Sponsors buying livestock from Classified section

[ahreno]

There have been a couple of times that I have seen whole tanks or large amounts of livestock come up for sale in the classified section and then a "sponsor" comes in and buys the entire lot.

 

To me, I feel like that is a conflict of interest or exploitation of the site/group. As i posted in response on one of the threads it happened in one of the highlights of this site is the classified section. There are some great deals to be found on things that LFS don't carry. It's a great place for local people to find good deals on rare or other hard to find items and not have to pay insane prices at LFS or for shipping.

 

To see a full tank go up for sale complete with some very nice rare and expensive items is a sad thing, but it also means that those pieces are going out into our community... they'll more than likely be traded or fragged and sold for fair prices. When a sponsor comes in and buys the entire lot it leaves a bad taste in my mouth as you can only assume that those pieces are going to double or triple (and the size of the piece decrease) by the time they show up in their tanks. The likely hood of those pieces finding their way back into the community are very small.

 

What are other peoples thoughts? Should sponsors be allowed in the classified section? Is there any middle of the road solution? Am i overreacting?

[downhill_biker]

Here is the post I made in the other thread:

 

I can see that it is good to make a quick sale on this, and helps out El Salvador, but I also think that we shouldn't get in the habbit of this. Could you imagine if dealers came into the classifieds and bought stuff all the time, just to turn around and sell it in their store. I understand if Sully is putting it in his personal tank, that is just a regular reefer making the purchase, but if it goes in the store, I just fear this becoming a creature of habbit and being a bad thing in this "trading" "buy/sell" world. Most of the time we can get KILLER deals between reefers because we are trying to help eachother out, and if a dealer buys it, they are most likely just trying to help themselves out, with no knowledge or relationship with the buyer and their tank.

[Nyles]

I also think this should be looked at and discussed by the board....

[ahreno]

It's a fine line to look at in terms of allowing the purchases to be made for personal tanks. How is that montiored? I think that if a store wants the publicity of being a sponsor that is where their relationship ends. They get the publicity of the site but the classified sections are out of bounds. Blocked by IP address.

 

If someone wants to do a quick sale of everything then they can pack the stuff up and head into the store... Thats my opinion anyways.

[180Brandy]

Which we will do !!!

[SULLY]

Just so it's known. This absolutely pisses me off! I am so f'ing mad, I can't hardly see straight. This makes no sense to me. Why do I not have the same rights as someone else on this situation? Because I own a store? last I checked, I wasn't driving a Ferrari handing out $100 bills to everyone I see. Is it because, we, as store owners are suppose to have more mnoney than anyone else? Or is it because we might take some of the stuff and sell it for some profit to help keep our doors open so people in this club can have a facility to walk into and hand pick their livestock instead of having to order over the internet. Or even better yet, is it because I am competition for some of the people that would take this stuff and turn right around and sell it for profit on Reef Central or Ebay? I am disgusted with this situation and feel like it is a slap in the face personally to me. To me it sounds like some people are butt hurt because they missed out on the sale. Hey, we all miss out on deals all the time. I don't see why this is any different. Anyways, here is a copy of my post from the Sales section. I apologize I did not see this had been in the General section first or I would not have done the reply in the Sales section. But I do not apologize for the content!(flame)

 

