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Another school shooting? Really?

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What is to blame then?

 

What is to blame is the fact that we are the ONLY western developed country that has almost no sensible gun control. People want to blame our homicide problem (much higher than other developed countries) on the internet, poor diet, vaccines, antidepressants, lack of corporal punishment (LOL), etc..., which are all things that other western countries have too. As an example, Japan has the most violent video game participation in the world, and they have almost no gun homicides... We are 20 times more likely to die of gun violence in this country than in Western Europe. We have 3 to 10 times the overall homicide rate of ANY developed country. What is the biggest difference between us and the rest? We have the easiest access to guns in the developed world. Crazy people live everywhere. In the USA, crazy people have a relatively easy time getting their hands on a deadly weapon. No, 10 people would not have died today at that school if the perp showed up with a knife or a box cutter.

 

Again, I don't expect to change any minds on this board, since I am communicating with a bunch of middle-aged guys (the biggest opponents of any gun restrictions), but every once in a while I feel the need to put another point of view out there. Of course, what is complex and difficult about this issue is effecting any kind of change. There is already a sea of guns out there.....and there are reasonable people want to have a gun to protect themselves. Every tiny incremental step towards beefing up sensible gun laws is weakened by the gun lobby, and then people point out that the few gun laws that we have aren't working. Well, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't keep trying and that we should just throw up our hands whenever something like this happens.

 

I'll get off my soapbox now and do some water tests. :D

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Right........that must be what is to blame for school shootings. Wow.

OK, I'll play :).….........

Without blaming guns, tell me what you think the root cause is?

A firearm is an inanimate object. It has no evil intentions. It can only be used for evil when wielded by an evil or insane individual. It is no different than a car, knife, hammer, or two by four. All of those objects are not considered evil, because they cannot commit evil acts without an evil person to cause harm with them.

 

I am not trying to be a jerk, I am just trying to figure out why some people choose to blame an inanimate object for the actions of some very obviously disturbed individuals.

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I have guns, I grew up with them and have always been around them but I still believe it's time for a sensible discussion about them. The argument always comes down to "you can't tell me what to do" while nothing changes and people keep dying. Taking away guns is not the answer, making them more difficult to get on a whim might help. The other discussion that needs to happen is one about the appalling lack of mental health care in this country. The bottom line is people are dying, anything discussion or change that might help stop that is worth trying, what we got going now sure isn't working.

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OK, I'll play :).….........

Without blaming guns, tell me what you think the root cause is?

A firearm is an inanimate object. It has no evil intentions. It can only be used for evil when wielded by an evil or insane individual. It is no different than a car, knife, hammer, or two by four. All of those objects are not considered evil, because they cannot commit evil acts without an evil person to cause harm with them.

 

I am not trying to be a jerk, I am just trying to figure out why some people choose to blame an inanimate object for the actions of some very obviously disturbed individuals.

 

Cars can kill people, but they are not inherently evil. We have seat belt laws to reduce traffic deaths. People like yourself opposed those like heck when they first came out because they restricted freedom. Well, what do you know.....do you have any idea how many lives the seat belt laws have saved since the 80s? That is one thing we can thank Ralph Nader for.

 

Now, we could have effective background checks that have not been weaken to the point of futility by the gun lobby. Would they be fool proof? No. Would they be an annoyance to responsible gun owners, well, maybe some. Would they save lives? Yes, they most likely would when you look at other western countries who have reasonably effective background checks in place. Would they always prevent tragedies, no. But maybe we would not be so far ahead of the rest of the world in terms of gun violence.

 

Now, was that fun?

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This kind of violence is truly disgusting.

 

Target killing Christians?

 

How about the report that people on social media were egging this guy on, daring him to do it. I think they should all be locked up.

Yah looks like he was posting on r9k I saw some screen caps...I can't beleive people encourage this kind of stuff.

 

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Well I am one of those middle age guys :laugh:  Love guns and have been around them all my life. Hell have a few now and wish WA would allow Class 3...... just stirring the pot :D

 

I do believe in gun control but I also think there needs to be a better justice system. Prison is like club med for some. I do like that fact that in some countries you mess up and loose a body part....just saying it might help. Jail is to kind in the US!

