What do you want out of this club?

[steveweast]

got a little skimming done, got the general idea, i think.

 

Groups/clubs/societies are great, but in the 21st century most of the communication needs for a community such as this are typically provided via online resources such as this forum I think. Lots of different events, speakers, and the overhead involved seemed more justified in the past, before da internets.

 

It's actually a wonderful thing. This new medium facilitates communication, collaboration, education, trading, selling, etc....and consequently the necessity for events involving effort, time, fuel, travel, and money decreases. I don't necessarily see it as isolating, since nothing is stopping anyone from meeting up with other people to trade etc...and they do.

 

Lots of ideas may sound exciting in theory (Borneman coming to speak, for example) but really seem less than practical when you consider the alternative. When I heard Eric was coming I honestly though, why not instead have a Borneman thread on our forum, a group chat, or even a webcast. Something that does not rquire travel, hotel, fuel, etc. Effortless communication and collaboration regardless of location is one of the biggest benefits of the medium, imo.

 

I've have noticed that every once in a while this same question seems to come up, at least since 2000. Usually after an event like this one, I think.

 

 

Piero....you are right to an extent. Most, if not all, information and answers can be found on the net. With that being the case, the club meetings need to offer activities that the net cannot.....basically human interaction. This is nothing new....the net was going strong during the days of high turnouts too.....it's just the events seemed to have a broader appeal back then. When I went to the Scott Michael presentation in Seattle, I really enjoyed it. It was NOT a lecture....but rather, a presentation....as was Tyree's. It had lots of pretty pictures of fish and coral that he took that appealed to everyone at every level. The pictures, coupled with his diving stories, made for an enjoyable evening.....and of course, there was food, raffles, a place for folks to talk who didn't want to see the presentation, etc.

 

The net can offer alot....but, it can't offer everything.....and the club should offer events that the net doesn't do well. An analogy would be....Would you rather be home drinking alone...or at the local pub with friends ?

[steveweast]

As for speakers.....I think they have their place and can be of benefit. The cost of a speaker isn't that high. All require a plane ticket.....some require a small fee....and a place to stay. In general, you're looking at $500 +/- for a speaker. The key is choosing a speaker that fits the demographics of your club. Boston reefers or Bay Area reefers, or a club in LA can bring in anyone on any topic because their membership is so large...that even an esoteric speaker with find an audience of a 100.....but.....our club is small and, as a result, must choose a speaker that has a broader appeal. I can really only think of a two or three speakers that would fit those parameters for this club. The first step of this club is to determine who is its demographics and what do they want.

[Michael7979]

As for speakers.....I think they have their place and can be of benefit. The cost of a speaker isn't that high. All require a plane ticket.....some require a small fee....and a place to stay. In general' date=' you're looking at $500 +/- for a speaker. The key is choosing a speaker that fits the demographics of your club. Boston reefers or Bay Area reefers, or a club in LA can bring in anyone on any topic because their membership is so large...that even an esoteric speaker with find an audience of a 100.....but.....our club is small and, as a result, must choose a speaker that has a broader appeal. I can really only think of a two or three speakers that would fit those parameters for this club. The first step of this club is to determine who is its demographics and what do they want.[/quote']

 

Steve, I would be more than open to you giving me any ideas on which speakers you think are interesting. We can then take them to the club and have a vote or use that to continue a discussion about them. Please tell me thru PM or ........

 

This goes for anyone else that has a speaker that they want to offer up for discussion.

[Theron]

I am no longer local to the club. I moved out of town a few months ago, but now I am mostly involved on the website here.

 

When I was in town and I first started attending meetings, this club was very laid back. Just a bunch of people meeting at someone's home. We got together and talked about our tanks, it was very social. I really liked to see different peoples tanks and seeing how they did certain things. We then started getting more organized and became a non profit. People payed dues and we got some officers and it was getting more structured. It seemed great, we had a forum on TRT and we had a lot of great threads going on there.

 

For me the height of it all was the BBQ at Steve's house. I think the Tyree thing was perfect timing for him, a lot of us were ready to blow some money on some great corals from California. His topics were interesting, in fact I think we got to vote from a list of topics. My wife even had a great time meeting people and seeing Steve's tank. And at this time we did not have big banners and such, most of us learned about the site from word of mouth. It was just a great place to meet other people and learn from each other.

