SULLY Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I am not trying to start a war here guys. Everyone that personally knows me can vouch that I will not keep thoughts to myself though. I am not trying to personally attack anyones thoughts or opinions and I apologize if that is how it comes across. This is mainly directed to Ahreno. I am not trying to piss you off or anything. I went back and read some of my post and they were a little hasty and for that I apologize. It's just that when stuff like this comes up and I don't remotely see the other side, I get frustrated. For those of you that think there is not alot of people on here and other club forums that buy, sell, trade, and frag to make a profit on a regular basis, you are thoroughly mistaken! I am not going to name people, but believe me, just my list of people is long. I don't want this next part to sound negative or to make people feel inferior. The reallity is there will always be people trying to figure ways to get further ahead financially. Wether you agree with it or not, it is around us everyday and always will be and more and more people as time goes on will do the same. I don't look down on them or do I feel like they are being unethical. They are just trying to get further ahead and that is okay. Keep in mind guys (and gals), this is just aquarium stuff. There are so many more industries that people do the same. Like I said. If anyone should be mad about people doing this, it should be the businesses. We are the ones that went out on a limb to start a store and are being undercut by people doing business out of their homes. But it does not bother me the least. I understand that this is the way the world works and that's how it's going to be regardless of what I think. Hell, I am good friends with some of the guys that are on here that sell out of their homes. So I want you to know that I understand what you are saying to a point. But things will always have a gray area. You don't have to like it, you just have to deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 just curious' date=' what sponsor is on the board and is it true thats against the "rules" of the club[/quote'] Article 3, Section 4 of the By-Laws specifically states that Commercial Members are not allowed to hold office or be board members. Doran is a sponsor, and is a great guy. He stepped up to join the Board when there weren't a lot of other volunteers. He's certainly one-up on *me* in that regard. He's doing a great job as a Board member. However, situations like this are (IMO) why the prohibition against commercial members being involved in club leadership was originally included. I know Doran would always vote his conscience, but even the appearance of a potential conflict of interest is inappropriate and potentially damaging -- especially considering the club's non-profit status in Oregon. Again, let me stress that while I do have opinions about the original topic, I'm not going to air them; me pointing out this problem isn't to be construed as comments for or against Sponsor activity in the Classifieds Section. I'm not looking to get jumped all over, from either side or the top or the bottom (though it's probably inevitable) (laugh) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downhill_biker Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I am not trying to start a war here guys. Everyone that personally knows me can vouch that I will not keep thoughts to myself though. I am not trying to personally attack anyones thoughts or opinions and I apologize if that is how it comes across. This is mainly directed to Ahreno. I am not trying to piss you off or anything. I went back and read some of my post and they were a little hasty and for that I apologize. It's just that when stuff like this comes up and I don't remotely see the other side' date=' I get frustrated. For those of you that think there is not alot of people on here and other club forums that buy, sell, trade, and frag to make a profit on a regular basis, you are thoroughly mistaken! I am not going to name people, but believe me, just my list of people is long. I don't want this next part to sound negative or to make people feel inferior. The reallity is there will always be people trying to figure ways to get further ahead financially. Wether you agree with it or not, it is around us everyday and always will be and more and more people as time goes on will do the same. I don't look down on them or do I feel like they are being unethical. They are just trying to get further ahead and that is okay. Keep in mind guys (and gals), this is just aquarium stuff. There are so many more industries that people do the same. Like I said. If anyone should be mad about people doing this, it should be the businesses. We are the ones that went out on a limb to start a store and are being undercut by people doing business out of their homes. But it does not bother me the least. I understand that this is the way the world works and that's how it's going to be regardless of what I think. Hell, I am good friends with some of the guys that are on here that sell out of their homes. So I want you to know that I understand what you are saying to a point. But things will always have a gray area. You don't have to like it, you just have to deal with it.