Triton Results For My Tank Are In

[Blue Z Reef]

Cool test, kinda worries me about the RS mag test, which I find very close to Salifert also...who's right? Overall I'd say they are, just strange to see that much deviation between what we all consider "accurate" home test kits. Guess I won't be dialing my mag dosing back anytime soon

 

Did you have a Milwakie salinity tester? Just bought Matty's...pretty epic piece of test equipment compared to using a refractometer.

[TheClark]

Me too, I am going to repeat the dreadfully slow test again before making to drastic of a change to Mag. I will also pose the question to Triton as to their confidence in the mag results.

 

Dude, I am bringing some water by along with my refractometer. Time for a second opinion over my el-cheapo refractometer!

[Blue Z Reef]

I do like seeing testing like this being offered, drives companies to provide better/more home testing kits and devices. Really hoping the Mindstream comes out, I'd love to be able to continuously monitor parameters like this instead of waiting, adjusting, hoping it's right, then checking after a month or so.

[TheClark]

Another post about high Tin readings on ICP test. We all know rusty equipment is no good, this just puts a number behind it...

 

If you have Tin, you should check for something that could be causing the increase, maybe corrosion from a pump, metal close to the tank or maybe even something you are adding in a supplement,

[TheClark]

Cool test, kinda worries me about the RS mag test, which I find very close to Salifert also...who's right? Overall I'd say they are, just strange to see that much deviation between what we all consider "accurate" home test kits. Guess I won't be dialing my mag dosing back anytime soon

 

Did you have a Milwakie salinity tester? Just bought Matty's...pretty epic piece of test equipment compared to using a refractometer.

 

 

Hey Bluez, FWIW on my Mag results vs Triton mag results...

 

I checked the tolerances on the Triton test, and tend to believe it. Their lab tests are calibrated daily and recalibrated every 30-40 tests. I found a guy like me on RC that had a high reading on his Red Sea Mag test, but a low reading on Triton here:

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2316890

 

 

[TheClark]

Ordered a 20 dollar salifert mag test to compare against red sea and triton...

[Smann]

Thanks for posting this, I love this stuff do AWT twice a year and don't really care what anyone says about it lol. I did have a hard time on the triton site not only did i have to keep selecting English almost every time I changed pages I never did find the test. I finally googled it and found it on the Unique corals site to buy the test. I only tested Ca and P04 before I sent it in, Calcium was 370 (yikes) and Phosphate 0.18 (Hannah) so not bad if P04 drops some as stated in this post.

 

Thanks again for posting this

here's mine

 

 

 

 

 

Note, upped dosing the day i sent in the test, Ca is 420 now and changed media P04 is 0.08 and falling

[TheClark]

Thanks for posting this, I love this stuff do AWT twice a year and don't really care what anyone says about it lol. I did have a hard time on the triton site not only did i have to keep selecting English almost every time I changed pages I never did find the test. I finally googled it and found it on the Unique corals site to buy the test. I only tested Ca and P04 before I sent it in, Calcium was 370 (yikes) and Phosphate 0.18 (Hannah) so not bad if P04 drops some as stated in this post.

 

Thanks again for posting this

here's mine

 

 

 

Note, upped dosing the day i sent in the test, Ca is 420 now and changed media P04 is 0.08 and falling[/url]

 

 

Thanks Smann for posting results, love the sharing of data.

 

Glad to see you don't have the heavy metal issues like I do... Do you do anything special to remove heavy metals like run PolyFilters?

 

Gotta get back to those water changes to dilute things down. ugh!

 

​If you don't mind sharing, what do you regularly add to your tank? 2 part, aminos, trace etc? Do you feed Nori sheets to tangs?

 

[TheClark]

Ordered a 20 dollar salifert mag test to compare against red sea and triton...

 

 

Salifert test was almost dead on with Triton.

 

PS: Red Sea Mag Pro test for sale, cheap! ;-)

[Smann]

 

 

Thanks Smann for posting results, love the sharing of data.

 

Glad to see you don't have the heavy metal issues like I do... Do you do anything special to remove heavy metals like run PolyFilters?