 

For me it all started going down hill from there. A lot of people started getting out of the hobby and the club. Officers started dropping like flies. We had so many attitudes on TRT they had to add more mods to keep an eye on us. It was not as fun anymore. Meetings became all about door prizes and free stuff (it seemed like it). A huge emphasis was on getting new members. I think we should focus on making the club fun. If we build good club they will come.

 

I say work on more local speakers. I think we have some pretty good resources for that in the club. I remember hearing all the praise about the photoshop lecture that Andy gave.

 

Just recently we and a member that was a teacher and wanted to set up a cold water reef. He asked for help and ended up getting a sweet tank donated, and I think some other stuff. His classroom would be a great place for a meeting some day. I thought that was a great use of sponsor donations. It is actually going to get used. The problem with big raffle items is some people will not have the room or funds to set it up and it will just get sold.

 

What about doing our own studies. Maybe we can team up with LFS to so something. They can provide some space and electricity and we donate some time to perform the study. Maybe we can do our own salt study. We could get some national publicity. I think we have a chemist in the group.

 

What about setting up a cold water reef tank at one of the LFS. Maybe they would get some traffic into the store from people checking out the tank cool tank. We could put some information on the tank about the club to educate people about our club.

 

Those are just a few ideas.

 

Theron

[josh]

This lecture was on a holiday weekend. That probably took a chunk out of the attendees. We have long standing plans every year this weekend and I'm sure lots of other folks had stuff going on. I like borneman but had no desire to hear about salt and O2. To sit through a lecture my ADD self has to be really interested in the topic. As reefgeek put it, my salt works fine.

 

I'd like to see more things locally in my area. Im in eugene and the four hour round trip to portland for a meeting is a long one. I've got to be pretty excited about the event to make it. It seems like you could have local LFS involved setting up monthly meetings in your particular area (open to all of course) and then every two or three months have a big one in the portland area. I think a tour of tanks would be sweet. I know there are beautiful tanks in eugene that I'll never get to see otherwise. I'd have people to my house for some potluck afternoon of tank drooling, frag exchange, and senseless eating.

 

In my area the LFS's dont have much to do with this club. None of them ever told me about it. I found it randomly searching the web. Seems mostly a place to sell stuff.

[JimmyK]

I am usually a "lurker" and rarely post. But I thought I would add my two cents. I had planed on attending and renewing my membership. Like others, I am not a Borneman fan but I was going to attend to show support for the effort of organizers and the club. Busy work week means busy weekend and I picked time with my son rather than Borneman. He is only two and would not have enjoyed the lecture. I have not been to a meeting since last year just because of time issues. However, I do like the idea of doing joint events with PSMAS.

I also notice that I do not see alot of the people on the board that used to post. I don't think they are out of the hobby and miss their posts and input. My question is where did they go and why?

[WAVES]

This club can only grow with the help of its LFS sponsors' date=' they have the grunt of the traffic as far as reef enthusiasts, not that they are the problem but that is where I think there is a loss for information sharing, the LFS is afraid they will loose a customer to another sponsor, quite far from the truth if you think about it, actually exactly opposite. NEVER, I repeat NEVER have I went to a LFS and they recommend me to this site, I have been to 20-25 from Cali to Oregon never once. Its sad, really, this site could encourage educated purchases and start a fire of purchases that could lead to successful tanks and people that are happy to tell about their LFS experience's to others that see them that wish to get in the hobby but are afraid due to lack knowledge. Its to bad that I also use my LFS at a supplier only and that useful info come only here and there when I come in, its almost as if the info is only to tease me and spike a purchase and hope that it does so that I buy again. Yes I read what I said and I will leave it at that. I would like to think our sponsors don't do that, and quite honestly our sponsors are probably the best of the bunch, but you have to gain knowledge before a purchase, that goes for anything not just fish and corals, think about your car? Your computer? the products you consume? There all out to get your cash, its business as usual, some care about you and some like to think they do. We are all here to help, not sell out your store. I support my LFS that support the hobby. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE. I have given sales to LFS adding to 10's of thousands PER CUSTOMER, yes per customer. But some still think its about something else. Maybe we should reconsider our LFS account support? They need to support our growth as much as we support theirs. Its a two way road. I think there should be expectations of the store as well.[/quote']

 

This is my poorly written response.

