Mandinga Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 This idea doesn't really make sense. In order to be able to test for these metals, we would have to be able to test them from the water sample. If they are not suspended in a water column, then how are they coming up in the water test? If we can pull them out in the water and test for them, then obviously we can pull them out with water changes. There's no science to this assumption, but it is just how I logically look at the situation. there are different types of trace/heavy/transition metals...some that are free and some that are bound in substrate, rocks, etc, which are known as complexed. Some Free ions of copper, zinc, and other metals can be removed through the use of GFO...but not all metal is free...and in fact complexed metals cannot be removed with GfO or water changes(which is why you never want to use rock that has been treated with copper). For example, copper needs to be measured as a free, complexed and a total amount. Copper IS in fact an essential trace element in our aquariums, but at very low complexed concentrations. Iron is another example of an absolutely essential element that can have a dissolved amount and a free floating amount. When we use gfo, the constant grinding action increases the free floating form of iron, but not the dissolved amount. Referencing Dana Riddle of advanced aquarist Zinc is another which has a free and a complexed form. Free floating zinc is actively removed by GFO,. What many have concluded is that free forms of trace metals is that they can be removed with the use of GFO, this is not true for complexed, bound metals. Water changes will not reduce these metals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandinga Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 If water changes are not the right solution for reducing the tin, then the next ICP analysis will definitely show it. ! I'm not so sure...are they giving you a total reading...complex and free form...or just a free form reading? Check out this article: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/2/chemistry I have been researching this lightly for the last 3 months or so...when I stopped doing water changes it was in part due to European methodology that heavy metals accumulate due to poor salt mix, and that trace elements could be added on an as needed basis...not adding whatever a particular salt manufacturer deems important, and in varying amounts. Most people just use salt and trust the maker to mix up the correct elements every time. But the bottom line is that we have no idea what's in those salts! And even prepared foods for that matter. Less water changes IMO gives you more control as to what exactly is in your water, as opposed to trusting unseen sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClark Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 I wish Randy Homes Farley frequented our forum, but he does not. I may post your question over on R2R and take a crack at answering it here. Ultimately though I suggest reading up on Triton if possible in addition to those other articles you are reading. Here goes... Triton uses ICP testing. ICP tests everything down to the atomic level, all forms of tin. http://uniquecorals.com/triton/triton-labs-reef-aquarium-water-test-single-test-vials-with-return-shipping.html Triton Labs founder, Ehsan Dashti has developed customized protocols to utilize Inductively Coupled Plasma-Optical Emmission Spectrometry analysis (ICP-OES) to literally rip molecules apart with plasma that is heated to 10,000 degrees Kelvin for analysis. The ICP-OES machine has been adapted by Ehsan to test seawater for the ultimate in accuracy. Water is tested for precise concentrations of lesser known elements found in seawater that are either essential and missing, or detrimental and building up to high levels in the aquarium. The elements being tested for include Na, Ca, Mg, K, Sr, B, Br, S, Li, Be, Ba, Ti, V, Cr, Mn, Fe, Co, Ni, Cu, Zn, Al, Si, As, Sb, Sn, Cd, Se, Mo, Hg, P (PO4), Pb, I. That is what makes it so special compared to what we have had available in the past. In the past we had to worry 'is the thing I am testing for organically bound' etc... and how much the test kit can detect, are my reagents good, etc. There is no this form or that form of copper, this form or that form of tin. It is all tested down to the atomic level. The ICP machine heats the sample with plasma to a temperature supposedly hotter than the sun breaking all bonds reducing everything in the water to the basic elements. So based on this I am confident Triton will detect tin that is free floating in the water, no matter what the form. Reefbuilders Article on Triton (explains it way better than me) You will also be interested to know, Triton is a no water change European method. The only time you need to change water is at the start to dilute heavy metals, that is why it is so ironic I am doing a massive water change Oh, last fun fact The Sun is different temperatures in different places. At the center it is around 15 million degrees kelvin It cools down from there to about 5800 K at the surface (the photosphere) and the heats up to over a million degrees in the Sun's outer atmosphere (the corona). Hope that helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higher Thinking Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I'm not so sure...are they giving you a total reading... complex and free form...or just a free form reading?Everything you mentioned definitely makes a lot of sense regarding hard metals accumulating in rocks. That seems reasonable. However, like your question presupposes, if they can test for both free floating and complex, they both would have to be in the water column. This of course means they could be removed with water changes. Considering everything you wrote about accumulation in sand/rock (which again, I agree with) you would only detect that with a sample of the sand or scraping out some live rock. Right? At least that's how I see it. It only follows that if items are isn't in a water sample, they could be removed by water changes because they're in the water column. The rock and sand is a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClark Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 Yes, exactly, as @Higher Thinking states triton is only testing the water column, not rocks or sand. I have Tin in my water column, trying to reduce it. You can even calculate how much it should be reduced given water changes, bean animal has a calculator. As @Mandinga points out, if the sand or rocks is a sink/source of tin, then the water changes won't do any good. Just like when rocks are embedded with phosphate. In 1 year I have done one water change on this system until now. But the live rock and sand was used, which is common I suppose. So it is possible they are the source. If that is the case, I will slowly start changing out rock/sand as well along with water changes again, and test again. Well it is a fun experiment, thanks for tagging along. I will continue to post in the hope that it is interesting or useful to people and the discussion that goes with it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClark Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 Just a quick update... A few hundred gallons changed out so far (automatic and manual). Have to say, the coral looks allot better. 200 more gallons and it will be time to send water in for re-testing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Z Reef Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Just a quick update... A few hundred gallons changed out so far (automatic and manual). Have to say, the coral looks allot better. 200 more gallons and it will be time to send water in for re-testing... Epic level water changing dude! One day I should borrow your exchange pump and barrels and do this myself. Can anyone confirm that Jeff at C&c has triton tests for $30?? Need to do one soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Wow that a lot of water! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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