Well I can see this is going to get bad. On this purchase it will all be going into a show tank. So we will squash any whining about that. And as far as a sponsor buying stuff and reselling it, who cares! Some of you people seem to have this mentallity that us store owners have a money tree in our backyard or everytime we go sit down on the toilet the $20's just start to fall out. Wrong! I work my *** off to make things work and you guys should appreciate that a little more than you do. I am not bagging on everyone because there is alot of folks that do appreciate the hard work the stores do. But the rest of you just don't get it. So if I took that sunset monti and grew it out for awhile and made it something that was a little more available by fragging it out and made 8 pieces instead of 1, that wouldn't be ok? I guess I don't understand the problem. Even if I took all of this stuff and turned around and sold it, who cares. Some of the LFS have to find deals like this to make a living. The idea is to have product that people want. Well, I can't always or even rarely get some of this stuff at the wholesaler. So does that mean that I do not have the same rights to buy it from the seller just as you do? It would be different if my wholesalers had tons of this stuff but I am buying it from customer to save money so I could make more profit. But they don't. And even if they did, that's life. How many times have you guys missed out on buying something because you could not afford the asking price or even better yet someone on the auction out bid you? I know I lose all the time. Does it suck? You bet it does. But that's how the economy works. How many times has something been posted on the sales forum that was so cheap in price it seemed to good to be true but you missed buying it by a couple of minutes? It happens alot. Who cares who buys it. I personally know alot of customers that buy low and sell high with aquarium goods and livestock. There is nothing wrong with that. I am a store owner. I pay overhead and have to deal with all sorts of business junk that goes along with owning a business. You don't see me sitting around whining because some of you are selling stuff out of your home, garage, shed, and so on. That's life. It is going to happen no matter what. I look at it like this. At least those sales are keeping people interested in the hobby. Yeah I am not making any money off of their sales, but they are going to do it anyway and if it keeps people going in the hobby, great. Bottom line is, someone was selling something, I bought it, that's it. What I do with it after I own it is my choice, not yours. Well, I am done ranting. It will be interesting to see what comes of this. The way I see it, I am helping out El Salvador buy taking it all and not trying to lowball him with some insulting offer which also seems to be a nasty habit that has formed here. And you guys know exactly what I am talking about!

 

Jason

[SULLY]

And just so you know. I am not a sponsor for this club for the publicity. I do it to try to help support the club. I don't hardly put anything in my little section. I don't even care if I have my own little section. You don't see a banner for my store up on top. And believe me, I don't really make anything monetary wise by even being a sponsor. I do not have many sales from people on this site. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the folks that do buy from me. But that is not my intention for being a sponsor. It is to help the cause of keeping the hobby alive and moving forward. I have always gone out of my way to help people on this site with whatever I can and alot of times it is at my cost. I am not asking for any special treatment, but I am asking that I have the same rights as everyone else who is buying stuff.

 

Jason

[TheGooseWhisperer]

IMO sponsors are members of this community just like the rest of us. If the seller wants to let something go cheap because they think in is going to go in a display tank and stay there forever then they can state that in the sale and try to enforce it themselves.

 

Most likely the seller wants the cash and isn't so concerned about where the item ends up. The reality is we ALL have the ability to snatch up good deals and resell them...you don't have to have a storefront to sell a coral, tank, pump etc. so while being idealistic about this situation might make you feel better it just isn't realistic.

 

Sully most likely helped El Salv out...I have a hard time envisioning the typical hobbyist buying a complete setup. Seems like most of the hobbyists like to build up a system themselves, but thats just my impression of the situation.

[SULLY]

Thank you!

[downhill_biker]

I agree that he helped El Salvador out, most likely that would have taken days to get rid of. I agree with the first come first serve thing, it is just the way things work, but I just dont know if it is right to have sponsors buying everything up to resell.

 

Like SULLY, I too have a hard time finding many of these corals, sunset monti, superman, pokerstar, ect.....let alone at a reasonable price. As a dealer it must be easier to get access to some of these corals. When I see something like this I get excited, a price like this, great! Now I have to wait until your coral grows to be big enough to frag and pay $50-75 a frag for these.

 

I dont think that this is as bad as it seems, I just dont know if this is something we should get in the habbit of. It could get really bad, and drive up the prices of the corals and equipment people are trying to get rid of, and cut the savings from the consumer. I think this section was meant to be a buy/sell between reefers and friends, where a certain amount of "deal" factor is given.

[andy]

If the Board is going to discuss this, it's needs to be mentioned that a sponsor is currently a Board member -- which is against the club rules. I'm not taking sides one way or the other, I'm just pointing this out since it is very relevant to this specific topic.

