Bulk Reef Supply Group Order?

[undrtkr_00]

I was thinking of placing a bulk reef supply order in the next few weeks, and it sounds like a couple other folks are planning to, as well. If we can get 15 people to sign up, we have enough for a group buy, which means serious savings for everyone involved.

 

In addition to bulk chemical items like carbon, GFO, magnesium, cal, and alk supplements, they also have everything from light bulbs to return pumps to skimmers to base rock to... well you get the idea. Lotsa different stuff.

 

Unlike group buys for some other things, with BRS, we all place orders with the web site individually, and your individual order is shipped to your house (or other destination of your choice). The only thing we have to do as a group is submit our e-mail addresses up front. We don't all have to order the same items, or have a single delivery point and then try to deal with splitting the stuff up. Couldn't be easier, really. Once the group buy is active, you'll have one week to place your order, and the discounts are significant. Bob (Lowman) organized one of these several months ago, and I think everyone involved was pretty pleased with the results. They have changed the rules slightly since then, in that you now have to have 15 participants (was 10, I believe), but the club/group is no longer limited to once/year - we can do it as often as we can get 15 names together.

 

Further details are here:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/i8/Group-and-Club-Buys/information.html

 

 

I was thinking of setting it up for the week beginning Sept 6th, which is the week of Labor Day. That gives us a couple of weeks to figure out who is going to participate (and scratch together some cash).

 

If you're interested, PM me your e-mail address (that's what BRS uses to identify you). I promise I won't sell it to a spam bot. (naughty) Also, if you aren't registered with Bulk Reef Supply, do that now, and make sure that the e-mail address you use there is the same one that you send to me.

 

OK now, who's in?

[finch6013]

Im in of course but you knew that. PM incoming

[jason7504]

i could use some GFO and maybe carbon and kalk..so im in

[coralreefer]

GRRRRR!! I just placed an order over the weekend!!!

 

I think I proposed 6 months ago (or more) that we should think about setting preset dates (like January 15th, April 15th....quarterly)....just to see if we could get more people involved, knowing ahead of time there was a group buy coming up...I should have followed through with the idea as it was the single best idea I've ever had in my life!!! GGGRRRR!!!!

 

DrMerle

[finch6013]

can people put their name on the list even if they dont order? that way the people that want it can get the discount

[finch6013]

sounds like you can and according to the info if you sign up you get put as a prefered reefer and get permanent small discounts even after the week of ordering ends. So sign up people! Even if you dont order you still get furture discounts

[undrtkr_00]

GRRRRR!! I just placed an order over the weekend!!!

 

I think I proposed 6 months ago (or more) that we should think about setting preset dates (like January 15th, April 15th....quarterly)....just to see if we could get more people involved, knowing ahead of time there was a group buy coming up...I should have followed through with the idea as it was the single best idea I've ever had in my life!!! GGGRRRR!!!!

 

DrMerle

 

DOH! I knew I'd get at least one post like this. Single best idea ever... rofl

[theJenchild]

I'll put my name down

[Chief]

PM sent

 

Jay

[snowpunk]

THoughts have been brewing, so I think I am in... PM coming your way...

[dsoz]

sounds like you can and according to the info if you sign up you get put as a prefered reefer and get permanent small discounts even after the week of ordering ends. So sign up people! Even if you dont order you still get furture discounts

 

I don't know about the permanent discount...

 

After you first asked me if I was interested, I logged in and set up an order for a bucket of calcium chloride for the 2-part to see what the "discount" was. It came back as the most expensive price. :( I am not impressed with the "permanent discount"

 

When the group buy was in effect, I was getting the best price. I was impressed with the price at that time.

 

dsoz

[tidalsculpin]

I'd be interested if I knew what the % discount was. Last time (?) I think it seemed like free shipping on some heavy stuff. BTW aren't we still " a group buy group from the one Bob organized?

[WAVES]

Ive got an idea,,, I know the club still hasnt caught onto this yet,, and I feel I can say this because I will no longer own my own store in 5 weeks...

 

But how about supporting sponsors instead?

 

I have had countless people come in and say "Im so sad your leaving", yet they want to do a group buy and bypass the retailers in the area. (not specifically this thread, just the nature of this club in general)

 

If you want the remaining stores to stick around, why dont you spend your money there instead of online?

 

I know I know,, you only have so much money. Well how much do you think that bucket of salt, or that $5 frag will cost when you have to pay shipping? Or when you have a pump burn up and you are desperate!? Are you going to pay overnight shipping or call the LFS for help?