 

 

2 years ago I was a hobbiest making a decent income, I decided to quit that and do something that I love and want to do. I am now in this to put food on the table and pay the mortgage. There is very little the club offers me to help me do this. I do what I can for the club, I have helped facilitate group buys (which ended up costing me money, about $2-3 per item) Ive hosting meetings (which also cost me money) etc. But what has the club done for me? Well it has allowed fellow reefnuts to discuss my service, my products, and share about interactions.

 

let me cut to the chase. Last time I hosted a meeting I sold 2 corals to 2 people, I had the worst Sunday in business ever. the soda I bought cost more than the money I made, and that doesnt take overhead into consideration. I would love to offer to host more meetings, but I simply cant afford it!

 

I have no motivation to send people to the club. One of the primary focuses for many people here is to get "the best deal possible". That can rarely happen at the LFS. People go to great lengths to go around buying from me or another LFS. Ive got people telling me how they set up a psedo business to buy wholesale, or spend 2 hours talking to me about lighting then go buy it on Ebay. I know this is part of doing business these days, the internet is competition and the only way to be successful is to offer something else the internet can not offer.

 

My point is simply that if you expect the LFS to send people to the club, then the club has to do something to send business in my door. I have had people find me from the here, and I know it does help business by allowing me to post stocklists, pricing, etc. But over all the club is about saving members money, which may not include buying from the LFS. But as a few realize, supporting us in the long run does support your hobby.

 

Ryan at Advanced recently tried to help facilitate a group buy, many choose to save 10 cents a pound to go around him rather than buy it from him.

 

I know I wont be earning any addtional business from this post, but I do want to make this club a better place, so I thought my side of the story might help come to a better resolution.

 

 

Why would I send my customers to a place where a primary goal (for many not all) is to take business away from me?

[Nyles]

I will only respond that I am only a customer of your store and Advanced because of this site introducing me to them, so I think this site has done a lot for you as well. You can thank Jay for introducing me to you, Well your store anyways. LOL. That also goes for Tidalzone maint, saltwater fanta seas, and a few others that I don't choose to shop at for convenience reasons.

[Nyles]

Also note that I would not be keeping SPS corals if it was not for this site as well, and that in itself is a bonus to a store for a sale. Sorry to get off track, and I am not trying to make this the LFS problem I just think they as a group could help out more. They have most of the newbie traffic coming in and I would have respected any store that referred me, yes people shop around but they would do that anyways. I don't come to this site to get a DEAL, or cut out a store, I come here for information, to meet people in the hobby, and to share experiences and maybe help in education now and then because I feel I need to give back to a place that has helped me so much.

[Piero]

The net can offer alot....but, it can't offer everything.....and the club should offer events that the net doesn't do well. An analogy would be....Would you rather be home drinking alone...or at the local pub with friends ?

 

I agree. When considering events and such we should make sure that whatever the perceived benefits are, they are not already offered by the net.

[spayne]

Jay and I were talking about having a meeting in Eugene on Saturday for the southern members then having the regular Portland area meeting. Of course, we'd go to both. This is something we just thought of and haven't discussed with the board. It might be worthwhile to see who all would be willing to open their homes to a meeting and go back to the roots of the club. Again, something that the board would need to discuss.

 

Joel, as always you bring up valid points. I know that the club does ask a lot of all of the stores and I do feel bad knowing that you guys are getting the short end of the stick more often than not. I appreciate all of you and everything you do for us, but that doesn't exactly put food on the table now does it? Jay and I were thinking that perhaps instead of asking you guys to plug the club, maybe we would see if we could put business cards on your counters. That would most likely be more effective than the flyers. And of course this would be per the owner's approval and the blessing of the board. It seems like we have a lot to discuss!

