kriz2fer Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2088048&page=4 Are you sure? here are some par reading from 3 different led units. This is 9 inches under the lamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasasah Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 No one is talking bad about mh. They work yes. But generate more heat, consume more power, and are more expensive to replace. Im not willing to pay 80 dollars for a bulb when I can get a whole led panel for 250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bicyclebill Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Before any misinformation gets spread, leds are not know to have more par than mh. There is hundreds of par reading from both. Have you seen the par from my 250 watt radium? I have 500 par on the sand bed, tell me how many of you led guys have par higher then that. Don't forget Danik too he's running radiums and has one of the nicest tanks I have ever seen in person. Also all the show tanks at upscales running radiums. Just about all the Lfs with nice show tanks are running radiums. I've asked Travis about his 300G cube show tank lighting, and he tells me it's Hamilton 14K. Hamilton 14K doesn't fair very well in Sanjay's PAR tests, but certainly leaves me wondering because Travis' show tank is spectacular. As far as 500 Par at the sand bed, that's not at all what I've seen in any tests or info I've read. What I have seen is that LED is higher at lower levels. All that means is that I'm having trouble keeping corals like favias and other medium light corals in my tank because I'm burning them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richmckee Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I don't know how it translates to corals, but plants do not grow as well under strictly LED's even if their PAR ratings are off the charts. This is due to the fact that there are secondary pigments that can process other wavelengths of light besides the peak wavelengths that chlorophyl A and B utilize. So....plants are usually missing the "in between" wavelengths when LED units are made with diodes at only peak wavelengths. LED's make great supplementation lighting for the chlorophyl A and B photosynthesis processes, but don't hit the broad swath of secondary mechanisms which can maximize biosynthesis within the organism. I think in the future there will be LED units that will have various ratios of wavelengths that somewhat duplicate natural light and utilize the secondary photosynthesis mechanisms. IMHO the best way to do it currently is to have both LED's and MH; that way the main wavelengths get supplied efficiently with the LED's and the halide supplies the secondary spectrums that are necessary for maximum potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReefStar Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Before any misinformation gets spread' date=' leds are not know to have more par than mh. There is hundreds of par reading from both. Have you seen the par from my 250 watt radium? I have 500 par on the sand bed, tell me how many of you led guys have par higher then that.[/quote'] Just curious, what is the height of your tank? What is the PAR at half of the tank and upper 25% of your tank? Par is just part of the solution. By using different optic degree you can get really high PAR from LEDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefnjunkie Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I don't know how it translates to corals' date=' [b']but plants do not grow as well under strictly LED's [/b]even if their PAR ratings are off the charts. This is due to the fact that there are secondary pigments that can process other wavelengths of light besides the peak wavelengths that chlorophyl A and B utilize. So....plants are usually missing the "in between" wavelengths when LED units are made with diodes at only peak wavelengths. LED's make great supplementation lighting for the chlorophyl A and B photosynthesis processes, but don't hit the broad swath of secondary mechanisms which can maximize biosynthesis within the organism. I think in the future there will be LED units that will have various ratios of wavelengths that somewhat duplicate natural light and utilize the secondary photosynthesis mechanisms. IMHO the best way to do it currently is to have both LED's and MH; that way the main wavelengths get supplied efficiently with the LED's and the halide supplies the secondary spectrums that are necessary for maximum potential. By plants do you mean corals? Unrelated to the above question........The banter between whats better is amusing, as they both do great providing they are of quality. I have not done any more reading on LEDs since I read until my head hurt nearly a year ago. I was 1st considering making the switch since my next tank (which is now my present tank) was going to be 400 gallons and my choice was driven purely by cost savings. Having said that the LEDs I have are Royal Blue and Cool White, the RB are in a 440-450 nm range, (I think), and the cool whites are 6500K-I have not idea what the hell that translates to rofl but if on paper or someones scientific study says my corals should not respond well because the lLEDs are lacking some "insert reason here" then please dont tell my corals that becuase they are certainly ignorant and grow as well as they did before when I ran MH. Maybe they grow better, maybe not, I have not gave it any thought becuase the fact is they grow, but truth being told, in my honest opinion they are growing faster than they used. To say its becuase of the LEDs may be a stretch, but in that same sentance I will say that the only change has been the lights, everything else is the same, other than the tank now being 400 gallons versus 75/150 which has other new varibles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefsickness Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I just read every post on this subj and Im Tired now(nutty) Im Running 2,400w 20k MH Raduims on my main Tank That's 30 deep and my sps are doing fine and Im running 1 175 watt MH xm 14 K on my nano and my sps are doing fine in that tank. My sump heater comes on in the evening when the lights are off and my 2 6in fans keep the tanks at 79.3 deg during the day yes they put out alot of heat but the plus to this is I have not had to turn the heater on in my Apt at all this year (laugh) the tanks keep the entire apt at a nice 78 deg. So if I ran led's the light would be the same par reading but I would have to turn the heaters on in the apt and and the cost saving on running the led's would be lost. Just a diffent way of looking at it.