Frank Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Ok to start a new thread. There was a discussion of LED’s and how they compare to MH, T-5. So the last quote was LEDs are not proven to last 10 yers like manufactor states' date=' remember how long they said t5 would last? They don't have better par, I have seen probably 10 different par readings from all types of leds from ai sol to radion to DIY LEDs. Also they don't save much money on electricity when you factor in the fact your heaters will run all the the time now. Like I said before the top notch reefers in the world are still using mh and they have some of the best colors you'll ever see.[/quote'] As far as par goes. I have seen tanks that are running 5 year old LED and still look better than most show tank and are all SPS. One thing I always hear and love it they won’t penetrate 30 deep I can tell you they will as my tank is 30 deep but also why do I need them to no going to grow SPS on my sand. As far as power goes just got my new bill… Was running 2 400mh and a chiller and my new bill is half of what it was (wife loves that). A lot of top notch such and TECO and lots of tanks from around the world we are be hide the curve on this one. Look at the pic posted tell me those are not some great looking SPS. Here is a fact LED’s are making such a impact on the hobby the cost of MH are dropping like a rock. Now if LED’s a not better why is this? Here is another tank http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/swannyson7/spotlight/IMG_9539.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 There really isn't anything to say about leds and mh that hasn't already been disscused on reef central. You posted a pic of ONE tank that was running leds and ill show you a million running MH. You can say for sure they have grown all those sps from frags under those same leds? IMO the ati fixure is hands down one of the best way to light an sps tank, I have never seem so many successful tanks running these fixtures and you never see posts about how they browned out there sps like you do with leds. here is a link....read a on http://web1.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2110864 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattv Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I originally started my post because I too have used many types of lighting over the years and I am seeing a growth rate I have never seen before. One of the best options was being able to dim my lighting system. I have a few friends here on the board that have tried Leds and ended up going back to their mh's. I have had less algae growth and denser/tighter growth in my sps with the Leds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 True the discussion started about LED’s and SPS. I have very good growth and color from LED for me and others I know. T-5 is like all lighting if you don’t have the right bulbs and combo then you will get brown out same as MH and LED. I know I have better control of my heat now and I use lower power. As Matt said I have less unwanted algae growth. But to say LED’S are not as good as a T-5 or a MH is not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 The factor that is selling me about LEDs is the spectrum stability. MH shift from blue to red over time. I have always hated it. Even when buying bulbs from the same manufacturer there is variation. Once you get LEDs dialed into your setup, they stay where you want them. Power consumption is a bad comparison. But efficiency is another. The loss of hot bulbs is nice. I have been running all three lighting types on my 180 for the last year. I have a 175 halide. A 120 led and a 24" 4 bulb t5 fixture. Metal halide kept up for awhile but now that side grows more algae. T5 are weak (24 inchers are weak), and LEDs are rocking. Plenty of depth. Constant spectrum, and less heat. Also more effects such as dimming and such. Down side is expense and the downside something newer is always coming out, it is hard to commit MH are tried and true and with quality ballasts and bulbs do serve their place (especially commercial) but leds are working their way in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote=MVPaquatics;300339 Down side is expense and the downside something newer is always coming out, it is hard to commit MH are tried and true and with quality ballasts and bulbs do serve their place (especially commercial) but leds are working their way in So true on this.... It suck somthing always new comming out ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramy Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I agree about cost leds are more of a up front investment but when you figure in bulb replacement they will make up the diffrence in cost over a 5 year period. Like most things though if you skimp and buy bargain basment merchandise dont be surpised when you get bargin basement results for example compair a pheonix or a radium mh to the el cheapo one you bought off the internet to save some money. So when making comparisons you have to try and keep the quality of the product in mind as well as type. In the end though we will all use what is most comforting to us wether it be latest and greatest cheapest tried and true. I dont think any one is nessecarily wrong here just looking at it from a biased prospective =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trautman Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 To altogether reject LEDs is ridiculous. That being said, I think that there are some very important aspects to how LEDs or any reef lighting is evaluated. When I think of how a light should be for an aquarium, I think of how nature has it. Because ultimately coral has evolved to specific climates and habitats... and while flow, temperature and even pH may change in regions, sunlight it always the same (not always the same temperature or power, but ultimately the same source). So in my opinion, I think that reef lighting should mimic sunlight where needed (and no, obviously I don't run 6500k lights). Because a Spectrum that is different from sunlight is going to be something that coral isn't adapted to. Keep in mind I said spectrum not temperature (like 6500k vs. 14000k) LED lighting isn't all one or the other. There are some LED horror stories that result from lights which (in my opinion) are far enough away from sunlight that they kill or brown coral. However, there are also more complete LEDs that work, and while they may not