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In Oregon, we have bg checks for all transactions........lot of good that did. For the record, I never opposed seat belt laws, so yeah...........

You assume that since I am pro gun, you have me all figured out. I think if you met me, you would be surprised. I am a responsible husband, father of two, neighbor, and friend. I work my butt off for what I have, let people into traffic, hold doors open for folks, walk my little one to class EVERY day, and am by most accounts a "good guy". So lets try not to be so judgemental.

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Well I'm not middle age but I do enjoy have guns I like the challenge of becoming a better marksmen. And I don't necessarily Agree about the do-nothing policy of gun control can be good it's just the fact that the government takes gun control as you can either have it or you can't and as soon as they start getting a hold of gun control they start banning everything just like they were trying to do with our Corals and still currently I really don't think it's the guns that are killing so many people it's the people guns are in a make objects they've been around for hundreds of years and yes they have killed thousands and thousands of people but only because those people want to kill people I've never seen a gun get up and walk across the room and kill someone nor have ever heard one or even a rumor so you have to ask yourself what is new in the last 50 years social media the lack of mental health in this country the way the media portrays these acts of cowardice it's a messed up world out there and I'm going to bet of most of those other westerns countries most of the citizens would want their guns back.

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Yes spactar and tad2d I agree if we fix all the other [language filter] up things about this country and willing to bet that the shootings and violence go away even if there still are guns in the country if we fix all the other [language filter] up things about this country and willing to bet that the shootings and violence go away even if there still are guns in the country

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Try getting private messages from this guy to yet again Indirectly call you stupid. The only view Lexi can see is his own, he is right is his own mind, just like tat2d I'm a father, husband, working 40 to 50 hour weeks, active in my daughters school, fund raising, help out anyone, friends who needs it, hell last week I bought a homeless man dinner because not everyone should be judged by their cover. Yet he openly judges me and others because I support the right to own a gun. I was going to leave this alone but, why? He can openly speak his mind so I'll stress my right to do so myself, but hey I'm just another middle aged idiot :)

 

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Edited by PowderBlue

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Try getting private messages from this guy to yet again Indirectly call you stupid. The only view Lexi can see is his own, he is right is his own mind, just like tat2d I'm a father, husband, working 40 to 50 hour weeks, active in my daughters school, fund raising, help out anyone, friends who needs it, hell last week I bought a homeless man dinner because not everyone should be judged by their cover. Yet he openly judges me and others because I support the right to own a gun. I was going to leave this alone but, why? He can openly speak his mind so I'll stress my right to do so myself, but hey I'm just another middle aged idiot :)

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Yes but you are a middle aged idiot that does not depend on others to protect yourself, and your loved ones. That makes you alright in my book! If you are ever down this way, gimme a shout. I will buy you a beer.

I should have known better than to get wrapped up in this thread. Debating with a liberal is like having my wife's cat help with a home improvement project.........no matter how many times you explain it, they just ain't gonna get it.

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Try getting private messages from this guy to yet again Indirectly call you stupid. The only view Lexi can see is his own, he is right is his own mind, just like tat2d I'm a father, husband, working 40 to 50 hour weeks, active in my daughters school, fund raising, help out anyone, friends who needs it, hell last week I bought a homeless man dinner because not everyone should be judged by their cover. Yet he openly judges me and others because I support the right to own a gun. I was going to leave this alone but, why? He can openly speak his mind so I'll stress my right to do so myself, but hey I'm just another middle aged idiot :)

 

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

 

I never said that I don't support your right to own a gun. That is a straw man argument. I am talking about reasonable national background checks here.

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I'm in full agreement on background checks but that's already been addressed in Oregon and Washington, even privately sold guns legally have to go through an ffl. The problem is the enforcement of it.