(scary) I just thank the cost factor of setting up leds for some one just getting into the hobby is way to high compared to setting up a MH system. Most reef systems life span is short the people I see setting up leds are fokes that have been in the hobby 3-5 + years and how many are still running the same system they started with. and most started useing MH or T5's The problem I see with leds are you earther buy a system or make a lite for a lets say a 75 gal system you spend $800 in the next year you get the earge to set up a 180 gal system that led lite is worthless unless you buy another $800 lite to cover your new system. now your into your lites for $1600 in one year or you switch every thing over to MH and sale your LED on the fourm to cover the MH your getting. and your turning on your heaters to keep your house warm lol MH system you buy a used 250w ballest and a new 20k bulb cost $175-250 we will use the highend of 250 in a year you set up that new system you use your old ballest go buy another used ballest and a new bulb $250 and replace you old bulb $70 so im $570 for lights over 2 years and the tank keeps your living room warmDOH! I may try LED system in a year or two when the price comes down and see whats new in two years or they got the leds system fool proof i would hate to lose a $1000 worth of corals by trying a $1600 led system since I have yet to see or hear of any one that can tell me .OK This is what lite combo you need for a led system to grow your corals with a promise that my sps's wont brown out or die. I know MH I have that promise they work they been tested .; Just my 2 cents Im still new at this hobby I had a system 14 years ago and it has changed so much that I have to say im a newbe now what will change in 14 more years. Reefsickness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 250? Where in the world can you get a leds fixture for 250 that's proven? If your talking those chessy less from china you better guess again. The only few LEDs that are 100% proven to grow sps are at least 400 bucks a pop and you needier then one so your looking at around 800 bucks and assuming your tank in around 48 inches. Thats the worst thing about leds in the upfront cost to try in save in the long run. Most people who have a super nice tank with LEDs end up spending over a 1000 bucks on the cheap side. If you DIY from rapid LEDs then your at about 600-700 bucks and that's another proven way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Does anyone else use candle light? I have to light mine in the am and blow them out at night...Great par, But I dont understand my heat issues! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattv Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I have @$370 in to my dimmable led system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquaman30k Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Does anyone else use candle light? I have to light mine in the am and blow them out at night...Great par' date=' But I dont understand my heat issues![/quote'] Bahahahahaha!!!!! Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richmckee Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 By plants do you mean corals? Nope, talking terrestrial plants. Corals evolved in water, so I'm sure there's a big difference. Does anyone else use candle light? I have to light mine in the am and blow them out at night...Great par' date=' But I dont understand my heat issues![/quote'] bahahahahaha I think you're onto something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I don't know how it translates to corals, but plants do not grow as well under strictly LED's even if their PAR ratings are off the charts. This is due to the fact that there are secondary pigments that can process other wavelengths of light besides the peak wavelengths that chlorophyl A and B utilize. So....plants are usually missing the "in between" wavelengths when LED units are made with diodes at only peak wavelengths. LED's make great supplementation lighting for the chlorophyl A and B photosynthesis processes, but don't hit the broad swath of secondary mechanisms which can maximize biosynthesis within the organism. I think in the future there will be LED units that will have various ratios of wavelengths that somewhat duplicate natural light and utilize the secondary photosynthesis mechanisms. IMHO the best way to do it currently is to have both LED's and MH; that way the main wavelengths get supplied efficiently with the LED's and the halide supplies the secondary spectrums that are necessary for maximum potential. Here is some info on zooxanthellae photosynthesis: 1. The photosynthetic pigments of the brown symbiotic algae (zooxanthellae) isolated from five tridacnid clams and nine corals were found to be identical with the pigments of the dinoflagellate Amphidinium. Identifications were carried out by two-dimensional paper chromatography and by absorption spectrophotometry. Both zooxanthellae and dinoflagellates contained cholorphylls a and c, beta-carotene, peridinin, neo-peridinin, dinoxanthin, neo-dinoxanthin, diadinoxanthin, and three minor xanthophyll fractions not previously described. http://www.biolbull.org/content/135/1/149.abstract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 Here is the price break out not really that much difference: T-5 Fixture. Tek 319.00 AIT 899.00 6 Bulbs 120.00 Replace bulb 1 year 120.00 AIT 1139.00 TEK 559.00 LED’s Reefstar 400.00 X2 800.00 AI SOL 400.00 X2 800.00 Ecotech 748.00 x 2 1496.00 You can go the DYI and I think it around 275.00 X2 550.00 One thing brought up was wouldn’t do 2 over a 55 so if three then: Reefstar 400.00 X3 1200.00 AI SOL 400.00 X3 1200.00 Ecotech 748.00 x 2 1496.00 So diff is: MH 912.00 T-5 559.00 TO 1139.00 LED 800 TO 1200 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 The ati fixture is cheaper if you get the sunpower, then the cost is around 500-700. Overall yeah frank those number look about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattv Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Now let's see an energy cost to run them all for a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I've asked Travis about his 300G cube show tank lighting, and he tells me it's Hamilton 14K. Hamilton 14K doesn't fair very well in Sanjay's PAR tests, but certainly leaves me wondering because Travis' show tank is spectacular. As far as 500 Par at the sand bed, that's not at all what I've seen in any tests or info I've read. What I have seen is that LED is higher at lower levels. All that means is that I'm having trouble keeping corals like favias and other medium light corals in my tank because I'm burning them up.