. In the winter months when there is a lot of rain, it will look continuous, and in the summer months it will be gone.

 

 

Tomorrow I plan to build the wood front and back. The door might be home-made. Who knows. Unless people have ideas.

[Blue Z Reef]

This is a cool concept and all, but I don't think you'll be able to keep the temps up (without significant heat from a source like gas), especially with a through floor pond letting cold in. I have been working on a greenhouse in my backyard for a while now (just for plants) and even though I'm using thermal pane windows I still wouldn't really trust it keeping a reef tank in the 76-80ish range.

 

Typically the end goal of a reef greenhouse is to have a large growing area that would otherwise be difficult/not cost effective to light. This seems like a multi hobby greenhouse that will be difficult to keep each individual area happy.

 

Props to ya if it works, always fun to build stuff at least  

[milesmiles902]

This is a cool concept and all, but I don't think you'll be able to keep the temps up (without significant heat from a source like gas), especially with a through floor pond letting cold in. I have been working on a greenhouse in my backyard for a while now (just for plants) and even though I'm using thermal pane windows I still wouldn't really trust it keeping a reef tank in the 76-80ish range.

 

Typically the end goal of a reef greenhouse is to have a large growing area that would otherwise be difficult/not cost effective to light. This seems like a multi hobby greenhouse that will be difficult to keep each individual area happy.

 

Props to ya if it works, always fun to build stuff at least  

 

You know...I am a crafty person. I'll figure something out. I found a really good youtube channel that describes a way to insulate a greenhouse in the winter. It is called "Bright Agrotech" and in his demonstration of insulating a greenhouse there was 1 foot of snow.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2fs6zx_a9Q

[milesmiles902]

Day 3:

 

Today was a slow day, but I am happy with what I accomplished. Even though it rained last night and there was no change of the foundation. I went and dug a pathway beneath the brick for water to flow through. I filled it with gravel and covered it back up. It goes from the highest side of the greenhouse to the lowest. I wanted to prepare for the worst and the best time to do it was now.

 

 

With the whole, I began placing a wood frame around the base. It gave me a way to squeeze the bricks together and make a flat face. The issue I came across is that Home Depot does not supply a 1''x1'' that is greater than 8 feet long. So, I temporary joined the faces together of the long sides with screws. I want to grab a metal joint holder that they use in houses and fasten it down. Screws worked temporarily, but aren't the strongest. I ended up really liking the look of the wood. Even though I said I wasn't going to do it earlier.

 

 

The front of face started to come alive late in the afternoon. I measured a normal door size and began building. Nothing is screwed together, just held by wedging. That is why it looks a little cockeyed. As it became dark, I started to use a 150W Kessil to light the work site. It actually worked surprisingly well.

 

 

The reason I had the Kessil was because I went and grabbed some aquariums and tons of lighting off of a guy from Craigslist. It was a snag in my opinion:

• 1 x 40 Gallon
• 2 x 30 Gallon
• 2 x 5 gallon
• 1 x 1 gallon
• Multiple mechanical water pumps and filters
• 5 different water heaters
• 2 x 150watt Kessils
• 1 x T5 HO, 36" lighting fixture
• Tons and Tons of Activated Carbon. I can now say that I am rich in Activated Carbon. Hopefully I don't get taxed.

They will all be going in the greenhouse.

[LC Scott]

If you can find a copy of this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Book-Coral-Propagation-Volume-Edition/dp/0980236509

It's a bit dated but I found it useful even though I only have a frag tank.

 

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk

[badguitarist]

For what its worth, I have a lifetime of commercial greenhouse experience. my folks owned a wholesale orchid nursery growing up and I continued with the idea and swapped out Orchids for corals and do that for a living. My folks have a 2700 square foot greenhouse built exactly like the one in your youtube channel. it still costs around 1000 bucks a month to heat with Propane all throughout the winter and thats only keeping it at 65 degrees.

 

My Coral Greenhouse is 500 square feet and is built with 16 mm triple wall Polycarbonate, with an R value of 2.0 this is the most energy efficient way to cover a greenhouse aside from very expensive acrylic panels. I still pay $200 a month in propane with commercial discounts and this is on top of a woodstove that burns hot 24/7.