 

SUPPORT LOCAL STORES! IF the club supports them, they will support you.

 

This may seem unfair, or "angry", we all have different opinions and different points of view, really my situation has just put me in a position where I can speak my mind.

 

I thank all of you that have supported me and other local business, without you, I wouldnt have wanted to stay in the business as long as I did. I really enjoyed my time owning Waves, but I must say, PNWMAS did me more harm than good in my time as owner of the LFS. Threads like this are case in point.

[finch6013]

I totally agree with you and I always support the locals even when I have to spend more. But in my case I need bulk two part and I have never seen a store that carrys it. I am sure if they ordered it for me it would be so expensive I would have to quit the hobby with how much I dose

[Jay]

I am thinking I want some magnesium. How much is my share and what would be my cut of the loot? Everyplace I have talked to has wanted like 30 bucks for a good amount of product. I buy some things local but wont throw my money away when I can save a bunch either.

 

Jay

 

 

I was thinking of placing a bulk reef supply order in the next few weeks, and it sounds like a couple other folks are planning to, as well. If we can get 15 people to sign up, we have enough for a group buy, which means serious savings for everyone involved.

 

In addition to bulk chemical items like carbon, GFO, magnesium, cal, and alk supplements, they also have everything from light bulbs to return pumps to skimmers to base rock to... well you get the idea. Lotsa different stuff.

 

Unlike group buys for some other things, with BRS, we all place orders with the web site individually, and your individual order is shipped to your house (or other destination of your choice). The only thing we have to do as a group is submit our e-mail addresses up front. We don't all have to order the same items, or have a single delivery point and then try to deal with splitting the stuff up. Couldn't be easier, really. Once the group buy is active, you'll have one week to place your order, and the discounts are significant. Bob (Lowman) organized one of these several months ago, and I think everyone involved was pretty pleased with the results. They have changed the rules slightly since then, in that you now have to have 15 participants (was 10, I believe), but the club/group is no longer limited to once/year - we can do it as often as we can get 15 names together.

 

Further details are here:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/i8/Group-and-Club-Buys/information.html

 

 

I was thinking of setting it up for the week beginning Sept 6th, which is the week of Labor Day. That gives us a couple of weeks to figure out who is going to participate (and scratch together some cash).

 

If you're interested, PM me your e-mail address (that's what BRS uses to identify you). I promise I won't sell it to a spam bot. (naughty) Also, if you aren't registered with Bulk Reef Supply, do that now, and make sure that the e-mail address you use there is the same one that you send to me.

 

OK now, who's in?

[Rick]

..... I buy some things local but wont throw my money away when I can save a bunch either.

.......

 

I agree, when the LFS can be reasonably competitive (The price once shippping is taken into account doesn't always have to match but it should come close) and has the product I will always buy local from any LFS that has treated me right in the past. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me though to spend $150 for something I can get online for $100 and I can't afford to be frivolous with my money that way anyway.

 

 

Depending upon when the group buy occurs I may be in. I need to look at what they have and see what I may need first.

[reef165]

Has anyone asked a lfs if they would be willing to do a group buy thing? you may not be able to save 33% but most of the online stores do have a storefront just like our store fronts have online stores so I beleave that the question should be asked if a local store would/could do a group buy? and If you dont spend the little more here localy will that store that has been there for you still be there in a month or two or three to be there for you again? And what if the thing you buy stops working or breaks, how long and what kind of hassel is the online store going to take/give to replace or fix what you have gotten? I know that most stores around here will replace the goods they sell on the spot and deal with the vender to get the broken one replaced. How much is that worth? Priceless if ya ask me!!

[undrtkr_00]

Ive got an idea,,, I know the club still hasnt caught onto this yet,, and I feel I can say this because I will no longer own my own store in 5 weeks...

 

But how about supporting sponsors instead?

 

I have had countless people come in and say "Im so sad your leaving", yet they want to do a group buy and bypass the retailers in the area. (not specifically this thread, just the nature of this club in general)

 

If you want the remaining stores to stick around, why dont you spend your money there instead of online?

 

I know I know,, you only have so much money. Well how much do you think that bucket of salt, or that $5 frag will cost when you have to pay shipping? Or when you have a pump burn up and you are desperate!? Are you going to pay overnight shipping or call the LFS for help?

 

SUPPORT LOCAL STORES! IF the club supports them, they will support you.