[/quote'] WELL SAID. I agree. This is a very good way to look at it. I think that you are probably right about people trying to get ahead, I have done it myself, buy a car and try to sell for more, or drive for 6 months and sell at same price. yea been there. but never in this hobby. i guess this is just the nature of the beast. and i think my last post was probably correct for most LFS, and you too???? That if you dont agree with a price you can come to an agreement on what is fair. i am glad the items were sold fast, and also they went to a good place. doesn't mean they will be forever. may end up getting distributed to bad tanks, and die, but once again...the nature of the beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 The board should have said no when Doran offered his time and services as a board member, even though his contributions are valued and were helpful when no one else was able to step up - it breaks the bylaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SULLY Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I know what you mean. I have a tuff time biting my tounge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahreno Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 I guess my end feeling after thinking about it for a while is that it just comes down to ethics. If i had a customer base that had their own little thing going, but i was still able to maintain my shop, i wouldn't feel right about swooping in and interacting in it. Here is the solution i would like to suggest. Commercially interested parties are allowed to participate in the classified sections but only on posts that are longer than 7 (or 3 or 5) days old. Board members always have the option of calling the LFS stores to sell their items if they need them sold overnight. By having a time limit before commercially interested parties are available to pounce it allows "real" users of the site time to find good deals or have first choice on rare / hard to find items. It also doesn't alienate the sponsors from being able to get good prices while at the same time helping out a "real" person by buying their stuff in bulk. Like i mention, the seller always has the right to pick up the phone and call a LFS and say, Hey i got all this stuff to sell, I need it gone ASAP... Will you buy it? And if there is a sponsor with a personal tank that he wants to buy things for, that should be perfectly allowed but under a personal login. just my suggestion... figure i started this mess, i should at least have a solution that takes both sides arguments into consideration. Edit: i really don't see an issue with a commercial person being part of the board. When an issue like this comes up that deals with sponsors in general they should just not be allowed to vote on it... or whatever you guys do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowpunk Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 On the other end of this, it would probably help if the seller listed in the thread if he would like only hobbyists to buy and not shops, or if shops and all are ok to buy. Leaving it up to the seller would not allow others to be upset over a sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrgreenthumb Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Wow i find it amazin how inconsiderate and self centered some people can be. many a time I have wanted to buy something from classifieds and have been just a few minutes to late...that life you win some you lose some. Sponsors are people too!!! From my experience the majority of the rare le corals often go for double or triple what I payed for them at the local fish stores. Times are tight everyones trying to turn a dollar any way they can. Who are we to say its unethical to buy a coral with the intentions of reselling it for a profit? What is unethical about that?? I think thats got to be one of the stupidist comments I have ever read on this sight!!!! Corals grow and gain value, frag it, sell it, pay for the original cost of the coral and maybe even a couple more frags!! What difference does it make if its at the store or in a hobbyist's tank??? I have searched high and low for my le corals and I can tell you honestly not one has come from this forum!!! Why you ask? Because most of the time the seller is asking more than I'm willing to pay! Two examples: True undata for sale in classifieds for 65 for small frag, I picked mine up at upscales for 40 and it was at least double the size as well. Superman monti frag for sale for 50 in classifieds upscales has it at 30. I could go on and on. I can't speak for eugene but I have never been raped or pilaged in any of the lfs's here and I shop at them all. I know of a few people that have a sole business of shopping lfs's and classifieds and growing and reselling. Smart if you ask me. With how expensive this hobby is I really don't see a problem with turning a few extra dollars to help support your habbit Unethical... I think not Definition of unethical: not ethical: not conforming to agreed standards of moral conduct, especially within a particular profession http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=561534364 When it comes right down to it the seller has the final say. what business is it of yours, mine or anyone else's who he sell it too! I guess I just don't see anything unfair about this situation at all. I have gotten really furstrated plenty of time when trying to purchase things from the classifieds ex: I happend to be on late one night and saw a for sale thread pop up in classifieds. I responded to it within one minute of the time it was established. I responded with a pm and in the thread, that I wanted a particular item, and would pay whatever the askiing price was. Now i know I was the first to respond, and someone else the next day shared interest in the same thing. I get notified by seller that item is already accounted for. 3 days later I see a picture of