[/ Well you just saw...lol my mh are so strong that if I run them any longer then 5 hours all my sps bleach out and there 12 inches off the water. The fixture I have is smann old setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefnjunkie Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Here is some info on zooxanthellae photosynthesis: 1. The photosynthetic pigments of the brown symbiotic algae (zooxanthellae) isolated from five tridacnid clams and nine corals were found to be identical with the pigments of the dinoflagellate Amphidinium. Identifications were carried out by two-dimensional paper chromatography and by absorption spectrophotometry. Both zooxanthellae and dinoflagellates contained cholorphylls a and c, beta-carotene, peridinin, neo-peridinin, dinoxanthin, neo-dinoxanthin, diadinoxanthin, and three minor xanthophyll fractions not previously described. http://www.biolbull.org/content/135/1/149.abstract I recognize every single word in that post but have no idea what it says-rofl I would have needed 6 reefstars but built my own for about the same cost and mine are controllable which was the only reason I did-I have put a par meter to Kennys and they put out great numbers. If I had to actually see my fixtures I would have not done the DIY-they are fugly but I dont, so for about the same money I built what I got. My 6 MH fixtures, bulbs and ballasts that I bought at LFS costs (see that I actually bought them and had to sell them laterDOH! what a dumb.as.s(nutty)) ran me 2050.00 and the chiller I bought at cost (wont disclose price) was in addition, not counting the pump to run said chlller- retail on the last two items mentioned would have been close to 1500.00 which puts my intial investment to run my tank with MH around say 3500.00 vs the 2400.00 for LED without bulbs being repalced annually. PLUS I planned on tunning 3-4 140 watt VHO bulbs-(naughty) On 150 my 150 MH where perfect and I would not have switched but when I went BIG (LMAO) it was a no brainer. Regarding T5's just never have been a fan put thats another thread-they are proven but its personal preferance and I like the shimmer. WOO HOO how many pages can this thread go(popcorn) (worthless) here is last months- (kneel) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefnjunkie Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Sorry point was lost.... Big tanks, LEDs make sense Smaller tanks-its personal preferance (backtotopic)(popcorn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Yep I agree people with smaller tanks trying to save big money is really Not gonna make a big impact, I did the math on my tank and I wouldn't really save much and with a lot of people not having success is a big thing for me to take a risk on. Your tanks looks great btw and I have seen good things from those led suppliers. Mark has the same LEDs on his tank and so far looks good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mister crabs Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 i plan on jumping back into the hobby in a few months with a biocube 29g (again). will definately be doing the LED kit i have seen others do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoobtoSalt Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Yep I agree people with smaller tanks trying to save big money is really Not gonna make a big impact' date=' I did the math on my tank and I wouldn't really save much and with a lot of people not having success is a big thing for me to take a risk on. Your tanks looks great btw and I have seen good things from those led suppliers. Mark has the same LEDs on his tank and so far looks good.[/quote'] Again I don't think the big deal was the cost savings in the long run. You commented about how LED's are not as good as MH's. I'm happy with my LED's and if I were to convert the tank to MH's it would have cost me just as much and I get better color and save a small bit of energy in the process. Oh and again I wouldn't have to replace the bulbs yearly. Why wouldn't I want to do it? And Brad your tank looks terrible. You need to toss some of those frags towards my tiny little tank so it feels better....(laugh) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Again I don't think the big deal was the cost savings in the long run. You commented about how LED's are not as good as MH's. I'm happy with my LED's and if I were to convert the tank to MH's it would have cost me just as much and I get better color and save a small bit of energy in the process. Oh and again I wouldn't have to replace the bulbs yearly. Why wouldn't I want to do it? And Brad your tank looks terrible. You need to toss some of those frags towards my tiny little tank so it feels better....(laugh) Where did I ever say that? Are you reading the thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoobtoSalt Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 It's very well known that LEDs grow sps but there not any better then t5 or mh. My bad you just said they aren't any better. I thought you said they were not as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Yeah that's where I stand with them. I may very well switch also, when I start seeing coral farmers and totm running them. They way things stand now is mh is still king and still the most proven way to have nice sps. When your trying to have a very successful sps tank you need to look at what the people with the most success are using. Look at the past couple of years totm and look how many are Running LEDs. That's a very good indication of what works and doesn't. The nicest tanks in the world continue to run metal halides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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