[JManrow]

Aside from speakers, some of the most memorable and successful meetings prior to the forming of PNWMAS, were Workshops, or Speakers that had Workshops. David Sinn, a biologist at PSU gave a talk on his behavioral studies with Octopus bimaculatus. His lecture took place at PSU(there was no charge), followed by a visit to the lab where the eggs were hatched, He had several tiered overflow tidepool tanks where he conducted his observations.

 

The Coral Farming Workshop (1997)with guest speakers LeRoy and Sally Jo Headlee from GARF had just over 60 people in attendance. It was held in a members home(Dwight Guss) and there was a $10 fee per person(members and non-members) raising over $500 for the club. I gave LeRoy $60 to help cover his gas expense driving from Boise (he was driving to Calif.). He demonstrated techniques in fragging SPS and Soft Corals(new at the time) in two 30 gallon breeder tanks, which I still have.

 

 

Dana Riddle, the author of "The Captive Reef" has visited Portland twice. He presented results of his studies of lighting on the reef and in the aquarium. He also introduced a new term to us in the hobby: PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation). He brought along a Quantum Meter with a submersible sensor, and offered to measure the light in anyone's home tank in the area during his visit! He also discussed the necessity of proper water movement and it's effect on coral growth in the aquarium. This visit was at a member's home of Kim Peters, where he was a guest for 3 days. Many times a guest speaker will be glad to be to stay at the home of a member if he is asked.

 

Dana also gave a presentation the next night at the Greater Portland Aquarium Society (GPAS) monthly meeting. Cost for round trip airfare from Georgia was somewhere around $300 then we took up a collection at the home meeting and recovered close to $200. Another visit, he spoke at the Annual GPAS Fish Show.

 

We, along with GPAS, began the behind the scenes tours at Oregon Coast Aquarium. It was not a structured, formal tour then, but included what is seen now, plus seeing a few more things. I feel we should become more involved with the OCA and Hatfield Marine Science (HMSC) center year round through correspondence and set up some local workshops.

 

A sales rep from Top Fathom, then located in Eugene, Oregon, brought several skimmers to a meeting. This again was in a members home.

 

We organized a study of test kits(the then new Marine Lab and Reef Lab kits) for Red Sea in Houston, Texas. Our results helped with revision of their kits. Perhaps we can do some more home tank studies and work with various products.

 

Most of the Marine Study Group meeting took place in a member's home, and the host always enjoyed showing off his tank setup. Perhaps our Sponsor LFS could show some of the "behind the scenes" workings of a store system.

 

One last thing... when we started the Marine Study Group back in 1995, it was basically that. It was basically myself and Don Winn, of GPAS, that had to do what all the PNWMAS Board members are doing now. Theoretically, it should should be much easier with 10 Board Members! We studied the many technical terms now commonly used, the various water additives and why they were necessary, and covered the general history of reefkeeping. We had printed handouts, we read and discussed each one at most home meeting. while there was quite a bit of work involved by all in the group back then, I feel it helped form the foundation for a strong interest in the hobby in this area. There were only a couple of stores to buy our livestock and supplies then. We also worked closely with SEABAY and PSAS in contacting Guest Speakers and organizing Marine Conferences in Seattle.

 

Hey - we had the occasional laid-back meeting of checking out the host's tank, talking about our own tanks, and eating food. Some of these were the best meetings. We always tried to balance the study meetings with fun too! There was not much reef info online in 1995, and most information came from magazines, speakers, and marine conferences. We had a monthly Newsletter. This was mailed out by the 10th of every month. I began posting it online in 1998 at the Marine Study Group website, thanks to Todd Hilson of the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife. The best forum around was http://www.reefs.org Check it out sometime.

[Piero]

somewhat offtopic, but tangent: I do doubt LFSs will be open to promoting clubs and the internet for educational purposes. There is probably more perceived profit potential from uneducated hobbyists, especially since this is not a longterm hobby. It's a cyclical industry in terms of participation, so businesses know that the majority of customers are not still in the hobby after five years anyhow. Economic reality? Inconvenient truth? Idunno. But I'd guess the majority of profit comes from commercial accounts and the uneducated. Still would be nice to see posters behind the counter and handouts pointing customers to resources that educate and promote sustainability though.