said item in the persons tank who responded to the thread after I did. Was this fair...not exactly, but what I'm getting at is ultimately it's the sellers choice. Thats just the way it is. I just don't think it fair to single out the sponsors when everyone does it. And if you don't think everyone does it then you are just plain naive or ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahreno Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 Mr. Green Thumb. I apologize that you find my feelings "stupid". I will work to conform to your views better. I find it interesting that you're smart enough to be able to use a dictionary to define "ethics" but you're unable to use one to know the difference between "sight" and "site". Lucky for you I don't need to resort to calling people "stupid" on the internet. Ethics can also be defined as "motivation based on ideas of right and wrong" - i was simply saying that in my opinion it is wrong for a commercially interested party to come to this small association of people and want to capitalize off it in this manner. I really hope you don't treat your customers in such a manner... calling their opinions stupid is petty and immature. It's sad you had to take such a defensive stance on this as opposed to being professional and talking it out. In actuality it's the SITE that has the final say in whether its ok for sponsors to monetize off their classified thread. They may choose to let that choice be handled by the sellers but when it comes down to it - it's the owner of the site and/or the board members of the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downhill_biker Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 GreenThumb "I think thats got to be one of the stupidist comments I have ever read on this sight!!!!" Thanks for making this personal. That is a very bad thing to say, that is...unethical(nono). I feel that it is the buyers decision, and for me, a avid hobbyist with my own opinions, if I give someone a deal, because I want them to share in the enjoyment of that coral, they should pay me the respect not to turn around and sell it out from under me. I have had people come over to my house and LOVE my GSP, but since I got it for free, when they ask how much? I say...I can give you a small frag of that if you would like. It just really frosts me that someone would say something like that.(flame) If you think someone says "the stupidest (not even a word) comment you have ever read" keep it to yourself and pay the people of this site enough respect not to insult them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downhill_biker Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 MRGreenThumb: Just read the rest of your post. That line before made me so mad I couldn't go any further and had to respond. Just so personal. Rethink your ways. I am a very helpful and respected person on this site and in the reef community, and was just sharing my opinion, don't hate me for it. (flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePremiumAquarium Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Honestly, I have purchased hundreds of corals, algaes, inverts, fish, etc. I have sold hundreds of corals, algaes, inverts, fish, etc. I do it because I can both enjoy the hobby and make a profit. I have purchased and will continue to purchase things from the classifieds section. Some of the items I currently have in my tank, running my tank, or waiting to be placed in to action. Some of it I have resold to fellow reefers at a profit or just to break even. I have fragged hundreds of corals and have dozens of frags in my frag tanks that are available for may fellow hobbiests to purchase or trade. I will likely make a profit off of a colony that is purchased(no matter where purchased) because I believe that propagation of corals, I will both make a profit and I will spread a single coral among many hobbiests. What I buy and what I do with what I buy is my business. I also grow macro algaes and sell those on ebay. I have given lots of it away or traded it for other macro algaes or coral frags. There really is an infinate amount of possibilities in this hobby and I wouldn't have it any other way. If a business wants to purchase something that is in the classifieds that is great! I look forward to quickly clearing out anything I list in the classifieds and if a store wants to buy it, even better! At least I know that it is cleared out fast and the funds are in hand!!! There is absolutely nothing wrong with making a profit off of something that you purchase. We live in America and it is what business is based off of! I know that it certainly keeps my hobby going. I wouldn't be able to enjoy this beautiful hobby if I didn't make the money I do from ebay and fellow reefers to help pay for the cost of running my tanks! Believe me, every reefer who has purchased something from me or who has traded with me wouldn't have done so if they didn't want to and I would argue that most feel that they got a pretty good deal. Yes I make a profit and yes it is ok to do so otherwise I wouldn't be doing it . And to that point, you wouldn't have any fish stores to shop at. ITS BETWEEN THE BUYER, NO MATTER WHO THAT MAY BE(UNCONDITIONAL) AND THE SELLER! END OF STORY! P.S. If any of you fine folks would like to stop by some time to check out my system and maybe purchase or trade some frags from some really nice colonies that I have purchased over the years from various sources(including Sully, Upscales, Waves, fellow reefers, online, etc.) I would very much welcome you! I love meeting fellow hobbiests and sharing all of the cool ideas and corals I have gathered over the course of my enjoyment of the hobby. Just toss me a PM.