[SamatSLS]

Who El Salvador sells to should be HIS business. If I was him, I would be happy to sell to a talented aquarist like Jason for the welfare of my livestock.

 

If you don't want to sell your livestock to a sponsor and one approaches you, like drugs, just say no.

 

Instead of having our appointed board members discuss this nonsense, I suggest allowing them to spend more time figuring out how to make this club cool again like it was in 05-06. Seriously.

[downhill_biker]

This club is cool. People helping people. That is what it should be. There are so many great posts and comments in this site, and I am very happy to be a part of it. What makes it cool or not, is the people. If we want this site to be "cooler" we need to post more, and share more, and help each other out more. I know that I am trying to help the club be cool, we are having a Eugene Frag Party this Saturday at my house. Do I have the means, heck no, I have a small apartment with my girlfriend and we are going to put a folding table in the living room and sit in camping chairs. Is everyone going to have fun? Heck yea, this is going to be a VERY cool club for those who attend, because they met, mingled, and enjoyed time together.

[ahreno]

Wow. settle down. There is no need to turn this into a flame war. I'm 29 years old and have better things to do with my time than fight online.

 

It was brought up to be discussed. That's what this is here. A discussion board. I'm not trying to ruin your business or make you "f'ing mad" or slap you in your face. Take a deep breath... remember it's only the internet.

 

lets take a look at some of your points.

 

Some of you people seem to have this mentallity that us store owners have a money tree in our backyard or everytime we go sit down on the toilet the $20's just start to fall out.

 

Are you telling me that you store owners don't have the same mentality about us? I haven't personally been to your store so I'm not directing it at you directly... LFS around here rape and pillage customers. I have never found a "great deal" in a LFS.

 

if I took that sunset monti and grew it out for awhile and made it something that was a little more available by fragging it out and made 8 pieces instead of 1

 

No, the problem there would be the fact that you bought it for cheap from a small local community of people, fragged it, then sold each frag for twice what you paid for the colony. Thats where the problem comes in.

 

I pay overhead and have to deal with all sorts of business junk that goes along with owning a business.

 

We all understand that. No need to whine about it (to use the term you so often use in your post). We all know that you have to jack your prices up to cover your overhead and operating expenses. Thats sort of the purpose of the classified section. Is so that people have an avenue to purchase equipment and livestock and not have to deal with the ridiculous prices in a fish store (or the annoying salesmen, pushy managers, inhumanely shipped/handled/gathered livestock)

 

I find it interesting that you can't even see the other side of the conversation in this.

 

If you were a stamp collector and you and your friends got together and traded stamps together and sold them to each other at a very affordable price then all of a sudden Billy from Stamp Store started coming to your trade meetings and bought EVERYTHING that people had, took it back to his store and doubled (if not more) the price only to want to sell it right back to you. That isn't something you'd even want to discuss with your friends? Especially if it was easy to prevent Billy from coming to your meetings? Of course your friends always had the option of going to Stamp Store to sell their goods but instead they wanted to keep it in the community.

 

Just curious now, would you be willing to pay the retail price on these items that you would charge your customers?

[SULLY]

Here is my point guys. There is plenty of people on this site that buy corals from other people here on the site or from the LFS and turn around and frag them or sell them as they are and turn a profit. Does anyone complain about that? Nope. Why? Because it doesn't matter. If anything, me as a store owner should be upset about that. But I'm not. It is going to happen no matter what. So what I don't get is this. If someone on this site that was not a sponsor went ahead and bought all of El Salvador's suff, that's okay? I am going to throw out a name just because I don't think he would care anyways and if he does, I sincerely apologize. Randy S use to spend some time looking for the rare, cool, and quality corals to buy from individuals and the LFS. He would then take them and usually frag them out and resell them. I use to occasionally sell stuff to him if I had anything he was interested in. I knew what he was doing with them. That was his business what he did with them. That doesn't mean that I should not sell him stuff because he would buy it for $150.00 and by the time it was all gone he sold it all for $400.00. Don't shut out the stores for stepping up and buying stuff. I could drop my sponsorship, lie, and still buy all of his stuff. But I shouldn't have to do that. Just my .02c.