 

Gotta get back to those water changes to dilute things down. ugh!

 

​If you don't mind sharing, what do you regularly add to your tank? 2 part, aminos, trace etc? Do you feed Nori sheets to tangs?

 

I don't anything to remove heavy metals but that was what I was interested in seeing. I do the BRS 2 part, have never had to add magnesium its always maintained the 3-1 ratio so I leave it alone. I don't do any trace elements but I have a bottle of Lugos so I should put a few drops in, I forget about those kind of additives so I gave up on them. I have some Sheets of nori that I should feed more regular. I do regular water changes monthly sometimes more often if I get some red algae or just think it could use it.

[TheClark]

Doing some changes to the powerheads last night, I found a rusty razor blade in the tank. It had fallen in and attached to a powerhead magnet and gone undetected. If razors have tin in them, then very likely a possible cause of the elevated tin.

[TheClark]

I wanted to update on possible sources of tin found in my tank so far

 

- Rusty old razor blade slid behind powerhead magnet

- Shorted out power head (for unknown amount of time)

 

On the powerhead...

 

Doing water changes, my grounding probe was out of the water. I received a good shock when bridging (touching water) in another tank with a grounding probe (Everything last item is on GFI now, but that is a different story...)

 

After much troubleshooting I tracked it down to a sump stirring powerhead. The volt meter showed 3 amps, 100 volts.

 

Since the powerhead was shorted out, I have to assume it is possible that something metal was exposed. It is not clear how long it was like this

 

On the razor blade...

 

looked up the exact composition of the razor blades I am using. Looks like mostly iron. This most likely was not the cause.

 

I am curious though, the bad on top of the blade that is for holding onto, it appears to be a different material.

 

Chemical Composition

 

The following table shows the chemical composition of S2 tool steels. [TABLE=class: cms_table]

[TR]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD] Iron, Fe

[/TD]

[TD]97.0[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=bgcolor: #CCCCCC]

[TD] Silicon

[/TD]

[TD]1.05[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD] Carbon, C

[/TD]

[TD]0.4-0.55[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=bgcolor: #CCCCCC]

[TD] Molybdenum, Mo

[/TD]

[TD]0.4[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD] Manganese, Mn

[/TD]

[TD]0.4[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=bgcolor: #CCCCCC]

[TD] Vanadium, V

[/TD]

[TD]≤0.5[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD] Phosphorus, P

[/TD]

[TD]≤0.03[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=bgcolor: #CCCCCC]

[TD] Sulfur, S

[/TD]

[TD]≤0.03

 

 

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

[Bombertech]

Good find on the razor blade. The tin is still a stumper... Other than tin vapors from soldering or a solder ball dropping in :/

[TheClark]

Good find on the razor blade. The tin is still a stumper... Other than tin vapors from soldering or a solder ball dropping in :/

 

Never even thought of vapors. Too bad these tests are 50 bucks, otherwise it would sure be fun to run some experiments.

 

[TheClark]

From Randy Holmes-Farley

 

FWIW, this lists some possible sources of tin:

 

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp55-c2.pdf

 

from it (my highlighting):

Major uses of tin:

include cans and containers, electrical, construction, and transportation. Industrially important tin

compounds can be categorized as inorganic (those without a tin-carbon bond) and organic (those having a

tin-carbon bond). Inorganic tin compounds are used in the glass industry, and also serve as the base for

the formulation of colors, as catalysts, and in perfumes and soaps. The major commercial applications for

organotin compounds are as polyvinyl chloride (PVC) heat stabilizers, biocides, catalysts, agrochemicals,

and glass coatings.

 

 

 

[TheClark]

Figured it was time for an update.

 

Well I am about 140 gallons into the water change routine with the goal of reducing the heavy metals.

 

The first 60 gallons were with brutes cans on wheels were a bit time consuming., After a while I could see that my excitement was wearing on the WC.

