Piero Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 interesting...Race Foster is challenging the LFS industry to offer 14-day livestock guarantees. Definitely makes the LFS more careful about the stock they sell. This may help accellerate trade reform if it becomes popular. 1) Original Post on Liveaquaria.com forum of RC: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1221073 2)Post on Industry Forum where Race stirs the pot. I'm not really a fan of his verbal approach, and he seems a bit too excited about pissing off competitors on forums, but can't argue with the guarantee and his business model is obviously working for him. Liveaquaria.com has grown enourmously since it began. http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=111915&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 thoughts? Ask your LFS if they can match it. If I were an LFS I'd probably require a water test and pics of the system or a consult maybe for the 14-day guarantee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVES Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Talk about blowing smoke. Race talks about "knowing his customers" and "gaining trust in the customers". BS, its not like you have to fill out a questionare to purchase from his site. Liveaquaria will sell a fish to anyone as long as there credit card goes through. what kind of gurantee are the wholesalers going to provide us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefgeek84 Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Talk about blowing smoke. Race talks about "knowing his customers" and "gaining trust in the customers". BS, its not like you have to fill out a questionare to purchase from his site. Liveaquaria will sell a fish to anyone as long as there credit card goes through. what kind of gurantee are the wholesalers going to provide us? I agree with you completely Joel, they will sell to anyone and have a budget big enough to make guarantees...Wholesalers should be giving guarantees...and then the LFS should honor those guarantees and until that happens LFS should not be expected to offer guarantees. I do feel that this is going to start to set LFS and wholesalers apart from others and will start to dominate the field... Cause it is super frustrating when you go into a local fish store buy a fish and it dies two days later and it was only in the fish store for a couple of days, you talk to them about it and they say, well we have no idea what happened cause it was fine here...when apparently it was not...And I know this to be true, cause I have seen fish that i thought about buying but thought I would wait a bit longer since it was just newly added to the store and a few days later it is dead (and if I would have bought the fish, I would have been told they have no idea what happened) and I am very happy I did not buy it cause I would be out cash... I am probably going to catch a ton of flack for this I am sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I agree with you completely Joel, they will sell to anyone and have a budget big enough to make guarantees...Wholesalers should be giving guarantees...and then the LFS should honor those guarantees and until that happens LFS should not be expected to offer guarantees. I do feel that this is going to start to set LFS and wholesalers apart from others and will start to dominate the field... Cause it is super frustrating when you go into a local fish store buy a fish and it dies two days later and it was only in the fish store for a couple of days, you talk to them about it and they say, well we have no idea what happened cause it was fine here...when apparently it was not...And I know this to be true, cause I have seen fish that i thought about buying but thought I would wait a bit longer since it was just newly added to the store and a few days later it is dead (and if I would have bought the fish, I would have been told they have no idea what happened) and I am very happy I did not buy it cause I would be out cash... I am probably going to catch a ton of flack for this I am sure... Jeez Brandon whats your problem??? (laugh)(laugh)(laugh)(laugh) I completely agree with you. I've held off several times only to find a couple days later the fish is dead. Or the coral is half RTN'd. A guarantee would go a long way in this hobby. Its great Race is trying to be the "pioneer" here, but it really does have to start with the wholesalers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVES Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I agree with you completely Joel, they will sell to anyone and have a budget big enough to make guarantees...Wholesalers should be giving guarantees...and then the LFS should honor those guarantees and until that happens LFS should not be expected to offer guarantees. I do feel that this is going to start to set LFS and wholesalers apart from others and will start to dominate the field... Cause it is super frustrating when you go into a local fish store buy a fish and it dies two days later and it was only in the fish store for a couple of days, you talk to them about it and they say, well we have no idea what happened cause it was fine here...when apparently it was not...And I know this to be true, cause I have seen fish that i thought about buying but thought I would wait a bit longer since it was just newly added to the store and a few days later it is dead (and if I would have bought the fish, I would have been told they have no idea what happened) and I am very happy I did not buy it cause I would be out cash... I am probably going to catch a ton of flack for this I am sure... it hurts just as bad when the fish dies in the store vs in your home tank. And it doesnt mean we know what happened. Some fish just die for no apparent reason, both in stores and in homes. I agree its best to buy fish that have been around a while, which is funny because I have people say "you should give me that fish for less because its been here so long". I say "this fish has been here and is doing fabulous, thats why it is more expensive". Honestly I would simply quit carrying fish if it became somehow mandatory. Unless of course the wholesalers were involved. I simply wouldnt be able to keep my doors open. I cant pay the bill for peoples poor choices of purchases. If they think its ok to add the 5th tang to the 55gal tank (If I knew