be entirely proven, I think they are successful enough to call a positive outcome. Some points I would like to make: 1. Energy: LEDs are still power consuming keep in mind! I was surprised when I found out that the school's LED unit was consuming as much as it was in power... frankly that isn't much better than the 250w I would alternatively run. That being said, on big builds where you have a TON of lighting... you will save tremendously (see Frank) 2. Heat: this is really a subcategory of energy. LED's make heat!!! seriously, they do! The difference is that LEDs allow for heat sinks (when you buy a quality unit) and fans, which makes less heat transfer into the water... so TA-DA you don't need to run a chiller (and that saves you big time). And just saying, it is really a poor argument that having to use a heater would be a reason to stick with Halides... not to point anyone out:p 3. And lets not forget: for those of you who went to the meeting in by J Adams about LED lighting this summer... he did actually say that certain circumstances were actually best for halides... it isn't all one or the other, but rather, it is something worth combining! And Frank... is it true you are combining T-5 and LEDs??? So how can you solely attribute LED's to your great (and really, it does look excellent) looking tank? Couldn't it be a result of the combination? or just the T-5's as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Algae can grow over time with old bulbs. If you have to pay over a 1000 bucks on LEDs and then wait 5 yrs for them to pay its not worth it to me. If you think about in 5yrs most people won't even be in this hobby who bought the leds in the first place. To think about what will will be using in 5 yrs from now is unknown maybe plasma or maybe some leds that make the one out now obsolete. When they said 5 yrs ago t5 will take over and mh will be worthless, look where that went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 I do run T-5 and LED’s most of my T-5 have gone to blues and purple+ I did this to I was not sold on LED’s. My growth maybe from both but I have seen other tanks that don’t run T-5 and have great growth. Here is the pay out. Let’s do a 250 MH and a 6 bulb t-5 for a 55 gallon. Ballast 135.00 Reflector 99.00 Bulb 74.00 (need to replace 8 months.) Cost 308.00 after 2.5 years. 456.00 x2 for 912.00 T-5 Fixture. Tek 319.00 AIT 899.00 6 Bulbs 120.00 Replace bulb 1 year 120.00 AIT 1139.00 TEK 559.00 LED’s Reefstar 400.00 X2 800.00 AI SOL 400.00 X2 800.00 Ecotech 748.00 x 2 1496.00 You can go the DYI and I think it around 275.00 X2 550.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I dont replace mh bulbs at 8 months, my radiums will run 12 months min and people run them longer. Like I said before who wants to wait 5 years to see money back when most of these same people won't even have a tank by then. Look at the average life span of a reef aquarium. Are you ever really gonna see that money back? Frank tell me in 10 years your gonna be running the same led fixture you have now? If not what the point on having the so called 10 yrs led life span. Also I doubt 2 ai sol would cover a 48 inch tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Two Sol may not cover and 55 but I wouldnt do 2 250 I would do 2 400 but that me. For me it not about the life span the LED's were a must the cost of 4 400 and chiller then the price to run it all was to much. I was able to do the 4 LED's with no chiller for cheaper but that is my set up. On a side note I dont like the look of the Mh after about 8 months. You could do three Sol and be close to price on the ATI. I was wrong on my math for MH. 250 MH Ballast 135.00 Reflector 99.00 Bulb 74.00 (need to replace 8 months.) Cost 616.00 After 2.5 years 912.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I dont replace mh bulbs at 8 months, my radiums will run 12 months min. Are you ever really gonna see that money back? Frank tell me in 10 years your gonna be running the same led fixture you have now? If not what the point on having the so called 10 yrs led life span. Also I doubt 2 ai sol would cover a 48 inch tank. 12 months is too long, it is about spectrum shift, good, then ok, then not good. People wait to see things go downhill and then replace, which means you are missing a lot of permium growth spectrum. No chiller = instant savings. No ugly ballasts to mount and hide. I highly doubt he will use the fixture for 10 years. But he probably could. And as long as it fires up, it will make the same light it did a decade earlier. Halides dont last a decade either. They went from magnetic to electronic, so those peopld are now bummed wih magnetics. T5 can never compare. And sure, LEDs migt become obsolete ina decade, but halides probably wont even exist anymore lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramy Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I will be using a combination of leds and t5s on my new tank. It will have 4x24w t5 and 4x6w led strips so I will be getting the best of both worlds that being said the replacement cost of the t5s at $100 dollars in 4 years time I could buy a really nice ai sol to put over the tank. My plann is to save money over the next year so this time next year I will buy a new led light rather then shell out another $100 to replace my t5 bulbs. An the one advantage that t5s really had was the ability to customize the color spectrum with diffrent bulbs which I really love but a lot of the nicer led models are highly customizable in that department using computer software to to control the programs. MH are great lights but the heat and power involved with them is intense when I am at the fish store they have tanks that are powered by leds and they have tanks with MH and when you go by th MH tanks the heat thats coming off of the lights is crazzy warm. Being a nano guy heat is a major factor for me the diffrence in power consumtion is not that great at the level of lights I am using. I could probably save more on my electric bill by getting my daughter to turn off the lights when she leaves a room =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Where taking radiums here not some xm bulbs. Yeah maybe some chap mh bulbs will need to be replaced evey 6 months but not radium ran with the proper ballast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefnjunkie Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I know the main reason I switched to LED (and this is after purchasing