 

While a greenhouse has no problem getting very warm on a cold clear day (mine was 95 degrees on the last sunny day) it will never get warm when it is a cloudy overcast day.

 

One way or another there will be no way of getting around heating the greenhouse in one way shape or form. In your case with those small tanks I would suggest heating the water directly and making sure your breaker(s) can handle the amperage all those submersible heaters will be pulling.

 

I am not saying this to discourage you, just giving some practical hands on experience. Your greenhouse may get very hot during the day but as soon as the sun goes down it will take no time flat for it to dip to a few degrees above outside temperature and the corals just wont be able to take those kinds of temp swings. Over all I say go for it, it will be a very rewarding experience. My only other advice is buy a PAR meter. once february rolls around corals will actually start bleaching from too much light!

[milesmiles902]

If you can find a copy of this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Book-Coral-Propagation-Volume-Edition/dp/0980236509

It's a bit dated but I found it useful even though I only have a frag tank.

 

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk

Thanks for the tip. I'll see if I can find it locally.

 

 

For what its worth, I have a lifetime of commercial greenhouse experience. my folks owned a wholesale orchid nursery growing up and I continued with the idea and swapped out Orchids for corals and do that for a living. My folks have a 2700 square foot greenhouse built exactly like the one in your youtube channel. it still costs around 1000 bucks a month to heat with Propane all throughout the winter and thats only keeping it at 65 degrees.

 

My Coral Greenhouse is 500 square feet and is built with 16 mm triple wall Polycarbonate, with an R value of 2.0 this is the most energy efficient way to cover a greenhouse aside from very expensive acrylic panels. I still pay $200 a month in propane with commercial discounts and this is on top of a woodstove that burns hot 24/7.

 

While a greenhouse has no problem getting very warm on a cold clear day (mine was 95 degrees on the last sunny day) it will never get warm when it is a cloudy overcast day.

 

One way or another there will be no way of getting around heating the greenhouse in one way shape or form. In your case with those small tanks I would suggest heating the water directly and making sure your breaker(s) can handle the amperage all those submersible heaters will be pulling.

 

I am not saying this to discourage you, just giving some practical hands on experience. Your greenhouse may get very hot during the day but as soon as the sun goes down it will take no time flat for it to dip to a few degrees above outside temperature and the corals just wont be able to take those kinds of temp swings. Over all I say go for it, it will be a very rewarding experience. My only other advice is buy a PAR meter. once february rolls around corals will actually start bleaching from too much light!

 

That is very interesting. I imagined it would cost a lot to heat, but not that much. The one I am building is roughly 8'x12' or 96sq. ft (Depending on inner or outer dimensions). Hopefully it is only 1/5 of the price of your greenhouse. I can handle that. :P

 

I was thinking that any water container would smooth the temperature swings throughout each day. Whether it is hot or cold, it would help get closer to the daily average (Whatever that may be).

 

I appreciate the comments. They help a lot.

 

Day 4/5

 

With my lack of carpentry skills...I began building the end walls. To my dismay, the metal frame is not perfectly square and because of that I couldn't build the end walls all at once, but rather screw stuff in and then cut. Something I realized along the way was the quality of my carpentry skills is treehouse grade, definitely not commercial. I have a door ready, but I have not screwed it on.

 

 

I went and swept sand into the cracks of the brick to prevent wobbling. Seems to have worked, but I might go and add more. The wall on the back got put together, but I ran out of screws before I could put the plywood on. So, I decided to just lay them along the frame.

 

 

I have enough wood lying around to double layer the walls. I am unsure of whether to stuff something between the walls for insulation.

 

The middle will be entirely double layer plastic that is blown up. I read a paper that said the R value ranges from 1.7 up to 2.0 for polyethylene, depending on the separation between layers. What I really want to know is how much a difference between the outside temperature and the inside is possible. That is my question for all of you, if the walls were perfectly sealed (maybe insulation...maybe), what kind of temperature differences do you think I could achieve? I want to use electric heaters of all types.

 

Also, I have some acrylic lying around from when I built my sump, that I might put up to the ponds edge. If I fit it snug enough, I might be able to create a seal with the water line and the wood frame. If that makes sense.

