obrien.david.j Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 Tank has been doing well. Chemistry is stable, (yes NO3 and PO4 are high, but have been for 6months), and then this colony RTN'd. Chopped it out last night. Yes, I've been blowing off cyano too. Anyone tried Witchhazel treatment? RTN/STN Resolution via the Witchhazel Tank Treatment https://www.reefmoonshiners.com/witchhazel-reeftank-treatment Saturday, Feb 11th - 9:45am Sunday, Feb 12th - 10:45am Sunday, 6:30pm - Removal 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexinverts Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 Witch hazel is not very effective in my experience. I would use Oxolinic Acid. I can send you dosing details when you source some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obrien.david.j Posted February 13, 2023 Author Share Posted February 13, 2023 15 minutes ago, Lexinverts said: Witch hazel is not very effective in my experience. I would use Oxolinic Acid. I can send you dosing details when you source some. Thanks for the feedback. My quick research: google: Oxolinic Acid, and it wanted to correct to oxolic acid. Looks like they are NOT the same thing. Found a wiki article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxolinic_acid PNWMAS.org - no hits Reef2Reef - no hits The other articles with hits for Oxolinic Acid were all about treating fish Tell us more. Got any links, treatment plan, experiences from others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerbash Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 Im dealing with RTN right now too 😞 already lost one small colony, fragged another one that also RTN. The interesting thing was that they were right next to each other. Tried antibiotics iodine everything nothing seemed to work. Interested to see how Oxolinic works out for you., Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveweast Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 It is my understanding that Oxolinic acid is a more targeted antibiotic that targets gram negative bacterial issues (like STN and RTN can be) along with brown jelly issues on LPS. It is similar to cipro (which targets everything)…but less harsh. It has been around a long time but is mostly used on koi fish. The in display tank dosage that I was instructed to use was 1/2 gram per 10 gallons…..three treatments every other day…..then the typical water change and carbon. Oxolinic can easily be sourced online. It goes for about $1 per gram. There isn’t much information out there on reef use. It’s just now being looked at as a less harsh alternative than cipro. I was having an issue with some base up STN and some brown jelly on a torch…..and this treatment stopped it cold. I learned of it from my conversations with Jake Adams before his fateful Bali trip. He was using it in his studio on similar issues. I believe that he was turned onto it by Chris Meckley. Your mileage may vary…..this is more of a cutting edge treatment. I’m sure that good bacteria could be affected as well….which could open the door to other issues like Dino’s. Much is unknown right now. I rolled the dice and it did work for me on both the SPS and torch though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveweast Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 I purchased the Oxolinic acid online from Cascade Pond Supply. A simple google search will get you there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuttleFishandCoral Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 Sorry to see this. Happens to the best of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexinverts Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 On 2/13/2023 at 9:15 PM, steveweast said: It is my understanding that Oxolinic acid is a more targeted antibiotic that targets gram negative bacterial issues (like STN and RTN can be) along with brown jelly issues on LPS. It is similar to cipro (which targets everything)…but less harsh. It has been around a long time but is mostly used on koi fish. The in display tank dosage that I was instructed to use was 1/2 gram per 10 gallons…..three treatments every other day…..then the typical water change and carbon. Oxolinic can easily be sourced online. It goes for about $1 per gram. There isn’t much information out there on reef use. It’s just now being looked at as a less harsh alternative than cipro. I was having an issue with some base up STN and some brown jelly on a torch…..and this treatment stopped it cold. I learned of it from my conversations with Jake Adams before his fateful Bali trip. He was using it in his studio on similar issues. I believe that he was turned onto it by Chris Meckley. Your