Twitterbait Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 I had a fascinating discussion with the guy in the pond shop next to mine and i am interested in your thoughts. We discussed how we often get people who will come into our shops and pick our brains for hours to set up their tanks, then they go and buy all their stuff online. Being a resource is a double edged sword for all reef shops and with the competition online it can really be tough to keep things going in todays economic climate. we came to a few points: Online Shopping good: can be cheaper good: more variety (sometimes) bad: shipping costs bad: fixed pricing bad: generally poor product support bad: no setup help or advice bad: warranty related issues bad: cannot actually see what your getting beforehand bad: no actual critter by critter analysis on compatibility (bad animal for your tank) bad: sometimes illegitimate, stolen, or non-warrantied items Local Store Shopping good: able to haggle on price (volume discount) good: no shipping costs good: expert assistance and advice for your specific tank good: expert setup and advice on setting up new items good: warranty assistance on items that break good: see what you are getting before you buy (in most instances) good: critter compatibility analysis for your specific tank good: support your local economy good: WINDOW SHOPPING!! get ideas for your tank by looking at our setups good: take advantage of local artists, suppliers, manufacturers, and aquaculturerists who have nice stuff not available on the national market bad: price is sometimes higher bad: sometimes have to drive for a while Yes i admit i may have missed a few things but in general that is the skinny. What we find disturbing is when a customer will go spend hundreds of dollars on a complex item online and then come to a local shop and expect free advice on how to set it up and use it. Most of the local shops would be happy to give advice on how to set up an item, in a way it is included in the price. so, is the value of an item online worth the difference in benefits from shopping locally at a shop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeFit Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 That answer boils down to the kind of person being delt with. I personally will spend more at the lfs just to support small local business. Do I do it all the time? No. I'm also a sucker for a good deal and love diy. But I don't expect something for nothing. I respect our local business owners resources, time and knowledge and make sure I support them as much as they support me. So my response to the question is there is a happy medium and the scabs who suck off of others and don't give back will get what they deserve in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talkalot82 Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 See me, I buy all my live items in the store, and stuff I might need right away at a store close to home. Like my heater breaks, or I need more filters for my aqua clear. asap thing. Then for those high ticket items I shop around for.. I compare cost of items plus shipping if I am getting it online. if its a couple bucks different I buy at the store. for instants I needed a five gallon bucket of salt. I use to get it at liquid sunshine and now they are no more. Aqua serine doesn't carry the good brand I like. I went on line and I found a web site that carried it for 47 bucks and shipping was $8.99. that was about 56 bucks. The store in town wanted almost seventy for it, and it wasn't even the brand I like. just some crappy store name. so yes I bought on line. But I knew what I liked. and it took three days to get here, and I wasn't in a hurry. Some local stores however have been cool about trying to match prices, or offer other options I didn't even know about. when I was looking for metal halides for my small 20 gallon eric at liquid pulled me to his giant tank, and showed me his t-5's next to metal halides over his tank. I didn't know they existed. he told me how they produced less heat, lasted longer, did the same thing, and the corals seemed to like it more in fact than the metal halide.. He got on the phone to his supplier right there, gave me the actual cost and when they came in, he showed me they worked, and I did buy alot from the store for that reason alone. Often stores have sales on stuff too. Like when I saw a tank set up and I go oowww thats would be cute in that last empty corner in my house. it looks so sleek. I just know that tank isn't broken cause I see it, and I dont have to wait days to set up my new toy, which I'd have todo if I was buying it online, so I buy it at the store. So i have to say, I love helping my local shops, and I'm sure I do keep them in business, but also I do have to be realistic. Do I need it right away, can it be cheaper. whats the hassles? cause I'm not rich and I too have to eat. in todays economee I need to think of my family first, then the local store. Not trying to knock some great stores or store owners. I do make weekely trips to buy invert foods and formula one and what not. The stores around here know my name, and I often have been know to make a sale there or two. In the end I do both, shop online and in the store.