 

This may seem unfair, or "angry", we all have different opinions and different points of view, really my situation has just put me in a position where I can speak my mind.

 

I thank all of you that have supported me and other local business, without you, I wouldnt have wanted to stay in the business as long as I did. I really enjoyed my time owning Waves, but I must say, PNWMAS did me more harm than good in my time as owner of the LFS. Threads like this are case in point.

 

 

I read your post yesterday morning, but wanted to chew on it a while before responding. I thought about simply sending an e-mail or PM, but because you made your post in this thread (publicly), I thought it was most appropriate to respond here. Hopefully we can keep this discussion in an even keel. I know emotions, sarcasm, etc do not always come across in type. For the record, what I have to say below is meant with all sincerity, respect, and civility. Honestly. I hope we can have a dialogue like that here.

 

First off, I realize that you are approaching the termination (through sale or closure) of your business, which has been your passion and “obsession” (as the logo reads) for the past few years, and that must be very, very hard. I’m sorry for that, and I honestly wish that you’d been successful enough to keep it going.

 

I feel frustrated by your response, in part, because in the short time I’ve been reefkeeping (2.5 years), I feel like I have gone out of the way to support your shop in particular. The vast majority of my reef dollars have gone to LFS, and of that portion, the majority has gone to Waves. This has been intentional. And I can’t speak for everyone, but the people I have gotten to know in this club spend most of their reef dollars locally.

 

Many of my purchases have happened when Jordan was there and you were not so I don’t expect that you’d remember, but since I first started my tank, here are some of the items I have purchased from Waves:

• Ballasts

• Bulbs

• Return pump

• Powerheads

• Refractometer

• Ph meter

• Numerous test kits

• Fish and coral food (flake, frozen, pods, etc)

• Various supplements

• Aragonite sand

• Frag racks and disks

• Numerous fish

• Numerous corals – both frags and colonies

 

I usually come in at least once a month, shortly after payday to see what is new and to pick up routine items. My total spending at your shop is in the thousands. Most of the time I don’t even ask for the PNWMAS discount that you offer. For many of the items I could have bought them cheaper somewhere else, but I chose not to.

 

However, I have more recently opted to buy some of my supplements from BRS because I feel crazy not to. With the rising demands of my tank, if I bought all my supplements at your store, I would not have any money left for livestock purchases! (an exaggeration, but not by much) By example, the price you charge for mag flake is much higher than what I can get it for at BRS – and that’s before the group discount! I have asked about prices for higher quantities (don’t remember who I spoke to there about it), but the price break Waves offered was not that great. I go through a ton of this stuff. I don’t dose two part, but I believe you only have it in small, prepackaged containers, and I know it isn’t cheap. That’s simply not a viable system for folks who are dosing daily (mag, kalk, two part, etc). Don’t get me wrong. I don’t expect you to stock every single thing that every person needs for a great price. On the contrary, I expect you to stock only the things that you can be reasonably competitive with and keep the inventory moving, and I expect to go elsewhere for a portion of my shopping.

 

Related to that, I don’t think it’s fair, or realistic, of you to expect everyone to spend 100% of their reefing $ locally. The fact is that LFS do enjoy a great deal of support in our area. Reefkeepers from other areas regularly comment on the number and quality of stores in our region, and especially in the Portland area. This would not be the case if there were not a lot of people spending a lot of dollars locally. Additionally, in the (short) 2.5 years that I have been in the hobby, I know of several new saltwater/reef businesses have started up just in the Portland area. Unless the number of hobbyists grows substantially to support all of these new businesses, somebody is going to have to close their doors. Even with the recent closures, I believe (though I could be mistaken) that the total number is substantially higher than it was when I got started. Online retailing has been common for some years now, yet a very substantial number of local brick-and-mortar reef stores have managed to find their niche in the marketplace and keep their doors open. I don’t think we’re suddenly going to find ourselves without local stores, which seems to be the picture you are painting.

 

And speaking of online retailing, I’m not sure I follow whether you expect us to support all of the club sponsors or only LFS. You refer to both in your post, but PNWMAS has a number of sponsors that are not local (check out the advertising banners near the top of the page). Do you expect the club to decline sponsorship from businesses that are not locally based, or from businesses that are based locally but who regularly ship product to other regions through internet sales, etc?