 

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Trying to take all the guns away is impossible, there are an estimated three hundred fifty million. All that would happen is the law abiding people would turn them in and the criminals wouldn't. We would just end up with a nation of armed criminals just like Mexico. Criminals are just that, they don't do what's right. People like me that have quite a collection of antique family heirloom firearm would be turned into criminals. There is no way I could willingly turn over my families history to be destroyed because of a few dumbies

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Cmon guys please watch the language and please stop with the personal attacks. I really don't like having to close down threads but as typical with political discussions it's headed that way.

 

Can't we all just get along?

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Yes a background check would have stopped this....MEH 

 

How about he last major school shooting? Background check

 

Most of all these shootings come from people who have no criminal past. Nothing you can do but take guns away completely.

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Cmon guys please watch the language and please stop with the personal attacks. I really don't like having to close down threads but as typical with political discussions it's headed that way.

 

Can't we all just get along?

Sorry.

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Yes but you are a middle aged idiot that does not depend on others to protect yourself, and your loved ones. That makes you alright in my book! If you are ever down this way, gimme a shout. I will buy you a beer.

I should have known better than to get wrapped up in this thread. Debating with a liberal is like having my wife's cat help with a home improvement project.........no matter how many times you explain it, they just ain't gonna get it.

 

For the record, I never said any of you were bad people or "idiots." I just don't agree with your arguments.

 

Individual state laws on background checks are not as effective as a national law. I'm new to Oregon, so I am catching up with the laws here. This recent law that requires most sales to have background checks is a step in the right direction, and was new to me, until PowderBlue told me about it:

 

http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/33386692-75/oregon-gun-sale-background-checks-law-gets-off-to-rough-start.html.csp

 

Given that his law is brand new, I think it is too early to say that it hasn't helped, Tat2d. (If you are referring to this fellow today, he came from out of state.)

 

It sounds like several of us are in agreement that this would be a good idea for the entire country. Unfortunately, that can't happen because too many people are afraid of the NRA and too many people believe some of the arguments that have been presented here: People will just kill people anyway, even if they can't get their hands on a gun; the real problem is things like antidepressants, video games, etc...

 

BoringDave, this issue is very difficult, since as you said, there are tons of guns already in the country. However, 19 years ago Australia was in a very similar situation. They had a huge massacre and they instituted new guns laws. Guess what? After 20 years of effort they have made a huge difference:

 

http://mic.com/articles/123049/19-years-after-passing-strict-gun-control-laws-here-s-what-happened-in-australia

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Yes a background check would have stopped this....MEH 

 

How about he last major school shooting? Background check

 

Most of all these shootings come from people who have no criminal past. Nothing you can do but take guns away completely.

 

Some of them have had serious mental health issues that could have been used in background checks. But not all. You're right that it wouldn't stop them all.

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Interesting how they never compare homicide rates between these countries and the US. It's always "violent crime."

 

Personally, I'd rather be punched out on "The Tube" in London than shot on the Max in Portland.

 

Here's what it looks like when you compare HOMICIDE rates. Incidentally, these analyses come from the Harvard School of Public Health.

 

http://jonathanstray.com/papers/FirearmAvailabilityVsHomicideRates.pdf

 

According to the Harvard study, the homicide rate is 5.3 times greater in the US than in Australia. And it is 20 times the rate in England, both of which Brad's links would have you to believe have a big problem with violent crime.

 

And then in the US:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447364/

 

Here's a summary of several study findings:

 

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/

 

Most people take findings from Harvard on personal health seriously. E.g. taking statins to lower cholesterol will reduce heart disease risk. These gun safety studies are conducted with the same rigor.

Edited by Lexinverts

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If anyone is totally bored and wants to devote several hours to learning a bit about the NRA's communication strategies, I'll give myself a plug and throw out my master's thesis:

 

http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/handle/1957/49251

 

Side note: Not that it should ultimately matter because academic work should stand on it's own merit, but I'm in favor of personal ownership.....there just needs to be a limit somewhere. Where that is, I just don't know. So please don't think this is just gun-hating material from some NRA basher. It's research that was accepted by an entire committee of PhD faculty.

 

Anyway, it's pretty boring for a lot of it, but I think there is some interesting points in there.

Edited by Higher Thinking

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