mileage may vary…..this is more of a cutting edge treatment. I’m sure that good bacteria could be affected as well….which could open the door to other issues like Dino’s. Much is unknown right now. I rolled the dice and it did work for me on both the SPS and torch though. We have data from Aquabiomics that shows it does not harm the good bacteria at the doses that Chris, Jake, and you used. It works very similarly to low doses of Cipro, and targets bad bacteria like Arcobacter and those that cause SCTLD. You can see in the microbial community graph below that before treatment my tank community was dominated by the bad bacteria (large orange bar) and after treatment it looked much more like a typical reef tank microbial community (even representation of many different bacterial groups). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC7 Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 whats your salinity at and how are you measuring? hope its not through apex.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuncrestReef Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 When's the last time you ran an ICP test? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obrien.david.j Posted February 14, 2023 Author Share Posted February 14, 2023 16 hours ago, steveweast said: It is my understanding that Oxolinic acid is a more targeted antibiotic that targets gram negative bacterial issues (like STN and RTN can be) along with brown jelly issues on LPS. It is similar to cipro (which targets everything)…but less harsh. It has been around a long time but is mostly used on koi fish. The in display tank dosage that I was instructed to use was 1/2 gram per 10 gallons…..three treatments every other day…..then the typical water change and carbon. Oxolinic can easily be sourced online. It goes for about $1 per gram. There isn’t much information out there on reef use. It’s just now being looked at as a less harsh alternative than cipro. I was having an issue with some base up STN and some brown jelly on a torch…..and this treatment stopped it cold. I learned of it from my conversations with Jake Adams before his fateful Bali trip. He was using it in his studio on similar issues. I believe that he was turned onto it by Chris Meckley. Your mileage may vary…..this is more of a cutting edge treatment. I’m sure that good bacteria could be affected as well….which could open the door to other issues like Dino’s. Much is unknown right now. I rolled the dice and it did work for me on both the SPS and torch though. Thanks for the info. Oxolinic Acid ordered. (different supply house) No shipping eta yet. Lexinverts pointed me to "Rappin' With ReefBum: Guest Chris Meckley, ACI Aquaculture" https://www.youtube.com/live/sQw_ygsHAn0?feature=share Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obrien.david.j Posted February 14, 2023 Author Share Posted February 14, 2023 6 hours ago, CuttleFishandCoral said: Sorry to see this. Happens to the best of us. Thanks 2 hours ago, JC7 said: whats your salinity at and how are you measuring? hope its not through apex.. Salinity is a touch high, at ~37. Measured with Hydromometer, and confirmed with ICP test taken last week. 1 hour ago, SuncrestReef said: When's the last time you ran an ICP test? Taken last Tuesday, returned today. Maybe too high Floride, but I've been running there a few months. (Moonshiners continues to say lower it) Here's the four month history: Here's Here's the Moonshiners recommendation based on latest test. (2/6/2023 column) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC7 Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 Personally I don't trust hydrometers at all or icp. Have you tried a new refractometer with 35ppt calibration fluid, not ro/di? I've had issues of rtn in the past when my salinity creeped up (dosing lots of kalk + 2 part) or when the temp rose (bad temp probe and junk heater) Also what is your temp and how is it measured? I don't think its your nutrients or traces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obrien.david.j Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 5 hours ago, JC7 said: Personally I don't trust hydrometers at all or icp. Have you tried a new refractometer with 35ppt calibration fluid, not ro/di? I've had issues of rtn in the past when my salinity creeped up (dosing lots of kalk + 2 part) or when the temp rose (bad temp probe and junk heater) Also what is your temp and how is it measured? I don't think its your nutrients or traces. I mispoke. I use a refractometer, calibrated with 35ppt fluid. Checked within the last two weeks. Temp control is Apex based, using two different temp probes (which generally show an offset between them, but <1degree). Temp in the range of 77-78 degrees. (And of course, with secondary inkbird temp controller set 2 degree higher on each heater, as over heat safety.