 

There was a moment along the way that I thought about giving up, but I am not going to. I will make a greenhouse and I will attempt to grow coral!!! Now whether it grows or not, that's another question.

[milesmiles902]

Well. I may have figured it out....if there was an R value of 2.0 m²K/W and the inside temperature was 22°C (76°F) and it was 0°C (32°F) outside. In the end I would lose 11watts/m²...the total area of the middle sides and roof is 252 ft² or 76m². I would lose 844 watts in total (Joules/second, in reality per second). I have a space heater that is 1500 watts. Maybe just a space heater would work XD

 

I guess with these R values, you can go and calculate all side and figure out heat loss in total. What a nifty thing.

 

***My question still stands.

 

Edit:

Price of electricity here is: 0.1076 $/kW*h, so I would pay 67.96 a month. If I ran a 844 watt object for a month, non-stop. I would pay ~65.00, which isn't too bad...maybe the free light will work in my favor.

Edited December 19, 2015 by milesmiles902

[Higher Thinking]

Well. I may have figured it out....if there was an R value of 2.0 m²K/W and the inside temperature was 22°C (76°F) and it was 0°C (32°F) outside. In the end I would lose 11watts/m²...the total area of the middle sides and roof is 252 ft² or 76m². I would lose 844 watts in total (Joules/second, in reality per second). I have a space heater that is 1500 watts. Maybe just a space heater would work XD

 

I guess with these R values, you can go and calculate all side and figure out heat loss in total. What a nifty thing.

 

***My question still stands.

 

Edit:

Price of electricity here is: 0.1076 $/kW*h, so I would pay 67.96 a month. If I ran a 844 watt object for a month, non-stop. I would pay ~65.00, which isn't too bad...maybe the free light will work in my favor.

I definitely appreciate the ambition! Too bad I don't know anything about insulation or R-values. This is a fairly large undertaking. I know it will get frustrating at times, but just remember: you are venturing into an arena where not many people have in this area. This comes with many unforseen hurdles, disappointments, and struggles. However, it also comes with great reward if you're successful. And if you're not, you can always be proud of the effort and ambition!

[badguitarist]

Heating can definitely get expensive. a space or a cadet heater would probably heat that space fine, I don't know how it would do on the coldest nights though. You might look into workshop type propane heaters, it may end up being a bit more efficient.

 

Regarding water vessels stabilizing temperatures at night, this is very true, unfortunately in that small of a space I doubt there will be enough water volume to make much difference.

 

if you haven't put the interior sheets of plywood up yet I would for sure add some sort of insulation to the walls. Anywhere you can insulate or otherwise cut out heat loss do it. it will help on the heating bill a ton. I would also get a few cans of spray foam and use that to fill any and all gaps in the sheating. especially if the frame is bent there will probably be some gaps where the plastic hooks up to the end walls

 

On a fun note, on Saturday the greenhouse was 85 degrees all day long and I went to build a fire before it got dark and within about 20 minutes the greenhouse went from 85 degrees to 101 degrees, yikes! also took the PAR meter out there and even in December on a sunny day I was getting readings of 200 in the sun and about 80 in the shade. This is plenty of light to grow corals.

[Blue Z Reef]

Just a thought after reading BadGuitarist's post - you are so close to the house, what about a water loop that goes inside the house to a large barrel/reservoir. You then have increased system water volume and the added benefit of shared heat from inside your house on part of your water source. Just spitballing here...

[milesmiles902]

I realized today that when I read a DIY, I read it to learn something. Thus, I am going to try to add more facts or things I learned in the process of this build. I have been building more, but not enough to post pictures. It has been raining a lot.

 

I definitely appreciate the ambition! Too bad I don't know anything about insulation or R-values. This is a fairly large undertaking. I know it will get frustrating at times, but just remember: you are venturing into an arena where not many people have in this area. This comes with many unforseen hurdles, disappointments, and struggles. However, it also comes with great reward if you're successful. And if you're not, you can always be proud of the effort and ambition!

 

I didn't know anything about R values before either, but it is a pretty easy concept. A R value is the ability of an object to prevent heat transfer. Different things, have different R values. I was strolling down the insulation aisle in home depot and they are all over. Values ranging from 0.9 all the way up to ~30 for foam. It is pretty interesting how someone put in the work to go and measure thermal resistance for all types of objects.