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nwcoralfarm Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 Yeah it's a tough deal when it goes down that way but I think most customers as long as taken care of are pretty loyal. However when it comes down to buying an item in a store for 400.00 or getting it online for 250.00 while on a limited budget it's fairly understandable why the decision is made. As a customer of many reef shops in the Portland area for years I can say that I have done the same thing, not intentionally, just that you form a relationship with the clerks/owners and look to them for advice occasionally with an unspoken understanding that you buy what you can, when you can, and when they have what you are looking for at that time. I do however feel that while this does happen sometimes, the advice offered (if good advice) will leave that person with a good feeling about the store and promote good sales. I am sure that there are people that use the stores as only a means to the info they need, but I can say from experience that most people are pretty good about doing what they can. I guess it is up to the person running the store to decide if the question is worth answering and the customer is worth the time spent on the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racefan Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 Fish and Coral I will only buy at a LFS. Dry goods..While I would rather purchase them from a LFS and do a lot,There are times when I just shop online. I make an average of 700 trips a year to Portland for work so the thought of going on the weekend is like working for free(laugh) Usually I will try to keep a mental note of what I need dry goods wise & get it when we go to Portland for something else(my wife knows a trip just automatically involves a LFS) Big ticket items..kinda depends on price. If an online retailer is selling a brand name item for a whole lot less I'll go online,if it's even fairly close I'll go LFS. A whole lot of it depends on service. I hate going into a store & being ignored. I'd rather pay a little more & feel like you like my business than to stand there being ignored. I also have no problem waiting my turn if your waiting on other customers giving them personal service. Sorry I got off a bit of a tangent there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralreefer Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 the attitude of "why buy the cow when getting the milk for free" predominants...I am a veterinarian and obviously get dozens of questions a day from people wanting free medical advice. Problem is, I paid to learn this "free medical advice" and dealing it out is how I support myself. I'll admit, it has taken a long time to sharpen my skills at what I'll say and who I'll deal it out to. My wife and I (who is also a vet) now tell strangers we meet that we sell insurance...you would not believe how many functions we've been to and left early after being bombed with vet questions from strangers who "love their animal but just can't see paying for medical attention" when they can carpet bomb us for answers for free... My advice is give free advice to your best clients...55% (been proven) of your clients COST you money...they take up your time, complain about everything and generally aren't worth 5 minutes of your time...it is extremely rare that you can educate these people into being better clients...let them go elsewhere and not spend money... DrMerle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 If a store tries to make me feel guilty for shopping around it's a safe bet I'll shop elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gradth Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 If a store tries to make me feel guilty for shopping around it's a safe bet I'll shop elsewhere. +1 bad: no actual critter by critter analysis on compatibility (bad animal for your tank) That was the main complaint I had with your list. I have been given more BAD information from LFS owners about fish so they could make a sell then I care to count. All local reputable stores in the portland area. Does it mean I dont shop there anymore, no, just means I do my research before hand(or at least try to). BTW a clown tang and a 55 gallon are not a good choice even if 3 LFS "owners" tell you it is. For me it comes down to customer service. If it takes an hour to get help then I will usually go elsewhere. Livestock I would rather eye and buy at shops. But dry goods, most stores cant compare with online places. If something that cost me 8 bucks online is sold at a lfs for 20 bucks, it doesnt take a genius to figure out which way to go. my fish budget is limited, so im gonna do the best I can, if that means buying online, then I will. If I can support the lfs's then I will with every oppurtunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef165 Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 If a store tries to make me feel guilty for shopping around it's a safe bet I'll shop elsewhere. This is my thought!! When I read this I thought to myself that I have said the same thing several times openly, but for a LFS to come out and say it is kinda shooting there own foot. However, I dont believe that he was trying to make anyone feel guilty, he was just posting the pro's and cons of online vs. at a store. I know that I have said several times that if ya let the store know how much with shipping ya found a item online for, that the store would see what they could do to lower there price to or close to the price you have found, This is the first store that I know of that with