Lets talk monti eating nudis

[impur]

So i think about a half dozen or more of us have these little bastages or have had them. They are tough to get rid of. Luckily there is a bunch of info out now about them and there are proven methods to rid them. I thought maybe we could start a thread to outline some of our experiences and maybe help some ppl along the way.

 

Lets hear it.

 

How'd you get them?

How'd you discover them?

What did you do to treat them?

Was it successful?

Any losses?

Things you would do different?

 

Add what you please.

[impur]

I'll start!! I'm treating for them right now.

 

I think i got them from some snails. I got ich from snails, why not nudis? (laugh) I dip and inspect everything but inverts, i never thought about them bringing in pests.

 

I first noticed them on a monti cap. There was a small white patch i noticed one day, and when i looked closer i saw what looked like white polyps at the edge of the dieback. Seemed odd to me, then my stomach sank when i thought about that long thread over at RC on these nudis. I took the coral out, let it dry for a few minutes and noticed the little white polyps where moving.

 

So far i've been using TMPCC and setup a QT. I plan to do weekly dips for 8 weeks, inspecting the corals for eggs and removing/covering with super glue each time. When i found them on that first frag, i immediately dipped it in about 3X strength TMPCC and within about 2 minutes they were moving around oddly, and were reaching up to the surface as far as they could. At about 5 minutes they stopped moving. After this i gently ran some water over the coral with my baster and they just floated away.

 

As far i know it doesn't kill the eggs. I've found 2 clusters of eggs, one of them was huge. I would guess 100 eggs. There was 2 larger nudis nearby, i assume females laying the eggs. I covered the entire area with superglue. I've done 2 dips, the corals are starting to brown. Probably due to the stress from the dips, and the 10k 70w MH i have them under doesn't do much for their color.

 

No losses so far!

 

So far so good, i can say its working. I found about 6 nudis the first time, and only 3 along with the eggs the second time. I hope 8 weeks with no montis in the display is enough time to kill them all off. I used this exact same treatment when i got AEFW coupled with redbugs and it worked 100%.

[dsoz]

I am an ex-nudi addict (I hope I can stay clean). I probably got them from one or two sources... One was a LFS, and one was another member here. I won't mention names, but they both admit that they had nudis about the time that I got frags from them... I don't blame the person that gave them to me, I blame only myself for not inspecting, QT, and prophylactic dips before adding to my tank.

 

Soon after my discovery, I learned about the miracle cure of potassium permanganate. Since I am a science teacher, I have a lot of this around my classroom. I was able to secure two treatments (0.05g each) and put it in 1L of water. A 15-20 minute dip kills adults, eggs, everything. Most frags bleached a little, slimed a lot, and some didn't do so well. I was a little pro-active with my dipps, and treated a couple of acropora, pocillopora, and a hydnophora, along with my montipora. One pocillopora (orange) died, but the other (pink) survived. The acropora did fine, and the hydnophora did ok as well. I re-dipped after 1 week.

 

I did not dip anything else. The corals that I did not dip were frogspawn, hammer, xenia, and a couple different zoas.

 

I had a relapse about 2 months later. So everything went back in to the dip. By this time a friend of mine gave me a 10 lb. container of potassium permanganate from his water treatment business that he owned in the past. So I had plenty of the stuff to treat my montis. It only takes a small pinch, so I measured out a lot of treatments (I used the milligram balance at work), and put them in small vials that I have. The second round of treatments I did every week for a month. I was going for total eradication, and I went a little overboard. I probably didn't let the montipora recover enough in between dips. So I lost a couple of pieces.

 

I have now been monti-eating-nudi free since Christmas break. I am still paranoid that they are dormant in my tank. I bring a microscope home about once a month to inspect my montis. So far, I have had no new infections.

 

If anyone else wants the potassium permanganate, I will give it away for free. You just have to come to Oregon City and get it. I have given some to others to treat not only monti-eating-nudis, but also zoa-eating-nudis.

 

dsoz

[wegotjs]

Me and Dennis love to keep them. I tried TMPCC and Flatworm exit and something else I can't remeber right now.Tried them all at 5-10 times strength multiple times over 6 weeks and even thought there was some deaths it never killed them all and if you read at how fast they can reproduce(3-7days), the only thing that worked was the potassium permanganate . I think dennis can attest to the fact that you don't want to dip other types of corals as they don't have a great survival rate after the dip. Also the dip turns them redish brown , for mine about 2 months but I still do have 3 monties that made it threw the nudie's.I figure I have had them 3 times Once from a local store when I didn't know any better and again from a fellow reefer. Last from a local store that SHOULD HAVE BEEN PEST FREE For the price i paid and reputation they have.Just remeber I went 3 months in the display that had no new additions before I spoted them again so just because you don't see them dosen't mean with the other treatments they aren't there.