 

Also, I encountered so much frustration today. I don't know what kept me building. GRRR!!! For all those that are going to build something, make sure the frame is aligned from the beginning. Due to the frame being uneven, every single board has to be uneven. It is a systemic problem that I have learned about the hard hard way. Measure twice, cut once. *sigh*

 

Thanks for the support. It helps.

 

Heating can definitely get expensive. a space or a cadet heater would probably heat that space fine, I don't know how it would do on the coldest nights though. You might look into workshop type propane heaters, it may end up being a bit more efficient.

 

Regarding water vessels stabilizing temperatures at night, this is very true, unfortunately in that small of a space I doubt there will be enough water volume to make much difference.

 

if you haven't put the interior sheets of plywood up yet I would for sure add some sort of insulation to the walls. Anywhere you can insulate or otherwise cut out heat loss do it. it will help on the heating bill a ton. I would also get a few cans of spray foam and use that to fill any and all gaps in the sheating. especially if the frame is bent there will probably be some gaps where the plastic hooks up to the end walls

 

On a fun note, on Saturday the greenhouse was 85 degrees all day long and I went to build a fire before it got dark and within about 20 minutes the greenhouse went from 85 degrees to 101 degrees, yikes! also took the PAR meter out there and even in December on a sunny day I was getting readings of 200 in the sun and about 80 in the shade. This is plenty of light to grow corals.

 

I think it would help if I added maybe two 55 gallon barrels that were painted black. Even 5 degrees or so. Many greenhouses online do something of the sort, but I am unsure about how efficient it is.

 

The funny thing was at home depot I had a conversation with a worker about using the canned spray foam as insulation. We thought that a single can may have done 15sq ft at 6 inches deep. So, I went and bought a few cans. To find out, it doesn't do that much. It maybe did 4sq ft at 3 inches deep. Now I just use it to seal any large cracks in the frame. It works really well for that. I did go with a polystyrene insulation. The R value is 13 for the thickness I am using, and it was cheaper than fiberglass insulation. The advantage of the polystyrene was that it is relatively waterproof. If the fiberglass got wet from either the rain or humidity, it wouldn't be as effective.

 

Wow! 200 par? That is amazing. May I ask what type of corals you have in your greenhouse?

 

Just a thought after reading BadGuitarist's post - you are so close to the house, what about a water loop that goes inside the house to a large barrel/reservoir. You then have increased system water volume and the added benefit of shared heat from inside your house on part of your water source. Just spitballing here...

 

That really is a good idea. Although, I would have to hardline it below the house to the garage, and I would have to do it when the roommates aren't around. Another problem is, my roommates don't really want to pay to heat the house during the winter, or cool it during the summer.....just another thing I have to battle. Water volume seems to make sense, but I need to figure out a way to effectively use it. After adding the plywood to the back wall, and not being able to see the pond's outside portion. I might throw some type of thermal covering over the outside it when winter comes. That way there is less transfer to the outside world, and it probably would stay somewhat warmer.

 

I am really trying to make the end plates both water proof and air tight. My dream is for it to be so sealed, that there is a pressure difference between the inside and outside. :P It's ok to dream, right?

 

I think spit balling is a good idea. I appreciate it.

 

 

[badguitarist]

the drums will help but not a ton, there are lots of ways to cut down on heating. most of the ways you will see online are more for vegetable farming where the greenhouse has to be above freezing, not 80+degrees. but that being said if space allows any extra water volume will help stabilize night time temps.

 

regarding what types of corals the short answer is all of them. some do better in the winter some do better in the summer. many stony corals wont survive winter without supplemental light. I had about 80 cyphastrea start to bleach last month because they weren't getting enough light. put a halide on them and now they are fine. just because I get PAR levels of 200 on a nice sunny day, there are cloudy days where I get PAR readings of 20-30, get enough cloudy days in a row and corals start to go downhill. on the flip side things like mushrooms love this weather and look incredible. in the summer I have to put 4 layers of 20% shade cloth overt their tub just to keep them from dying, even with all that they still don't grow well.