[SULLY]

"We all understand that. No need to whine about it (to use the term you so often use in your post). We all know that you have to jack your prices up to cover your overhead and operating expenses. Thats sort of the purpose of the classified section. Is so that people have an avenue to purchase equipment and livestock and not have to deal with the ridiculous prices in a fish store (or the annoying salesmen, pushy managers, inhumanely shipped/handled/gathered livestock)"

 

Just keep in mind, not all stores are the same. There is not one person on this board that can say I have ever charged them a ridicolous price or gouged them. To me personally, you sound like one of the ungrateful folks that don't care about the LFS stores staying open with comments like the one posted above this. I love people like you that complain about my "ridicolous prices" yet you will still call or come by when you have a problem or questions. And it usually pertains to something that you bought off of the internet because you could save money instead of going to your LFS and paying their "ridicolous prices". I am not trying to make this personal, but you are making it difficult. And as far as LFS stores raping and piliging you guys, come on. It's a business. What do you guys think it cost to keep the door open and the lights on. It would be one thing if I bought a coral for $25.00 and sold it for $200.00. It doesn't work like that. And if you don't like their price, don't but it. But don't flame them for trying to make a living. It is a business, not a charity.

[ahreno]

Who El Salvador sells to should be HIS business. If I was him, I would be happy to sell to a talented aquarist like Jason for the welfare of my livestock.

 

If you don't want to sell your livestock to a sponsor and one approaches you, like drugs, just say no.

 

I totally respect this side of the argument... but you also have to respect where I'm coming from. When a bunch of highly sought after rare pieces come up for sale and they're all snatched up by one retail store its a bummer so i brought up the point that it could be an issue to be discussed. Now that a sponsor is on the board it makes it harder to have an unbiased decision.

 

Let's look at the extremes of the situation.

 

1. Sponsor are allowed to shop. Everytime anyone posts anything on the board it is snatched up by a sponsor. Since you can routinely find killer deals here it would get to a point that you could run a store just by having someone monitor the forum and buy everything. Equipment, tanks, livestock. No "real" people get any good deals and have to shop at LFS

 

2. Sponsors are not allowed to shop. People post things and they don't sell. The price lowers until the seller isn't willing to sell at the price. Then the option of taking in to a local fish store is open (as it was in the beginning). They can then ask the same price as they started at on the board.

[downhill_biker]

"We all understand that. No need to whine about it (to use the term you so often use in your post). We all know that you have to jack your prices up to cover your overhead and operating expenses. Thats sort of the purpose of the classified section. Is so that people have an avenue to purchase equipment and livestock and not have to deal with the ridiculous prices in a fish store (or the annoying salesmen, pushy managers, inhumanely shipped/handled/gathered livestock)"

 

Just keep in mind, not all stores are the same. There is not one person on this board that can say I have ever charged them a ridicolous price or gouged them. To me personally, you sound like one of the ungrateful folks that don't care about the LFS stores staying open with comments like the one posted above this. I love people like you that complain about my "ridicolous prices" yet you will still call or come by when you have a problem or questions. And it usually pertains to something that you bought off of the internet because you could save money instead of going to your LFS and paying their "ridicolous prices". I am not trying to make this personal, but you are making it difficult. And as far as LFS stores raping and piliging you guys, come on. It's a business. What do you guys think it cost to keep the door open and the lights on. It would be one thing if I bought a coral for $25.00 and sold it for $200.00. It doesn't work like that. And if you don't like their price, don't but it. But don't flame them for trying to make a living. It is a business, not a charity.