 

A few events lined up to give a better option:

 

1)  Oxx sold some 425 gallon ace roto mold tanks

 

2)  I remembered that the aquarium purchased from moovinfast came with a dual head perstaltic high end pump.  (Cole parmer masterflex 7520-00 with dual pump heads)

 

 

3)  Jeff at Cuttlefish and Corals allowed me to buy 3 boxes of salt at his dirt cheap price.

 

With that equipment I was able to hook up an automatic continuous water change system.

 

A system that pumps water in and out of the system at the same rate, thus slowly and continuously changing the water at the rate of about 8 gallons per hour.

 

The tank sits in the back of the garage, unheated.  The pump is located on top of the tank to try and balance out the head loss (yes, even peristaltic pumps have it despite what you read).  I ran a line from the RODI in the office down to the tank to make filling the tank simply reconnecting a 1/4" line.

 

Ah, one last equipment upgrade, the BRS water saver upgrade to the RODI system to halve the waste and up production to 150 gallons per day.

 

 

The next 80 gallons were done 8 gallons an hour at a time, two times a day without lifting a finger, sweet!!!  

 

After this I will change about 3.5% /16 gallons per day for 60 days which should reduce the tin to about .2 ppb from the original value of 2.08.  All this is assuming that no new tin is entering the system.

 

So it is kind of ironic, the Triton system that pushes no water changes resulted in me changing almost 1000 gallons of water.

 

In addition I have been running polyfilters and more recently meta-sorb (although Sn is not listed as something removed by meta sorb...)

 

In about 2 months I will send in another sample and confirm the tin has been removed at the rate consistent with no new tin being added.

 

LPS looks tremendously better.  Could be the water changes, could be other things.  All in all though it feels good to have the automatic water change diluting the tin away.

 

Some resources for those interested

 

Randy Holmes Farley Water Change Article 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/

 

Bean Animal Water Change Calculator

http://www.beananimal.com/tools/aquarium-water-change-calculator.aspx

 

One guys automatic continuous water change article

http://www.glassreef.com/basics_water_changes.php

[pledosophy]

Dope! Just make sure to be testing your new water change water, especially with that high a level of water changes.

 

I'm looking to setup auto water changes in the future by utalizing a floor drain. I'd love to see how you have this all setup sometime

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TheClark]

Good point! a bad box or two of salt, wow that would be a problem.

 

The nice thing about the automatic continuous slow water changes is that the damage is done slowly, so if I keep up with testing any issues should stand out a bit.

 

Indeed, I do have a floor drain! It is used for RODI waste water, and now waste for the water change. It's ultimate purpose in life is to be a floor drain like you see under a washer and dryer, saving the house if something under the tank springs a leak.

 

Here is an old pic showing the drain and basin

 

Edited December 30, 2014 by theclark

[pledosophy]

I got a bad box of salt on my last move. I was changing water like crazy thinking moving the tank caused some problems, turned out trying to fix it was the problem. It's an easy thing to take for granted that your freshly mixed water is good. I lost most of my acros. But I've made such good friends in the area I got most of them back. Great people around here.

 

I'm planning to do a floor drain but also to have it come up through the sump as an emergency overflow, skimmer drain of sort. I guess my plan differs from yours in that I will only have to pump new water in, my pump won't need to take it out, that's what the drain is for.

 

Did you put the drain in yourself? I tried to hire a couple guys now but no one shows up.

 

Sorry to hijack the thread. I hope you keep it updated, I'm looking forward to the second test.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mandinga]

Clark, correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think heavy metals were removed by water changes...I'm loosely quoting reef aquarium vol3.

[Mandinga]

I just researched this in the reef aquarium vol3(page 643)

 

It is proposed that the accumulation of heavy metals is due to the use of poor quality artificial salt mixes.

 

So if they are right, your heavy metals will only increase due to your increased water changes.

From the book:

"Shimek proposes that due to artificial seawater mixes with high metal concentrations, and high inputs of food containing trace metals, our aquariums are like toxic waste dumps, and the result is an accumulation of heavy metals in closed systems."

 

They recommend the periodic replacement of rocks and sandbed as this is where the metals accumulate...they are metal, they do not suspend in the water column. This is one of the reason I have drastically cut my water changes...I can export organic waste, but trace metals are near impossible to remove.