this thread has stated exactly that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefnjunkie Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 What we find disturbing is when a customer will go spend hundreds of dollars on a complex item online and then come to a local shop and expect free advice on how to set it up and use it. Most of the local shops would be happy to give advice on how to set up an item, in a way it is included in the price. so, is the value of an item online worth the difference in benefits from shopping locally at a shop? Personally the items I have bought online are not typically stocked at a local level and most of the stores I buy from match or at least come close to the price online which works for me to place the order them. I also dont use my PNWMAS card (what ever perks that offers-I've never even asked??) nor do I do the punch cards so many stores have-the ones were you spend "x" amount of money for a certain amount of once the card is filled When I have a LFS match an online price, I don't even bother them with warranty or problems I have with the unit. About 2 months I bought an APEX controller and the LFS matched what I could get it for. The unit was DOA with a bad base module, I dealt with the manufacturer on the replacement and the LFS was not involved. That should be the unwritten rule and what I always tell them "if I am going to beat you up on price-I wont bother you at all with issues-same as I bought it online" For someone to ask for a sweeter deal and then bother them with "troubles" they may experience, well that's just plain wrong and I was the store owner I would be(flame) Most of my corals I purchased online were from other reefers and LE stuff I cant /couldn't find locally-mainly chalices. My tank is full so its nothing but dry goods for me moving forward-someday, I see a new tank coming, and Jay and Ryan, I'll be hitting you guys up for certain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeFit Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 If a store tries to make me feel guilty for shopping around it's a safe bet I'll shop elsewhere. +2 I am a small business owner as well, but we all experience the retail side of things as well being consumers. I know what customer service is about and how to pick and choose battles. I will definitely shop around but i also am not into driving or calling around 10 different stores, 5 different websites just to save $2.50. If I'm treated well at a store thats close to me, i will 9 out of 10 times go right back to that store first and give them the option to price match, but i don't beat up, if i get a price match or something close to what i'm looking for, i'm not haggling more or going back to the other store for a lower price. I prefer to make friends in this hobby even with the LFS owners. Beating them up only makes future transactions less desirable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitterbait Posted May 23, 2010 Author Share Posted May 23, 2010 Keep in mind I am NOT trying to make you feel guilty. I am just trying to get feedback on this. Both of us have agreed that we will take care of a customer no matter what because in our experience most will eventually become a paying customer. I am more interested in what else makes you go one way or another. I am not pushing for some guilt trip or i would have worded things much more aggressively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeFit Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 Keep in mind I am NOT trying to make you feel guilty. I am just trying to get feedback on this. Both of us have agreed that we will take care of a customer no matter what because in our experience most will eventually become a paying customer. I am more interested in what else makes you go one way or another. I am not pushing for some guilt trip or i would have worded things much more aggressively. I feel for the shop owners. its a hard battle to fight. I've watched people come in and finagle free items off the store owner and then gander off and out the door. Nothing ticks me off more than freeloaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefcam Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 For livestocks, I prefer to see the specimen before buying it. As for drygoods, it's more of availability locally and price. If the local price a little more, then I'll just buy it locally. But if it's 2x more then I'll seek online. And also how bad do I need it. But many times I would buy it on-line and just have it ship to my house to avoid having to drive around all weekend to find a part. But then I'll do my research online on the product before buying it and not go to a LFS and ask about a certain item. I have also heard from some LFS that they can match online price and shipping cost and get it for me. But then will you deliver it to my house like UPS or FedEx or reimburse me for my gas to get to you? Seriously, if you can do that, I can buy it online too. But do agree that going to a LFS to ask questions on equipment and then buying it online to save the cost is not a good practice. I don't like wasting LFS owner/employee's time and then having them not get the sale. It sucks for them. But on the flip side, I don't see many LFS carrying quality equipments. Many look like DIY eqiupments and if I'm paying hundreds of $$$ on a piece of equipment, it should look like I did. There was a post by someone