[defigart]

Not trying to hi-jack the thread, just have a couple questions for the chemist aka dsoz.

 

Potassium Permanganate is an organic oxidizer if I am not mistaken (although my spelling may be). Is that why it stains the flesh on the corals? I have used it to kill algae before, and fish (Koi, Goldfish, etc) lived through it. But I thought that it would kill all inverts almost immediately. (Obviously, some are more sensitive than others).

 

Ok back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[dsoz]

To be completely honest, I don't know the mechanism how KMnO4 kills nudibranchs. The rumor is that it is used in fresh water to kill gastropods (mainly snails) and their eggs on ornamental plants. That is why Eric Borneman first tried it on the nudibranchs. I would be interested if someone did know how it worked. Maybe dchemist would know and be willing to chime in. I remember he had the plague (nudis) last year.

 

You are correct that it is a moderately strong oxidizer. But that is not the reason it stains the corals. Oxidizers usually bleach things (hydrogen peroxide, chlorox bleach, non-chlorine bleach). The red/brown color is from the manganese dioxide that is left over from the oxidation/reduction process of permanganate. The MnO2 is left inside the tissue and pores of the skeleton, and is not soluble in water.

 

dsoz

[impur]

Great info guys keep it coming!!

[josh]

I had a bout with them this summer, picked them up on an aquacultured monti colony.

did the freshwater dip and ended up losing the colony, but got rid of the beasties. I think I had the colony in my system about a week. Didn't notice them on any more montis at the time and to my knowledge I haven't had any since. Gotta start quarantining all that goes in the tank.

[impur]

I found this article from reef keeping online mag. It outlines several different treatments attempted

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-09/eb/index.php

[impur]

Anyone know if these will start eating other corals if their main food source, montis, are completely gone?

[WAVES]

I dont believe any of you got these (or other pests) from me, but if someone ever does in the future please let us know asap.

[reef-fisher]

I have had these guys a few times, but not recently. All i used was an iodine dip and it seemed to work well. I now have somewhat of a QT that all newbies go through.

 

Impur...from what Ive read, and from what I can tell, they are much like zoa eating nudis; once the montis are gone, they eventually starve and die. I have not seen them attack another coral in a tank where I knew they were present.

[defigart]

You are correct that it is a moderately strong oxidizer. But that is not the reason it stains the corals. Oxidizers usually bleach things (hydrogen peroxide' date=' chlorox bleach, non-chlorine bleach). The red/brown color is from the manganese dioxide that is left over from the oxidation/reduction process of per[b']mangan[/b]ate. The MnO2 is left inside the tissue and pores of the skeleton, and is not soluble in water.

dsoz

 

Ok, ok. So I was correct in my thinking, and wrong in the chemical reaction. The stain is a product of the reaction due to the "left over" chemicals.

[fly guy]

anybody who wants to mail me a little frag with as many of these suckers on it as possible I would like to have it.

 

I will send you a few nice polyps for your trouble and include a prepaid fed ex slip to mail the cooler back to me

 

I want to both take pics and experiment with the potassium permegranate as when I had them I didnt know about that as a treatment. Ive got a couple of ugly montis I would put in my qt tank and let them infest them so I would have enough to experimetn with

 

Ill take red bugs too if you got em as well. just for some pics.

 

impur......if you want to we can maybe work out a polyp trade in the process

[impur]

anybody who wants to mail me a little frag with as many of these suckers on it as possible I would like to have it.

 

I will send you a few nice polyps for your trouble and include a prepaid fed ex slip to mail the cooler back to me

 

I want to both take pics and experiment with the potassium permegranate as when I had them I didnt know about that as a treatment. Ive got a couple of ugly montis I would put in my qt tank and let them infest them so I would have enough to experimetn with

 

Ill take red bugs too if you got em as well. just for some pics.

 

impur......if you want to we can maybe work out a polyp trade in the process

 

Sorry, i didn't see your post till today. I will look on Sunday when i do my dip/WC on the QT to see if i can find any. Last Sunday was my 3rd dip/WC, i only found 1 and did not find any eggs. At this point i haven't seen any damage to the montis in over 2 weeks. I am meeting up with Dennis to acquire some of the potassium permegranate on friday. My plan is to hit them with the permegranate on Sunday, hopefully finally wiping out any remaining nudis/eggs. I know i've dwindled their populations to very low numbers.

[impur]

Its been just over 6 weeks since i started my battle with these bastages. I think i have finally won. Sunday was my 7th weekly TMPCC dip. Its been 3 weeks since i've found a nudi, 4 weeks since i've found any eggs, and over 5 weeks since i've seen any new damage. My montis are in great shape considering. Most have browned out slightly, but color is still present. My leng sy cap, which is my largest monti, still has all its color suprisingly. I'm going to keep them in QT for 2 more weeks without dips to see if anything pops up.