 

There are other references to this in some dutch reefing articles I have read. If I can find them I'll post those also.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Mandinga

[Mandinga]

From Eshan @ Triton - Possible cause of tin, sharing because it might be interesting to you all...

 

 

Another possible cause is bits of solder falling into the tank. DIY LEDs are particularly at risk for this.

I remember when you first posted this, because it didn't match up with what many very accomplished reefers and doctors had concluded about metals...and how hey enter our system.

 

MANY many reefers have a trace metal problem, and I'd say a common denominator would not be tin clamps...I mean really...tin clamps are almost never submerged...and the idea that the salt creep on a couple clamps would cause so many reefers to have trace metal problems seems a bit absurd IMO.

 

A better hypothesis and common denominator would be the addition of trace metals through the salt mix that all reefers use.

[Higher Thinking]

I just researched this in the reef aquarium vol3(page 643)

 

It is proposed that the accumulation of heavy metals is due to the use of poor quality artificial salt mixes.

 

So if they are right, your heavy metals will only increase due to your increased water changes.

From the book:

"Shimek proposes that due to artificial seawater mixes with high metal concentrations, and high inputs of food containing trace metals, our aquariums are like toxic waste dumps, and the result is an accumulation of heavy metals in closed systems."

 

They recommend the periodic replacement of rocks and sandbed as this is where the metals accumulate...they are metal, they do not suspend in the water column. This is one of the reason I have drastically cut my water changes...I can export organic waste, but trace metals are near impossible to remove.

 

There are other references to this in some dutch reefing articles I have read. If I can find them I'll post those also.

This idea doesn't really make sense. In order to be able to test for these metals, we would have to be able to test them from the water sample. If they are not suspended in a water column, then how are they coming up in the water test? If we can pull them out in the water and test for them, then obviously we can pull them out with water changes. There's no science to this assumption, but it is just how I logically look at the situation.

[TheClark]

Thanks Mandinga, I have more reading to do for sure based on your references.  

 

If water changes are not the right solution for reducing the tin, then the next ICP analysis will definitely show it.  

 

That is the beauty I guess of having this testing available is the chance to do an experiment and measure the results. 

 

Really do appreciate the thoughts and input.  This is the value of the community, I value the sharing.

 

Will re-test in about a month or two to see the results.

 

On a side note, I do not expect the lithium levels to go down, it seems most US aquariums are high in Lithium due to salt mixes (leading theory) or 2 part over time (shown by RHF in some article).  That salt theory corresponds pretty closely to what you are talking about.  Water changes will do nothing to reduce lithium levels if that is the case.  They don't worry me too much though, as many amazing tanks are showing an elevated lithium level.

 

350 gallons on line and ready for WCs starting tomorrow morning, fun stuff!

[TheClark]

I got a bad box of salt on my last move. I was changing water like crazy thinking moving the tank caused some problems, turned out trying to fix it was the problem. It's an easy thing to take for granted that your freshly mixed water is good. I lost most of my acros. But I've made such good friends in the area I got most of them back. Great people around here.

 

I'm planning to do a floor drain but also to have it come up through the sump as an emergency overflow, skimmer drain of sort. I guess my plan differs from yours in that I will only have to pump new water in, my pump won't need to take it out, that's what the drain is for.

 

Did you put the drain in yourself? I tried to hire a couple guys now but no one shows up.

 

Sorry to hijack the thread. I hope you keep it updated, I'm looking forward to the second test.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

No problem on the semi-hijack, lots of good side discussions, the reason I love reef forums and our generally/usually friendly group here

 

I did put in the drain myself, I love DIY of all sorts and had access to a drain line under my office to tie into.  Not for everyone, but I enjoy that sort of stuff.  Otherwise any good plumber should be able to quote it especially if you can locate an existing drain line close to where you want the drain.

 

If my sump overflows, it goes into the basin under the tank and then the drain.  It would be a stretch to call what I have an emergency overflow though!

 

Thanks for the thoughts...