(clap) Garrett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahreno Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 garrett - great post except for the PS part... that definately could have been left off as it seems like you're trying to rub the issue in the face of people on the other side of the argument... Do you have any sunset montis or other rare monti frags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downhill_biker Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 garrett - great post except for the PS part... that definately could have been left off as it seems like you're trying to rub the issue in the face of people on the other side of the argument... Do you have any sunset montis or other rare monti frags? LOL. he bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahreno Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 like i said before.... I'm trying to find some local frags of rare/LE items without paying outrageously high LFS or shipping fees... I can definately see each side of the argument and don't really see why i got personally attacked... i was just trying to start a conversation around it. I do think non commercial people should have first dibs on things but thats just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrgreenthumb Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Wow big difference in calling someone stupid and saying that something said was stupid. Smart people say stupid things too!! Good job in taking my text out of context I commend you! Thanks for correcting my grammatical error and avoiding the topic!! Kudos to you!!! Customers???? Defensive? Sorry I jsut felt someone should say something when it needs to be said!!! SORRY THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND YOU! So if they choose to let the sellers handle it....which they have....then wouldn't the seller have the final say?? If you ask me complaing that someone found a good deal on something before you did, and jumped on the opportunity, is very petty and immature! Get over it! This isn't the first time this happened to why are you just now speaking up?? Oh I see because it affects you! Sorry you think I'm immature because I think your comments are stupid and self centered! Get off you high horse you are no better than me nor I than you. Further more I see nothing wrong with taking a defensive stance in a situation like this. Someone has to stick up for the lfs's!!! This thread as a whole is unprofessional so why are you pointing at the splentor in my eye when you have a log in your own!!! I'm just amazed at how little you took out of my response!! Wow you just proved my point for me in your last 2 sentences!!! Thanks alot!! This SITE has let the choice be handled by the sellers! So why are you trying to argue that?? For the record seller always and i mean always has final say its their stuff not the clubs, nor anyone elses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePremiumAquarium Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Just as intended. Yes I do. I have several awesome monti frags for trade or sale. Some include: Idaho grape, Pokerstar monti, Superman monti, Leng si cap, Purple rim green cap(a stunner), Red cap, Green polyped fire engine red encrusting monti, Bright orange cap, and a few others. I am waiting for a frag of sunset monti from Sully and then I will likely have that for trade or sale as well. This post is by no means to get off of topic, though I think the topic is bland, dull, lacking, and pointless. Garrett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrgreenthumb Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 MRGreenThumb: Just read the rest of your post. That line before made me so mad I couldn't go any further and had to respond. Just so personal. Rethink your ways. I am a very helpful and respected person on this site and in the reef community, and was just sharing my opinion, don't hate me for it. (flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame)(flame) I don't hate anyone for anything..... I am a very intense person and can easily get carried away. One of my faults. I just feel that this thread was made very very personal before I ever came into this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahreno Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 This post is by no means to get off of topic, though I think the topic is bland, dull, lacking, and pointless. then don't participate. I'll pm you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePremiumAquarium Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Sounds good. I just think the topic has been kicked around a little more than necessary for such a simple concept. Garrett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGooseWhisperer Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Wow big difference in calling someone stupid and saying that something said was stupid. Smart people say stupid things too!! Good job in taking my text out of context I commend you! Thanks for correcting my grammatical error and avoiding the topic!! Kudos to you!!! Customers???? Defensive? Sorry I jsut felt someone should say something when it needs to be said!!! SORRY THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND YOU! So if they choose to let the sellers handle it....which they have....then wouldn't the seller have the final say?? If you ask me complaing that someone found a good deal on something before you did, and jumped on the opportunity, is very petty and immature! Get