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obrien.david.j Posted February 20, 2023 Author Share Posted February 20, 2023 On 2/13/2023 at 9:15 PM, steveweast said: It is my understanding that Oxolinic acid is a more targeted antibiotic that targets gram negative bacterial issues (like STN and RTN can be) along with brown jelly issues on LPS. It is similar to cipro (which targets everything)…but less harsh. It has been around a long time but is mostly used on koi fish. The in display tank dosage that I was instructed to use was 1/2 gram per 10 gallons…..three treatments every other day…..then the typical water change and carbon. Oxolinic can easily be sourced online. It goes for about $1 per gram. There isn’t much information out there on reef use. It’s just now being looked at as a less harsh alternative than cipro. I was having an issue with some base up STN and some brown jelly on a torch…..and this treatment stopped it cold. I learned of it from my conversations with Jake Adams before his fateful Bali trip. He was using it in his studio on similar issues. I believe that he was turned onto it by Chris Meckley. Your mileage may vary…..this is more of a cutting edge treatment. I’m sure that good bacteria could be affected as well….which could open the door to other issues like Dino’s. Much is unknown right now. I rolled the dice and it did work for me on both the SPS and torch though. @steveweastand @Lexinverts - Thanks for your inputs on Oxolinc Acid. Saturday (2/18) - my order arrived Sunday (2/19) - 1st dosage applied Tanks+sumps ~= 400 gallons 20 grams of Oxolinic Acid mixed with 1 red solo cup of RO water Stuff has the consistency of clay powder. took a while to fully mix Took UV offline, turned skimmer down so it wasn't skimming, removed Carbon. (not running any GFO/other binders).Left Bio Pellet reactor On Normal Light cycle, flow cycles, feeding cycle in evening. Skipped daily dose of Phyto, daily dose of Carbon Dosing, daily dose of trace elements Slowly poured O.Acid mixture at 7:30am into tank, turned chalky/murky for an hour. (Even poured a small amount into each connected frag tank directly) Watched the tank all day. No problems, everything looks fine Monday (2/20) - Rest day Tank looks fine ( at 8am) Turned skimmer back on this morning, fed normal dose of phyto So far so good Additional observation. ORP is a tough measurement to make sense of. But I use it to just indicate an "event" of any kind has happened to the tank. (I always ignore the actual value, and watch movement.) Yesterday the ORP started dropped right away, and took until about 5pm before starting to recover. Will be interesting to see if it's back at baseline by end of today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obrien.david.j Posted February 21, 2023 Author Share Posted February 21, 2023 Monday (2/20) - Rest day (updated_ Tank looks fine ( at 8am) Turned skimmer back on this morning, fed normal dose of phyto Also dosed normal drops of daily trace elements, and carbon dosing Tuesday (2/21) - 2nd dosage applied 20 grams of Oxolinic Acid mixed with 1 red solo cup of RO water UV offline, turned skimmer down, still no Carbon Slowly poured O.Acid mixture at 6:00am into tank ORP Observations Update ORP recovered to baseline level at end of Rest Day, and dropped immediately again, after 2nd dose. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obrien.david.j Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 Wednesday (2/22) - Rest day Tank looks fine, skimmer back on, feeding as normal A green/mint birdsnest coral looks rougher than normal Thursday (2/23) - 3nd dosage applied (Last Dose) 20 grams of Oxolinic Acid mixed with 1 red solo cup of RO water UV offline, turned skimmer down, still no Carbon Slowly poured O.Acid mixture at 7:00am into tank ORP Observations Update ORP recovered to baseline level at end of Rest Day, and dropped immediately again, after 2nd dose. ORP recovered to baseline level at end of Rest Day, and dropped immediately again, after 3nd dose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obrien.david.j Posted February 24, 2023 Author Share Posted February 24, 2023 Treatment is done. Here's a complete summary of what I did, and the final ORP trends. Again, I don't view ORP as anything magical, just an indication something happened in the tank, and its recovery. Saturday (2/18) - my order arrived Sunday (2/19) - 1st dosage applied Tanks+sumps ~= 400 gallons 20 grams of Oxolinic Acid mixed with 1 red solo cup of