saying may LFS can post their stuff online so we can see who has what? that would certainly help me buy my stuff locally. I rather not drive to 2 or 3 stores to find no one has the drygood I'm looking for and then ending up buying it online. Saying you can get it for the same price is not good enough. My weekend time is limited and I don't have time to drive all over town shopping for my tank stuff. Now I just buy extra of what I need and call it good. here's an example. I used to buy Oceanic salt from a LFS for a decent price. And I would buy 10 buckets at a time to get the discount. Then I find That Fish Place sold it cheaper and with a $6.99 shipping rate and ship to my house, how can I say no to that. Yes, I had 10 buckets shipped to my house for $6.99. And yes, I will buy it for the price and convinience. So there you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitterbait Posted May 23, 2010 Author Share Posted May 23, 2010 that is what i am looking for Reefcam, thanks for that. it is important to let us know what to change. For many of us we can get almost everything out there but we don't stock it because there is no promise that it will sell. thanks for the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowman Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 I found that most people are willing to wait for the equipment they wanted to have me order it for them, especially if it was an upgrade. But 99% of the time the customer wants to see the animal before they buy it, so that is where we concentrated our money. Things like sand, salt, other heavy items are difficult because the big online distributors negotiate low shipping because they simply have higher volume than the typical LFS, therefore it gives them more power than the little guy. I always wanted to get with the other LFS and co-op bulk deals for heavier items, but alas, that was a pipe dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefcam Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 But I also understand that it is hard to buy good equipments to have it sit in the shop. Every location's market is different with the amount of money local reefers can spend on their equipment. IMO, if a LFS want to be successful, they have to extend their business to the internet and capture the buyers out there. You can't rely on the local market to become successful. It's a very specialize hobby and market to keep it fully local. that is what i am looking for Reefcam' date=' thanks for that. it is important to let us know what to change. For many of us we can get almost everything out there but we don't stock it because there is no promise that it will sell. thanks for the input.[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowman Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 Absolutely Jim, I agree 100%. There are a lot of manufacturers who will drop ship items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nwcoralfarm Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 The problem with running an online store as well as a bricks and mortar is that you still have to beat the other online stores prices or you are just another online store with high prices. The only way around this is to cut your in store prices, because no one is going to buy in store when they figure out they can get it from you online for cheaper. Once again there will be people local and loyal to you who would love (as mentioned before) to support your business through online sales, having the ability to check if you have the items they want before driving there. However it will change nothing, IMHO, simply because there will still be the same people who need/want to save the money and buy from the cheaper seller, either online or walk in. Take for example, I am willing to bet that almost all of us have shopped at that big department store that is well known for really low prices, poor quality and giving almost nothing back to the community. I for one try to support local businesses first but can say that there have been times that I needed something cheap, fast and knew where to get and bought it from them despite the fact that I know almost all of the employees have no medical, are underpaid and that my money is being sent off to some other area and will not recirculated through the things the are important to me. I do however feel that it would be well worth it to run an online store (with prices that reflect your normal prices) and offer a discount when shopping from there. This way when I (joe blow consumer) am feeling lazy but have a few bucks burning a hole in my pocket I can still buy, and by posting a "in stock" or "preorder" tag with the items you can display the items that you would like to sell without having to have them sitting on a shelf collecting dust, and the customer doesn't feel like they have to pester you with 20 questions when they aren't sure if they are going to buy it or not. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undrtkr_00 Posted May 24, 2010 Share Posted May 24, 2010 I agree with a lot of the posts here. While advice from LFS can be very helpful, there can be some drawbacks, too. Some LFS will try to tell you whatever you want to hear so they can make the sale. Also, especially with livestock choices, it can be hard for the LFS to make a good recommendation without knowing everything about a customer's tank. This is not the fault of the LFS, but between all the different kinds of fish, corals, shrimp, snails, crabs, etc. there are a lot of different compatability issues that can come up. So, I think sometimes LFS folks will make a bad recommendation and not realize it. I prefer to do more research on my own. If I count on what a LFS says, I consider it a gamble. From the perspective of a LFS, especially a new one, I would say the best thing you can do is ask a lot of questions about the customer's tank before making a recommendation, and do whatever you can to make sure you give the best advice. That may cost you sales in the short term, but if you establish a reputation for honest, good advice, I have to imagine it will pay off over time. I, too, buy the vast majority of my livestock from LFS because I like to see it in person, to make sure there is no photo trickery, and because there is no risk in shipping. You can be sure it is in good condition before taking it home. When it comes to livestock, if it were not for all the great LFS in our area, I'm sure I wouldn't be in this hobby. 'Course then I'd have a lot more money to play with DOH! The equipment side is hard. There are so many different options out there for lighting, skimmers, tanks, sumps, etc. that there is no way a small shop can carry a full selection of everything. I try to get test kits, salt, bulbs etc. from the LFS, but some of the major equipment is going to be tough for a LFS to compete on. Probably the best thing an LFS can do is establish relationships with customers who come to trust you and make it clear that you can place orders for stuff you cannot stock (put up signs saying this, etc). On the idea of having a web site for the LFS, one way to do it would be post lists of items in stock, but not prices. Livestock photos would be a major bonus, IMO. But, it would have to be really thought out well and easy to update, or the cost/effort would quickly outweigh the benefit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowman Posted May 24, 2010 Share Posted May 24, 2010 Good stuff Brian!!! I agree with asking before you sell them livestock. I don't know how many people I tried to talk out of buying something that was not right for their tank, be it size, lighting, skill level, compatability, whatever. There are too many shops who look for the quick buck and will sell some one a fish or coral that is not right for the customer's tank. Very short sided in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgf86123 Posted May 24, 2010 Share Posted May 24, 2010 The biggest thing for me is, I don't like to be hassled as soon as I walk into the store. I'd rather look around and then if I find something I want or have a question, I'll come up to you. That's probably our biggest pet peeve. Neither of us are what you'd call people people, and don't like being given the sales pitch or anything like that. If we have questions, we'll come up to you, but please don't come up to us. Getting back to my original point, thats the biggest thing against the brick and mortar stores, online, well, you don't get hit with the sales pitch or hassled by staff wanting to sell you something, you can shop at your own pace. I'd probably spend a LOT more time in LFS's if it wasn't for that, that goes for both of us actually. Oh, and having the prices for each fish either on a chart or on the side of the tank, that way a person doesn't have to constantly ask how much something is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undrtkr_00 Posted May 24, 2010 Share Posted May 24, 2010 Oh, and having the prices for each fish either on a chart or on the side of the tank, that way a person doesn't have to constantly ask how much something is. +1 - posted prices are a bonus for me. The customer service thing is a challenge for the LFS. Some folks like to be waited on hand and foot. Others (like Mick) like to be left alone until they come looking for help. I'm somewhere in between. Seems like whenever I need help at Home Depot, there is nobody around, but when I just want to browse, someone is asking how my day is going, what I am looking for, etc. Maybe I'm just never satisfied... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckie Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 I like to shop locally. The closest thing to on line buying I've done is bid on items from "ocean in a box", which is local. I have asked LFS to order what I want that they do not have on hand. I know that times are hard all over. I believe in the therory that what I spend to support the small store will stay in my area. I hope to continue that practice. I like to be treated with respect & kindness when I walk in and happy when I leave. If thats what I get then you get my hard earned dime. Beckie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitterbait Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 I am getting a lot of good ideas from your comments so far. i appreciate you humoring me. I also welcome comments from the other shops as well. It is important for us to know the general attitude of the shopper out there. it is a tough thing to make everyone happy but i think we can make more happy with a little research. I know i built my store from the side of a customer who has been in the trade for over 10 years. but everyone has their style. I like to get feedback. thanks to all of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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