over it! This isn't the first time this happened to why are you just now speaking up?? Oh I see because it affects you! Sorry you think I'm immature because I think your comments are stupid and self centered! Get off you high horse you are no better than me nor I than you. Further more I see nothing wrong with taking a defensive stance in a situation like this. Someone has to stick up for the lfs's!!! This thread as a whole is unprofessional so why are you pointing at the splentor in my eye when you have a log in your own!!! I'm just amazed at how little you took out of my response!! Wow you just proved my point for me in your last 2 sentences!!! Thanks alot!! This SITE has let the choice be handled by the sellers! So why are you trying to argue that?? For the record seller always and i mean always has final say its their stuff not the clubs, nor anyone elses. you misspelled "splinter" sorry, I couldn't resist (laugh) Everyone has their own ideal. This is a community and as such the board is likely to do what they feel is best for the community. There are obviously strong opinions on both sides of the topic so perhaps for the time being sellers should make an effort to specify one way or the other (if they care that is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SULLY Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I would understand the first dibs thing if the Sponsor was trying to lowball the seller. I know that in most cases when a customer takes stuff into the store for sale, they are generally not happy about the price that is offered to them. And on top of that they will only receive a in-store credit. But in this case, I am just like the rest of you out there that would like some cool stuff without having to pay an arm and a leg for it. I didn't offer the guy anything other than what he wants for his product and he will get cash in hand. I am willing to pay more for it just for the fact that it is local, healthy, and I am getting money into the hands of a fellow club member that is trying to sell his stuff. You guys need to be a little careful on getting pissed off. If we don't play nice, the mods are going to shut this down. Me included. I caught myself earlier getting aggravated and starting to unleash. Keep the thoughts coming. Just exercise caution on how they show up on the screen. By the way. Where is CCR. He is always good for throwing down some rage.(wife) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahreno Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 Greenthumb. Settle down man. Jesus. I was and still am referring to this as commercially driven people. I don't direct it to you anymore than i direct it towards any one else that buys corals here to sell in a store. I've said a few times i understand each side of the debate. What I don't understand is why you are getting so bent out of whack about this. It's just a discussion board. I have never seen this topic breached on here before so I thought i'd bring it up. If it's been discussed before I apologize. I'm sorry if i somehow happened to personally insult you as that has never been the case. I never said you called me stupid. I said "Mr. Green Thumb. I apologize that you find my feelings "stupid"." which was in response to you saing my comment of "my end feeling after thinking about it for a while is that it just comes down to ethics" was the stupidest thing you ever read. Thats not out of context. The only reason this thread is unprofessional is the way you are handling yourself. As a side note, I do appreciate that fact that you buy products from customers as it avoids you having to buy from people that destroy reefs to supply your store. I just was curious what other peoples feelings are on capitalizing off the classified section here. if the majority of people don't care then thats fine let it be... if the majority DO care then something should be done to address this. Please refrain from the personal attacks towards me as they aren't beneficial to the conversation. you just said "You guys need to be a little careful on getting pissed off." That made me laugh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrgreenthumb Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I guess I just figured forums were a place to discuss ones opinions. Sometimes people will get offended for that i appologize. JMO. I know I say stupid things all the time if someone points it out am I going to take it personal... probably a little but hey that their opinions and they have a right to it and a right to express it. Just like arheno had a right to express her/his opinion about sponsors buying livestock. I'm sure plenty of people were offended by this topic as a whole, but thats what forums are for discussing opinions. People will get offended, but its not the end of the world. What I'm trying to say is this was personal from the get go, this thread offended me as a whole, even though it may not have been directed at me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chorse Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I feel that buying and selling should be kept on a first come first serve basis. the matter of who is buying and selling is irrelivent. I also feel that this thread has become personal and petty. A moderator should consider removing the thread. This kind of topic is very discouraging to a business that has paid to be a sponsor here. It does nothing for our hobby. If I see much more of this kind of disscussion I may reconsider a sponsorship for next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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