all the equipment-anyone need a never been used 1HP chiller?) was the FREAKIN watts I was going to be sucking up, running my new set up. I figured roughly 1500 in MH, 420 VHO, 1200 with the chiller, 350 with the pump to run the chiller, and thats not counting 400.00 a year in just MH bulbs, and thats just the display tank, I got a 4'x2' frag tank-(nutty) My math maybe off (scratch) but I figured 3years its a break even, after that they (in therory) pay me money back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandinga Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Long ago a top notch coral farmer told me his favorite bulb was the radiums at 18months of age. Some led's are worthy of much praise. Some mh are worthy of the same. Im waiting for the nice LEDs to come down in price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattv Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Long ago a top notch coral farmer told me his favorite bulb was the radiums at 18months of age. Some led's are worthy of much praise. Some mh are worthy of the same. Im waiting for the nice LEDs to come down in price. That's another reason I went diy with my Leds! They are expandable and the pieces can be purchased over time. I was able to customize my color and intensity with my spacing. I have around the same cost in my system that I would have paid for a good Mh setup. On my last cube that was 27"x27"x24" I ran 1-250 watt Mh, 175 watt Mh and 2-24" t5's. My new 34"x34"x24" is being covered by 42 3watt crees and is brighter and crisper with the Leds using 126 watts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefboy Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Not sure ware to start here but what it comes down to is finding the right light for what you believe is the right price and works which I have they have already cut my electric bill down 100.00 a month and cant wait to add more as far as the heat issue most folks have more of a issue keeping there tanks cool and I think getting rid of the halide's to cut down on a chiller running or being able to run your house a little warmer in the summer will save you arse loads in money.As far as color and growth most things have improved or stayed the same not loss in color and growth has been great if not better so with what i have seen with my own eyes and trying pretty much every lighting system out there im sold and they will only get better and cheaper:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhand Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I think really the issue is that every one has a different system and different needs in their systems to say that one person needs or has a better light than another is most of the time an argument that is going no were. Even if you want to say an sps tank everyones sps tanks are different from having different types to being fuller and such so i think that you cant even compare that with being fair to both sides. there is always going to be people that love t5 and people that love mh and those that love led really the point that they can make is that the light they love is the one that they have had the most success with for the system that they have had not everyone will have the same success. Not all lights are comparable there are always going to be pros and cons to all lights its finding the lights that are best for your system not someones elses. I dont think that any of these arguments are ever going to go anywhere but everyone is always to going to state the lighting that they have had the best success with. that doesnt make them better than another system but the best for your system thats all. but hey im still a noob in this and not an expert just imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Your wrong about the heater not being an issue and have talked to so many people who switch to LEDs and they thought they were gonna save more money and in the end there 300 watt heater killed all the saving they had from LEDs. Have you ever did the math on your electricity cost from the tank? The heater is a huge factor and lighs are another, LEDs saving should only account for larger tanks who run higher watts of metal halide and require a chiller. All in all I think leds are great and many people have success and many people have failed, the technology is still young and until then I'll stick with radiums or I might be buying and ati fixture in a month or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefboy Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 When u say "so many" how many is that? And unless your house runs very cold your heater shouldn't run much nothing compared to a halide lighting system any sounds like your pretty set and nothing is really going to change your view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBirkett Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 With halides in the summer you need to run your AC and a chiller because your tank makes your house feel like a sauna. More money wasted. I think if you like your lighting you have stick with it. If your tank looks good and your livestock is happy why argue. We all can't drive a Lexus can we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Like about 15 different people. I'm not set on using halides did you read where I said switching to ati fixture. Its just that you need I stop posting about leds and saving so much money on electricity on a smaller tank when they don't. Yes on a larger scale they will but to most people who run halide dont run chiller so that argument is useless. I know all about leds and can see there a lot of misinformation going around here on this site about LEDs. I'm just pointing out the things I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefboy Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 there enough options out there now that you can do LED cheaper then when I bought my first halides so cost isnt really the issue if your starting with LED lights only if your upgrading from a fixture you have already purchased and if your handy the DIY LED you cant beat as far as the heat issue debate I cant see heaters running much more especialy with internal pumps that generate heat on large systems I could only see this issue on small nano type systems but then if you run heat problems with other types of lightng so we can agree to disagree lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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