it I wouldnt sell it) i cant be the one paying the bill when it gets stressed, ick and dies. We do "screen" customers choices the best we can, but its still in there hands to properly acclimate, feed etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piero Posted October 6, 2007 Author Share Posted October 6, 2007 I think the impact will trickle up if there is increasing demand for better quality product at the retail level. The bar has been set high by Liveaquaria, and it's up to everyone else to see if they can match it. If your customers demand the same guarantee to shop in your store, then store owners will be more careful about what product you buy and who you buy it from. And the wholesalers will need to do the same of course, but the demand to drive that reform will come from the consumers I think. Creating incentives like this for businesses to be more careful about the reef life they consume is a good thing overall I think. It's very rare to find a market/business force that works towards positive trade reform from the perspective of the reefs. Maybe it's a good thing that a market force is finally emerging that actually encourages more responsible consumption of reef life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefgeek84 Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 it hurts just as bad when the fish dies in the store vs in your home tank. And it doesnt mean we know what happened. Some fish just die for no apparent reason, both in stores and in homes. I agree its best to buy fish that have been around a while, which is funny because I have people say "you should give me that fish for less because its been here so long". I say "this fish has been here and is doing fabulous, thats why it is more expensive". Honestly I would simply quit carrying fish if it became somehow mandatory. Unless of course the wholesalers were involved. I simply wouldnt be able to keep my doors open. I cant pay the bill for peoples poor choices of purchases. If they think its ok to add the 5th tang to the 55gal tank (If I knew it I wouldnt sell it) i cant be the one paying the bill when it gets stressed, ick and dies. We do "screen" customers choices the best we can, but its still in there hands to properly acclimate, feed etc. I understand this whole point.... But knowing that fish die for some odd reason...so if a store sells fish that are fresh out of the box and they die in someone else's tank and the store tells the customer to bad that happens, it sounds like the stores are saying it is the customers part...which is not the case... Joel this is not a personal attack on you at all...i am just stating my thoughts here...I do think there will come a point that stores will start to offer a guarantee.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveweast Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 I DO NOT feel that a guarantee should be mandatory.....I would rather see the market place rule and offer choices to the customer. Perhaps a price with no guarantee and in the bag.....and a higher price for a week's guarantee....and a still higher price for a two week's guarantee. Live Aquaria's livestock prices are WAY higher than our LFS prices. They have the insurance price for a two week's guarantee built right in on everything anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefgeek84 Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 I DO NOT feel that a guarantee should be mandatory.....I would rather see the market place rule and offer choices to the customer. Perhaps a price with no guarantee and in the bag.....and a higher price for a week's guarantee....and a still higher price for a two week's guarantee. Live Aquaria's livestock prices are WAY higher than our LFS prices. They have the insurance price for a two week's guarantee built right in on everything anyway. I agree...and this is why I like to try and by fish right out of the bag because it is dramaticlly less money... I do not agree with Race and what he is claiming...I would just like to see LFS offer one... There is also something to be said for buying a fish you can see in front of your face and to demand a store to carry a guarantee is not good practice...like you said it should be up to the store if they want to offer it and let the people choose... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveweast Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 Exactly....if I want a guarantee, I can buy that $140 hippo tang or $70 4-line wrasse from liveaquaria (on their site now)....or I can go get a $40 hippo tang from Upscales...or a $28 4-line wrasse from Rose City and take the risk myself. It should be my choice. Now, if a local customer wants a guarantee, he should pay for that insurance....which is exactly what everyone who purchases from liveaquaria is doing.....guarantees are not free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrylics Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 I dunno, a guarantee that something will live in someone else's tank for 2 weeks is ludicrous IMO as "someone else's tank" is an uncontrolled environment. And how do you go about collecting on this guarantee? I haven't read the above yet but do they have requirements for your tank? How do you "prove" your tank is up to par? What I'd rather see is a shop that guarantees the animal has been in "their" tank for "X" period of time (2 weeks maybe, dunno) and offer this animal at perhaps a premium. 