 

I guess this is where ethics come in. If you are willing to drop your sponsorship and make a new alias so you can purchase corals for your business you are an unethical person.

 

I COMPLETELY understand your point about other people here buying coral to frag and sell on RC or ebay, but I haven't met anyone who does that yet, and hope I dont, that is very unethical as well, or at least thats my opinion and I would "choose" not to sell to that person if I knew. The reason for that is the same as the sponsors, things are sold here cheap to give other members a "deal" because they want to pass on the savings and cool corals to another tank. I dont think the intentions are to sell cheap so someone can make a profit. Some probably dont care.

[snowpunk]

I see both sides of this, and it make s me think of craigslist stuff. Maybe if we had a way for the seller to choose if he wanted all possible buyers to contact them about the stuff, or just people that want the stuff for there own personal tanks to be the buyers. I know at times there are people that are desperate to get the stuff gone in a hurry for one reason or another. I would love to get first grab at some of the nice stuff for sale too. Sometimes it makes more sense for the seller to take a small loss and sell in one large transaction then to hassle with many people at all hours trying to come pick up one piece out of a large sale. You must remember that although they own a shop, they are reefers just like us. I bet everyone that has a shop has an amazing tank at home that actually got them to the point they are now. To take the next step into opening up shop.

 

I think the only way to remedy this is to let the seller choose, when posting if he wants to be contacted by shops also. We (reefers) are buyers but at a small scale, and I think it is unfair to the seller to make it only available to small buyers. If it has to be gone it has to be gone. Stores can help that by buying large setups. We may not like it a lot but thats how life goes. It should be up to the seller to make that choice... Just my 2cents, don't hate me for it...;)

[downhill_biker]

Here is my point guys. There is plenty of people on this site that buy corals from other people here on the site or from the LFS and turn around and frag them or sell them as they are and turn a profit. Does anyone complain about that? Nope. Why? Because it doesn't matter. If anything' date=' me as a store owner should be upset about that. But I'm not. It is going to happen no matter what. So what I don't get is this. If someone on this site that was not a sponsor went ahead and bought all of El Salvador's suff, that's okay? I am going to throw out a name just because I don't think he would care anyways and if he does, I sincerely apologize. Randy S use to spend some time looking for the rare, cool, and quality corals to buy from individuals and the LFS. He would then take them and usually frag them out and resell them. I use to occasionally sell stuff to him if I had anything he was interested in. I knew what he was doing with them. That was his business what he did with them. That doesn't mean that I should not sell him stuff because he would buy it for $150.00 and by the time it was all gone he sold it all for $400.00. Don't shut out the stores for stepping up and buying stuff. I could drop my sponsorship, lie, and still buy all of his stuff. But I shouldn't have to do that. Just my .02c.[/quote']

 

SORRY THE ABOVE RESPONSE WAS SUPPOSED TO QUOTE THIS STATEMENT

[ahreno]

And yeah, I personally WOULD have a problem if someone that wasn't a sponsor on the site bought something strictly for resale. If ahreno came and bought the whole lot for his personal tank thats great. But if he bought the whole thing to sell off on other channels it would be unethical. Abusing / exploiting the purpose of the board... in my mind anyways. which is why i brought it up to see everyone's thoughts. You seriously can't even see my point in this? That it may be crossing a line?

[Guest Moderator2]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any of the discussion so far, just keep it civil and lets keep the thread open, board will review as with everything else they have on there plate.

[ahreno]

just curious, what sponsor is on the board and is it true thats against the "rules" of the club

[downhill_biker]

I also must add....If you think the LFS has high prices, talk to them, they usually are willing to work with you, but you have to understand the overhead and cost, but they usually can make a "fair" deal with you and everyone is happy. My experience anyway....

[JeffP]

just curious' date=' what sponsor is on the board and is it true thats against the "rules" of the club[/quote']

 

If that's the case, then there is no way that the sponsor should have been allowed on the board in the first place - which would be a major fault of the board/club.