RO water Stuff has the consistency of clay powder. took a while to fully mix Took UV offline, turned skimmer down so it wasn't skimming, removed Carbon. (not running any GFO/other binders).Left Bio Pellet reactor On Normal Light cycle, flow cycles, feeding cycle in evening. Skipped daily dose of Phyto, daily dose of Carbon Dosing, daily dose of trace elements Slowly poured O.Acid mixture at 7:30am into tank, turned chalky/murky for an hour. (Even poured a small amount into each connected frag tank directly) Watched the tank all day. No problems, everything looks fine Monday (2/20) - Rest day Tank looks fine ( at 8am) Turned skimmer back on this morning, fed normal dose of phyto Also dosed normal drops of daily trace elements, and carbon dosing Tuesday (2/21) - 2nd dosage applied 20 grams of Oxolinic Acid mixed with 1 red solo cup of RO water UV offline, turned skimmer down, still no Carbon Slowly poured O.Acid mixture at 6:00am into tank Wednesday (2/22) - Rest day Tank looks fine, skimmer back on, feeding as normal A green/mint birdsnest coral looks rougher than normal Thursday (2/23) - 3nd dosage applied (Last Dose) 20 grams of Oxolinic Acid mixed with 1 red solo cup of RO water UV offline, turned skimmer down, still no Carbon Slowly poured O.Acid mixture at 7:00am into tank Friday (2/24) - Treatment done Tank looks fine. Birdsnest still looks rough. Will have to watch it. Skimmer turned back on 6:30am Fresh Activated Carbon applied at noon Next steps planned, a couple of big water changes. ORP Observations Update ORP recovered to baseline level at end of Rest Day, and dropped immediately again, after 2nd dose. ORP recovered to baseline level at end of Rest Day, and dropped immediately again, after 3nd dose. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obrien.david.j Posted February 27, 2023 Author Share Posted February 27, 2023 On 2/24/2023 at 3:26 PM, obrien.david.j said: Next steps planned, a couple of big water changes. Friday (2/24) - 5:30pm, changed 70gallons Sunday (2/26) - 4:30pm, changed 70 gallons Observations so far, no ill effects. Hard to say the treatment "stopped RTN." A couple of corals have had STN, but the "S" stands for Slow. So will take some time for the next judgement/observation. Overall, I'm very happy I did this. Very easy, did not show any signs of stress. Even during treatment days. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krux Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 Thanks for the detailed write up! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yourmedic Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 How are things looking after about a month and a half of time? Have you seen anything that shows progress or continued decline? I'm doing some looking into ORP and your topic came up first in the search box. Really good read and curious on the follow up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obrien.david.j Posted April 17, 2023 Author Share Posted April 17, 2023 No signs of RTN nor STN. Stabilized and recovered on that front. On a different side, Cyano is back. Mostly on the gravel and rocks, not on the corals themselves. Currently using the Blow-it-off-with-a-power-head technique. Although I came back pretty fast this weekend, so tonight will be a Syphon-a-layer-out technique. ICP test last month say water chemistry is doing well. Sent another one off Saturday. (~1 month apart) pH, Ca (460), Alk(9), Mag(1450), NO3 (27), PO4 (0.3) all in same stable range they've been for a while. (although, was as high as 100 on NO3 this summer. it's coming down) No change in flow, lighting, etc So just going back to basic maint and see where this goes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefmafia Posted October 6, 2023 Share Posted October 6, 2023 Does anyone know how this treatment may affect anemones? Ordered some the other day trying to figure out if I should remove my Giganteas before treatment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obrien.david.j Posted October 7, 2023 Author Share Posted October 7, 2023 treatment didn't bother my small aptasia population at all. @Lexinverts - any idea on anemones? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexinverts Posted October 8, 2023 Share Posted October 8, 2023 On 10/6/2023 at 4:14 PM, Reefmafia said: Does anyone know how this treatment may affect anemones? Ordered some the other day trying to figure out if I should remove my Giganteas before treatment I would be surprised if it hurt your anemones. People routinely use Cipro on anemones and this stuff is similar to Cipro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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