Lexinverts Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 I don't know of any other T5 fixtures like the ATI sunpower available in the U.S. Do you? It sounds like you are making your comparison between ATI Sunpower and everything else. My Red Sea T5 fixture is nice, but it is no ATI Sunpower. I could amend my comments to say that for an average T5 fixture with nice bulbs, compared to a decent LED retrofit with Cree LEDs, I see better SPS color overall under the T5s. I could probably do better with my LEDs if I swapped out some of my neutral whites for cyan, etc... As Bombertech suggested in his talk to the club at TPA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClark Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Yes, very hard to compare apples to apples with so many choices (Emerald525s point) Literally LEDs vary wildly. I am sure bulb selection etc varies with T5s as well. Ah well, all this stuff has been debated to death for years These are probably the most non-controversial conclusions in general... - You can have great growth and color with Metal Halide (plenty of great examples) - You can have great growth and color with T5s (plenty of great examples) - You can have great growth and color with LEDs (plenty of great examples) - You can have great growth and color with any mix of the above(plenty of great examples) - If your water chemistry is poor, the fixture may not help Lastly - Not every LED is equal, although most are similar enough to get decent results. I am thrilled with my son's stock 90 dollar fixture. I bet MH and T5 guys would all claim the same. Not all are equal, but most are in the ballpark if you stick with popular ones... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsonmfg Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 I don't know of any other T5 fixtures like the ATI sunpower available in the U.S. Do you? It sounds like you are making your comparison between ATI Sunpower and everything else. My Red Sea T5 fixture is nice, but it is no ATI Sunpower. I could amend my comments to say that for an average T5 fixture with nice bulbs, compared to a decent LED retrofit with Cree LEDs, I see better SPS color overall under the T5s. I could probably do better with my LEDs if I swapped out some of my neutral whites for cyan, etc... As Bombertech suggested in his talk to the club at TPA. There's definitely other options that are available in the US. Pacific Sun makes a very nice high end T5 fixture that I would say is comparable to the Sunpower. Sfiligoi still has t5 stealth fixtures floating around the US I believe. They might have lost that distrubution when AO went under though, I'm not too sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsonmfg Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 I should also mention the stock t5 unit on Travis' Red Sea Max-S has proven to be a very good fixture as well, although it can be a little finicky on what bulbs it'll run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexinverts Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Yup, now I see that. Thanks. The DIUNA. I guess I missed them before because they seem to only be available on their website. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsonmfg Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Yes, very hard to compare apples to apples with so many choices (Emerald525s point) Literally LEDs vary wildly. I am sure bulb selection etc varies with T5s as well. Ah well, all this stuff has been debated to death for years These are probably the most non-controversial conclusions in general... - You can have great growth and color with Metal Halide (plenty of great examples) - You can have great growth and color with T5s (plenty of great examples) - You can have great growth and color with LEDs (plenty of great examples) - You can have great growth and color with any mix of the above(plenty of great examples) - If your water chemistry is poor, the fixture may not help Lastly - Not every LED is equal, although most are similar enough to get decent results. I am thrilled with my son's stock 90 dollar fixture. I bet MH and T5 guys would all claim the same. Not all are equal, but most are in the ballpark if you stick with popular ones... I mention T5 more because obviously T5 and halides are what I have the most experience with, as for t5 bulbs they're pretty similar across the board if you compare most of the popular bulbs, they all tend to produce slightly different spectrums but their par numbers are fairly close. The big factor with T5 is the reflectors, the ballasts and the active cooling. There's a few comparisons out there that show the actual output numbers and it's surprising how big the difference can be. Most people probably don't remember this but t5 went through the same struggles led did at first, everyone in the US said t5's couldn't keep sps alive and there was no way they would grow corals... Look at how things have changed lol. It seems to me (I might be wrong here) but with led it's the diode that makes more of a difference than the driver, although after having the ATI Sirius led fixture I'm definitely a fan of reflectors over optics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClark Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Ah, some interesting points and history there. For LEDs, diodes definitely matter, but often the focus is more on spectrum because of the unbelievable flexibility to mix and match anything in any ratio. Experiments that were not really possible before are common place by mixing spectrums, eliminating certain colors, etc etc etc... One can definitely spend hours reading on everyone's perspective on the ideal mix of LED spectrums... That is the nice part of starting with a stock fixture and just doing some tweaking. And it may be the daunting part of LEDs, so many options for stock fixtures, tweaking, and complete DIY... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsonmfg Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 (edited) Yup, now I see that. Thanks. The DIUNA. I guess I missed them before because they seem to only be available on their website. They don't get a massive amount of distribution or advertising here in the US and are still off of most people's radar because of it. I've considered trying out their T5/LED hybrid fixture for a while. However I'm finding that the more I learn about led's that what I want to accomplish needs to be done in a DIY fixture because what I want isn't commercially available. Pacific Sun is really popular amongst the europeans and the fixtures have definitely proven themselves. Krzysztof Tyrc has been running their fixtures for quite a while, the video linked he was running the Diuna but he's now been running the hybrid with even more impressive results as well. Edited August 5, 2015 by Arsonmfg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenbasketreef Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 I have been in the business for quite some time and has used PC, T8, T5, MH, and now LED. It is not the question if any of the fore mentioned reef light source will grow or color corals better. They each serve the purpose for their time. As technology progress so does the knowledge to utilize this technology. The more sophisticated the more end user understanding required. T5 & MH is more plug and play lighting, it is very rare we make mistake with these two light source and available option is not that much to select the right combination. Less and less manufacture producing the bulb and eventually they will become obsolete. LED is a new breed of light source that produce by many manufactures and each with their separate binning or non binning process. With that we have quite a lot of variances in regards to nm spectrum and live span of the diodes itself. Blue led for example will vary spectrum wise base on brand. It is not a plug and play. We have to know what combination of diodes and what brand being put into a fixture, we also need to understand how to color balance our fixture. It is way worst when you have only 2 channels to balance most of the affordable fixture. This is where the issue that some people having problem or not getting good result from led fixture. It is more complex than what we used to with just plug and play. Fixture design is another whole issue that need a thread by itself. GB is 100% led for about 3-4 years now. We have china made led with china diodes, china made led with USA diodes, and DIY. IME china made led with china diodes lasted only 2.5 years, ymmv, the big issue I see is spectrum shift and also intensity lost. Yup that is pretty much sum it up, diodes rating are lies, even worst with china led. Of course some will argue that with cooling it will increase diodes live span. Well for a very simple thing as checking the fan and making sure they run properly to cool the unit, how many have even bother to do this? I would bet not many. When the fan failed the led fixture will be toast. It is tacky to rate the led fixture for many years of operation when the fan itself only rated for 2 years or so live span. My suggestion for those running led fixture have a fan or two on hand. One thing I know for sure when we switch from T5 & MH to all LEd fixture, our electric bill went down by 45%. That is significant monthly saving for a company with high electric bill. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefnjunkie Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Well said Rudy and I agree completely, in my opinion LED will be a better light option with the ability to tweak the spectrum you want but if you want that ability and a quality LONG lasting unit, you need to pay for it, meaning it's not cheap. To touch on previous post, I hand intended on running MH on my current build with T12 actinic until I ran across a tank in some Eastern country lit by LED. The were no off the shelf fixtures capable of growing more than algae at that time (IMO) so I built my first DIY unit and hung it side by side to my 250 watt radium and ran a side by side comparison for I think 3 months or more. That 24"x8.5" fixture had 60 diodes with a 2:1 ration Royal Blue to Cool White (back then those were the colors LOL) and cost ~600.00 After the side by side comparison I realized I liked the shimmer better than Radium, the color better than Radium, and the growth was equal to maybe better, not worse thats for sure. Anyway I could go on and on, and I actually had in past years but all those posts got lost in the site crash and I don't have it in me anymore LOL. I run the OR Artics over my display and love them, I run D120s over one of my frag tanks and love those fixtures even more (acruall the best out of all 5 tanks). I run DIY over 2 other tanks and am very happy with them, and the last tank is a hybrid of my DIY and 3 AR fixtures which I like as well as the other 3 tanks. IMO LED will continue to get better and better, T5 and MH will be what they are now. I will say I run T5 over my acans and am happier with those results than when I had them under LED, but that's a spectrum thing. blah blah blah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PowderBlue Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) I think most