[J & Jr]

I am a fairly new member I read the fourm here a lot and don't post much. I agree with what someone said above this site was very hard for me to find. I am not good with a computer and had no idea how to find local people with the same intrests I was finaly referred to this site by a LFS and through this sites sponsors section found the LFS's that I now go to. I hope this club survives I read the fourms every morning with my coffee.

That said I know I have only made it to the BBQ and this last sunday's meet I would like very much for the club to have hands on demonstrations like scaping the rock in a tank to make the most of your space with differant types of corals and fish, how to cure some of the problems we all seem to have oldies and nubey's alike. mabey even some of the older hands in this hobby giving a talk on all the different things they have tryed and the road the took to get the great tank they now have.

I hope to get to see members tank's at the meetings that sounded great to me and hope soon to have a tank worth sharing.

[SeanF]

Well I have pointed many people in the direction of the club and have the flyers up in my store and I personally like educated customers. Educated customers tend to be long term customers. People that know what they are doing generally keep their tanks long term and therefore are long term customers. I mean I know that there are going to be trades that go on and obviously a lot of equipment will be purchased on the internet but in my opinion that is going to happen and there is nothing that we as stores can do about it. We have to make our money where we can and not worry about not making money where there is no margin. I know there are several individuals up in Portland that are selling on the internet which obviously hurts the stores up there but usually those people will eventually go by the wayside. It is just like any thing else if you are in business there will always be someone out there who thinks they can do it better. I mean that is how you ended up as the owner of Waves isn't it Joel. I personally think the club is a great thing and I know there has been some issues in the recent future with the people in charge stepping aside or what ever was really going on but we as a club need to get beyond that and remember what we came here for in the first place which was to share the hobby that we enjoy with others that are just as crazy as us. I have to say that at certain times I wonder why I started my business there is a lot of BS that goes on behind the scenes that people don't know about unless they are the ones that have to deal with it. In those times I try to sit back and think about all the great parts that I enjoy about the hobby and forget about the business end of things.

[reefgeek84]

Also note that I would not be keeping SPS corals if it was not for this site as well' date=' and that in itself is a bonus to a store for a sale. Sorry to get off track, and I am not trying to make this the LFS problem I just think they as a group could help out more. They have most of the newbie traffic coming in and I would have respected any store that referred me, yes people shop around but they would do that anyways. I don't come to this site to get a DEAL, or cut out a store, I come here for information, to meet people in the hobby, and to share experiences and maybe help in education now and then because I feel I need to give back to a place that has helped me so much.[/quote']

 

I am not on this site for getting a deal either. Sure I get my 10% discount, but that does not matter. I simply became a member, to prove a point and as long as I am a member I will use the discount that I get. I am here to chat with others that are local to me and share the same interests. As well as what Nyles, said, I would have not known about Waves if it was not for this site.

[JManrow]

Well I have pointed many people in the direction of the club and have the flyers up in my store and I personally like educated customers. Educated customers tend to be long term customers. People that know what they are doing generally keep their tanks long term and therefore are long term customers. I mean I know that there are going to be trades that go on and obviously a lot of equipment will be purchased on the internet but in my opinion that is going to happen and there is nothing that we as stores can do about it. We have to make our money where we can and not worry about not making money where there is no margin. I know there are several individuals up in Portland that are selling on the internet which obviously hurts the stores up there but usually those people will eventually go by the wayside. It is just like any thing else if you are in business there will always be someone out there who thinks they can do it better. I mean that is how you ended up as the owner of Waves isn't it Joel. I personally think the club is a great thing and I know there has been some issues in the recent future with the people in charge stepping aside or what ever was really going on but we as a club need to get beyond that and remember what we came here for in the first place which was to share the hobby that we enjoy with others that are just as crazy as us. I have to say that at certain times I wonder why I started my business there is a lot of BS that goes on behind the scenes that people don't know about unless they are the ones that have to deal with it. In those times I try to sit back and think about all the great parts that I enjoy about the hobby and forget about the business end of things.

You got that right. The industry and hobby are two different things. There is an overlapping gray area of business, teaching, learning, marine sciences, technology, hype, art, and jumping aboard the current bandwagon. It can become difficult for the hobbyist to keep his excitement over the years, especially when he gets into the business. This is where an aquarium society comes in. If it wasn't for groups like PNWMAS, some of us would eventually lose interest.