 

I only did dips in TMPCC. I am slightly reluctant to use the KMnO4. If i have indeed won the battle i obviously won't use it.

[pledosophy]

(clap)(clap)(clap)(clap)

[fishiefish]

yea so happy for you

[dsoz]

Keep your fingers crossed. I thought I won, then they showed up again about 2 months later. I did not claim success until I went 3 whole months with no sign of them. Even now, every time I look in my tank, I keep looking for them, signs of damage, or eggs.

 

I really don't think that the KMnO4 is all that bad for corals. I didn't loose any corals to it. I lost a couple from the nudis, but not the KMnO4.

 

I am hoping for the best for your tank.

 

dsoz

[impur]

Thanks Dennis, keeping my fingers crossed for sure! I think after 2 or 3 weeks of no dips and remaining in QT if there is a monti, i'll find it. Then i will surely use the KMnO4.

 

I cannot find the answer so maybe you have an idea. I keep reading that the KMnO4 is fine to use on montis and zoas, but it kills acros. I haven't tried it so it could just be speculation, but any ideas on if/why this would occur? It would be nice to be able to dip all SPS in it to kill all pests: nudis, AEFW, and redbugs.

[dsoz]

I dipped some acros in it. Some survived just fine I have an orange acro that I broke a piece off and dipped with the montis the first time I went around. The piece that I dipped is still doing fine, and starting to grow now that my phosphates are low.

 

When I started to loose my oregon tort and california tort (started loosing all flesh and turning white at the base and worked its way to the tips), I also dipped pieces of them in KMnO4 to see if I could save them. I think the death was because high phosphates (again, those darn phosphates). So dipping did not save the corals. I also dipped a pink cats-paw and an orange cats-paw (pocillopora??) and both survived the dipping process. The orange one fell in between my rocks and got lost. The pink one is still going strong. I also dipped a green hydnohoria. I was kinda hoping it would not make it, but it came back strong.

 

I don't think I dipped any other types of corals. I did not do any LPS, and I did not try my zoas.

 

If you want to experiment with acropora, try small frags, and use lower concentration of KMnO4. Maybe we can come up with a "coral cure all" to rival TMPCC.

 

dsoz

[WAVES]

I have an orange acro that I broke a piece off and dipped with the montis the first time I went around.

 

If you want to experiment with acropora, try small frags, and use lower concentration of KMnO4. Maybe we can come up with a "coral cure all" to rival TMPCC.

 

dsoz

 

Are you sure the orange coral was acropora? I cant think of any orange acropora that Ive ever seen, but thats certainly not to say they dont exist.

 

Revive by 2littlefish is certainly a TMPCC rival, it works better IMO, is less messy and cheaper too. But im sure your chemical is dirt cheap if it works.

 

Has anyone tried it on red bugs? Does anyone know anyone with redbugs?

[dsoz]

Are you sure the orange coral was acropora? I cant think of any orange acropora that Ive ever seen, but thats certainly not to say they dont exist.

 

Revive by 2littlefish is certainly a TMPCC rival, it works better IMO, is less messy and cheaper too. But im sure your chemical is dirt cheap if it works.

 

Has anyone tried it on red bugs? Does anyone know anyone with redbugs?

 

I got it from Patrick at SWFS. He said it was an acropora. If you say otherwise, it is possible. Let me know. If you need more for identification, tell me what you need.

 

I do not have redbugs. I don't want redbugs. Just the thought of redbugs makes my skin crawl, just like my head iches when someone talks about head-lice. (scary)

 

dsoz

[impur]

Are you sure the orange coral was acropora? I cant think of any orange acropora that Ive ever seen, but thats certainly not to say they dont exist.

 

Revive by 2littlefish is certainly a TMPCC rival, it works better IMO, is less messy and cheaper too. But im sure your chemical is dirt cheap if it works.

 

Has anyone tried it on red bugs? Does anyone know anyone with redbugs?

 

TMPCC and Revive both work on redbugs.

 

I can't see why KMnO4 wouldn't work on redbugs. Its an oxidizer, so it should even work on you if you put your fingers in there! (scary)

 

 

 

Dennis thanks for the info on your dipping with acros. I'm going to take a small blue mille frag and give it a shot this weekend. I'll report back with the results.

[dsoz]

I know it works on me. If you get it on your hands, and don't wash it off right away, it will stain your hands, and it looks like rust (manganese oxide is the product, and it is brown colored).

 

When I gave you that large bottle, a lot (about 0.1 gram) spilled on my table where my tank is, and some on the floor. Every now and then I find a small grain that I did not get cleaned. More often than not I find it because I put my wet hand on it, and all of a sudden my hand is covered in purple (KMnO4), then there are brown spots where the speck of permanganate dust was.

 

Good luck with the mille frag. I would try a half strength dose first. One of those bottles in a 2L bottle of tank water.

 

dsoz