people's issue will be creating that "perfect" spectrum with an LED. I have spent probably 2 hours tweaking just my AI prime over a 10 gallon trying to get a good color with a strong amount of whites and green to level out the whites, and blues to make the coral pop, then it's how much uv should we run, how much red should we run, how much...... it never ends lol Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk Edited August 6, 2015 by PowderBlue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenbasketreef Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 No perfect led fixture that will fit all, tank parameter or even water clarity make a big diff in lighting not only for led but also true for all other light source. As long as we cover the basic spectrum for growth and color that should be a good starting point. Most available fixture already have good base but poor placement or channel design that making impossible to tweak properly. That is why led fixture best run at 100% all channel for better balance. Adjusting height is the key, but if space is limited then need to be able to dim down properly to get good balance. Again no can't do if provided only with 2 knobs adjustment. There will never be enough space in the fixture to put violet diodes to satisfy the amount available in the ocean per square feet area about 50-60feet deep. As much as you can put them in the better you are. True violet spectrum usually refer to as UV will not affect the over all color that our eyes can see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectra Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Well I would love the ATI T5/LED combo but at 1200 bucks!!!!!!!!!!! Plus might be a little overkill on the Fusion 20 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishboys Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 Brads tank is a perfect example of inexpensive led's working very well, although would it be even better under halides supplemented by t5 or custom leds?? I question wether or not he would attempt to keep his higher end wild color morphs under the OR led's vs his custom diy stuff and would they keep those colors under the OR led's? Also what you feed and how you feed does play a big part into color and growth... I should have my diy led strip done next week so it'll be interesting to see what the addition of a few specific led's will do in my tank. I look forward to seeing your tank soon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Nice discussion about this thanks fishboys for posting this up! Right now I still think ATI with LED strip is the best looking light around depending on what bulb combination you use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishboys Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 Nice discussion about this thanks fishboys for posting this up! Right now I still think ATI with LED strip is the best looking light around depending on what bulb combination you use. When I first asked the question about L.E.D vs MH about 3 months ago I didn't get no where near this In depth of responses. I like this thread much better. Gives the D.I.Y and out of the box side of LED's plus more in depth of the T- whatever size and the MH. The more information we have from all sides the more we all learn. My head is so thick I might not learn from it but most others should. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectra Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 ATI combo over a reefer 170 That might be the ticket....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 When I first asked the question about L.E.D vs MH about 3 months ago I didn't get no where near this In depth of responses. I like this thread much better. Gives the D.I.Y and out of the box side of LED's plus more in depth of the T- whatever size and the MH. The more information we have from all sides the more we all learn. My head is so thick I might not learn from it but most others should. LOL you are learning you just are set in your ways! Rudy (Goldenbasket) it's also nice to have you back too to chime in with your years of experience ATI combo over a reefer 170 That might be the ticket....... Very nice combination! I would agree! Maybe even the reefer 250! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectra Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) OH! Reefer 250.......anyone want a piano........I could make it fit then I could even throw in a Fusion 20 to sweeten the deal oh the would kill me...... Edited August 7, 2015 by spectra 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenbasketreef Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Borrowing pictures from another forum, this is a way to mod 8-T5 TEK Light with led fixture in the center. TEK Light is much cheaper route than ATI. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectra Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 But the ATI is a much sexier light I had a Tek light years ago and they are nice but not the ATIs...... That is a great idea on the TEK light though. Looks like it would not be a issue to mod it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merritt180 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Im sorry to say but the halide time is far from over leds are the future but its not today given time maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragged Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I ditched my LED's and went back to MH. Sad to say my tank is much happier now. Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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