[impur]

I joined the club for a few reasons.

 

First it was tough trying to build a successful tank without someone with knowledge to talk to. So meeting ppl in the same hobby would be my first reason. The meetings, seminars, and DIY projects are so helpful and I enjoy being a part of those. When something is off in my tank i have a bunch of ppl i can call or come here and get all the help i need. That alone made it worth the fee.

 

Second is because i enjoy returning the info to newer hobbiests. I want to see ppl succeed and not become frusterated. This also leads to meeting new ppl.

 

 

If it were not for this club i probably would have never even set foot inside Waves, or Advanced, or Upscales. Sean has been my sole source locally. But reading ppls opinions and seeing stuff they have just taken home from these stores really peaks an interest in that store to me. Waves and Advanced have several hundreds of dollars of business from me over the last couple years, and this site is the solely responsible for them getting that business. Same for Cichlids & Salt. The great customer service and outstanding livestock brings me back. In return not only are Waves, Advanced, Cichlids & Salt getting as much business from me as my pocketbook will allow, but I honestly recommend these stores to other people upwards of 5-10 ppl a week! Sure i do trades with ppl and buy used stuff when i find a deal, but without this site and club those stores probably would not have seen a penny from me.

[Lowman]

Steve, your name is not on the evite list, pm me with where you want me to send your future evites and I'll make sure you are added to the list.

 

Personally, I joined the club to meet fellow reefers in the area and share ideas and knowledge with them. I have acheived this goal. The $20 per year fee is a small price to pay for all of the experiences, and fun, I have received from being a member of the club. I go to meetings basically because I enjoy seeing the friends I have made through this venture.

[WAVES]

It is quiet possible I do not know the impact the site has brought me. I for instance have been suprised at times for someone to mention the site after visiting many many times, and I had no idea they were apart of pwnmas.

 

As with any "Advertising" its difficult to gauge its effectiveness, I could be very wrong about my statements, but Im not sure how to find out.

[reefgeek84]

It is quiet possible I do not know the impact the site has brought me. I for instance have been suprised at times for someone to mention the site after visiting many many times, and I had no idea they were apart of pwnmas.

 

As with any "Advertising" its difficult to gauge its effectiveness, I could be very wrong about my statements, but Im not sure how to find out.

 

If you see a new customer who has been coming in lately, you can casually ask them how they found out about your store. This will let you know what you should invest money in and not invest money in.

[nu2reef-n]

The best advertising is "word of mouth". Most companies have no idea how much damage a few disgruntled customers can do.

All the fancy TV, radio, and newspaper ads in the world can't compare to one of your customers telling someone what a great place it is to go to, and how well they were treated.

[Ronjunior]

It is quiet possible I do not know the impact the site has brought me. I for instance have been suprised at times for someone to mention the site after visiting many many times, and I had no idea they were apart of pwnmas.

 

As with any "Advertising" its difficult to gauge its effectiveness, I could be very wrong about my statements, but Im not sure how to find out.

When I first got into this hobby, I saw listings for you on Craigslist, phone book advertising, an incomplete website and didn't ever come into your business until I came here to this site and found out what people were saying about your store. This site is probably one of your cheapest advertising for the business you get whether people mention the site or not. I doubt most joeblows are going to just come out and say how they heard about a store when doing business anywhere.

You're definitely not getting much drive by business with your location, that's for sure. Do what other businesses do to gauge advertising effectiveness: ask everyone who comes to your store! You're paying for advertising, it's important for you to figure it out so you know where to put your hard earned money to get more exposure.

The bigger and more popular this site gets, the more exposure for a store. It takes time to grow.

[Piero]

Well I have pointed many people in the direction of the club and have the flyers up in my store and I personally like educated customers.

 

(clap) that's good to hear Sean. I really didn't know anyone had flyers up front pointing customers to the web. Thanks for encouraging consumers to educate themselves. Granted you can lead them to it, but can't force 'em to do their homework.

[Michael7979]

I know several of the LFS' have the 11" x 8" club flyer on their refrigerators/counters.

 

Maybe something larger that can be placed somewhere else is also needed, as long as the owners are OK with that.