'Course they wouldn't have to do this to all animals but have a separate system set up for this. I don't know if this is feasible but might be nice. I just don't think that anyone should ask Joel, Travis, or anyone else to guarantee that the animal will live in a customer's tank when they (customers) can't guarantee their husbandry techniques. Hope this makes sense. James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JManrow Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 Just because Foster and Smith have this 14 day guarantee does that mean that the livestock is any healthier? IMO, It may just mean they have a very profitable business and can easily afford replacing the losses that are reported. Again, here is a very large company stepping all over the LFS. They probably lose the same ratio of fish and inverts as everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jptrson Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 Why should the LFS have a guarantee, unless the hobbyist could guarantee there system is totally up to par to support marine life. I know half the people around here don't even know what a skimmer is or even own a test kit DOH!. Risk is part of the hobby, not to say if a store has issues they could take care of thier customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowman Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 I agree with Steve here, you ultimately pay a higher price for their "guarantee". Has anyone here ever taken Race up on his guarantee? It is a real pain in the ... you have to bag the fish up, and send it back to them, they don't pay the return shipping. I think they count on most people not wanting to go through the expense and trouble of sending it back. I personally like to see the fish I am buying. I want to watch it swim, and eat, and see how it interacts with the other fish in the LFS's tank. If I want something special, then I ask Patrick to bring it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piero Posted October 6, 2007 Author Share Posted October 6, 2007 yeah all good points guys, although I'd think an lfs who can test water and interview customers might have an advantage there. $17 ocellaris $25 small copperbands $39 blue tang $44 flame angel I'm not seeing a big price difference, a small one perhaps... and honestly I'm not taking shipping/boxing charges into account and I haven't bought anything in ages either so maybe I'm off. If/when I ever purchase a fish again though, it will be locally most likely. Lots of people swear by mail order but I agree still like a shop where I can poke things with sticks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
180Bob Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 yeah all good points guys, although I'd think an lfs who can test water and interview customers might have an advantage there. $17 ocellaris $25 small copperbands $39 blue tang $44 flame angel I'm not seeing a big price difference, a small one perhaps... and honestly I'm not taking shipping/boxing charges into account and I haven't bought anything in ages either so maybe I'm off. If/when I ever purchase a fish again though, it will be locally most likely. Lots of people swear by mail order but I agree still like a shop where I can poke things with sticks. After poking with the sticks are you still going to expect a 14 day guarantee?? To me this is just an advertising gimmick by liveaquaria. This is like the rebates that many companies us to entice us into buying things. They know that only a small percentage of customers will jump through the hoops to turn in rebate forms or dead fish. This is just another expense for a very profitable business. Our LFS are in a completely different situation. I don't see any of them getting rich. I am willing to pay a higher price or take the risk that the fish I buy might die in a week or two when I shop at a LFS. I have received hundreds of dollars worth of free advice and information from local owners. If we don't support them, they may not be their to support in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 I am willing to bet that the good doctors are getting that 14 day guarantee through the wholesalers that are direct shipping their livestock anyway so what the heck does he care. Because just in case you don't know these fish that they are so high on they never see. They are direct shipped from wholesalers. I am guessing it is a setup very similar to what Walmart has with their fish wholesalers in that the wholesaler is required to provide the warranty on their fish. I will also guarantee you that this is completely a marketing ploy so that everyone will be discussing how LFS should be offering a guarantee. I have had customers that wanted me to replace a fish that jumped out of their tank. I think that if you are dealing with a reasonable store they will be willing to work with you even if they are pretty sure that it was a problem with your tank that killed the livestock. Unless of course every time you take something home you kill it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisW Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 IMO, purchasing a fish or coral that typically lives in the ocean and confining it to tiny box of water, is pretty much a crap shoot anyways. Why should the retailers have to take the hit on a fish that YOU picked out, dieing in YOUR tank? Maybe if the customer buys the tank, all equipment and maintainence contracts from the same lfs, they could offer a two week guarantee on your livestock. Two week guarantee huh.......if it dies on day 15, you're satisfied?(scratch) I don't think two weeks makes for a healthy fish. JMO. Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyles Posted October 8, 2007 Share Posted October 8, 2007 Steve is right, and not only what he said in his post is right but you will be increasing the cost of goods sold as a LFS store to uphold that "Guarantee". As a matter of fact think about what your paying for... Think long and hard. Your paying for a dead fish and another good one (if the guarantee is used), this is almost a "Who cares" policy on the LFS side and possibly gives the state of mind that if I sell the crappy fish to the customer its ok because I have sold him 2 at retail anyways at the guarantee price, I will only get my regular profit on 2 fish instead of being able to charge double for one good fish, so we can write that one off and get him a good one later. I only see more abused / mistreated fish and more profits for the stores on this one. I can see huge profit for a LFS store (selling the guarantee), or.... on the flip side.... Cost of fish on the LFS store could go way up if they get a bad shipment, It smells fishy to me. I have had trouble with only a limited amount of fish, but I would be uncomfortable with buying something that writes off the life of another. On a side note: One thing I will mention is that Best Buy makes more money on there "Performance Guarantee" than the profits of the whole store less the guarantee. It has become industry standard at your bank when you buy a car and at a dealership as well, because there is huge profits to take, I'm not paying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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