 

How about your own practices? If you expect the hobbyists to only support LFS and not online retailers, are you going to insist that SLS only sell through brick-and-mortar stores when you start your new job? I know because you told me that you bought the lumber and sheeting for your shop remodel directly from a wholesaler. You needed a bunch of stuff in one order, and it was a great deal for you. Should I, as a wood products guy, be upset with you for cutting out the local retailer because you had an opportunity to save a serious chunk of cash? I don’t think so.

 

Finally, I find it very, very hard to believe that PNWMAS did your business more harm than good. I have seen people, through this forum, refer business to Waves many, many, many times. I have done it myself more than a few times. I would not have even known that your shop existed if it were not for this club, and you are just a couple of miles from my office. More indirectly, the experienced hobbyists here are continually advising new reefers to buy quality testing equipment that newbies are generally reluctant to spend their money on (refractometers, quality test kits, etc). A lot of that advice turns up as business for LFS. And beyond that, there have been a lot of people who, without the support, advice, and encouragement they received through this forum, would have given up the hobby, discouraged by their struggles. For every one that stays in the hobby, even for a few extra months, they remain consumers and bring at least some portion of their $ to the LFS. And besides, if you really feel that the club does more harm than good, why have you continued to be a sponsor?

 

OK. That’s it for me. For what it’s worth, I don’t feel bad about spending a portion of my $ with online retailers, sponsors or otherwise. Local stores do have value for customers and will continue to have a place in the market, and I will continue to go out of my way to support them. I have and will continue to make purchases with club sponsors that I would not have if they were not sponsors, but I don’t think that means I have to be completely exclusive. I just don’t think that’s a reasonable demand. I hope other folks don’t get guilt-tripped into taking on an unreasonable burden.

 

Again, I’m not angry, and I hope that the above comes across the way it is intended – with sincerity, respect, and civility. I’d welcome anyone else’s thoughts on the matter. And Joel, I truly wish you the very best in your next venture.

[undrtkr_00]

I am thinking I want some magnesium. How much is my share and what would be my cut of the loot? Everyplace I have talked to has wanted like 30 bucks for a good amount of product. I buy some things local but wont throw my money away when I can save a bunch either.

 

Jay

 

Jay,

 

You can order the quantity you want directly from the site. They offer 1 gallon, 5 gallon, and larger quantities of mag flake. The group buy price is the low end of the price range shown.

[undrtkr_00]

I don't know about the permanent discount...

 

After you first asked me if I was interested, I logged in and set up an order for a bucket of calcium chloride for the 2-part to see what the "discount" was. It came back as the most expensive price. :( I am not impressed with the "permanent discount"

 

When the group buy was in effect, I was getting the best price. I was impressed with the price at that time.

 

dsoz

 

Dennis,

 

So you're saying that, although you were a part of the previous group buy, you aren't currently (today) experiencing a discount. I am in the same boat. I honestly don't remember if the "permanent" discount (which, to avoid confusion, is much smaller than the 1 week group buy discount) was a part of the terms of the previous group buy, or if that is a part of the new, revised terms. If it was supposed to be a part of the previous terms, you may want to contact them about it.

[undrtkr_00]

I'd be interested if I knew what the % discount was. Last time (?) I think it seemed like free shipping on some heavy stuff. BTW aren't we still " a group buy group from the one Bob organized?

 

The discount is different for each item. It is not a straight percentage, etc. By looking at the item you are interested in on the web page, you can see a price range. $x.xx - $x.xx. The low number is what you would get with the group buy, while the high number is what you would pay with no discount at all.

 

Also, there is a shipping charge, so don't forget to add that in. I don't think the discount impacts it at all.

[finch6013]

friggin sweet! two part might not cost me an arm and a leg!

[Byrd]

PM Sent.

Thanks for organizing it!

[dsoz]

Dennis,

 

So you're saying that, although you were a part of the previous group buy, you aren't currently (today) experiencing a discount. I am in the same boat. I honestly don't remember if the "permanent" discount (which, to avoid confusion, is much smaller than the 1 week group buy discount) was a part of the terms of the previous group buy, or if that is a part of the new, revised terms. If it was supposed to be a part of the previous terms, you may want to contact them about it.

 

It was part of the terms. It really does not affect me right at the moment because I have about half of my supply still. Since I have reduced the Euphyllia in my system, the demand has decreased so what I have left will last a good deal longer. I probably have a good 4-6 months left with what I have. There is bound to be another group buy by then.

 

dsoz

[WAVES]

IM going to pull a bob fenner and respond inside your post in a different color:

 

 

I read your post yesterday morning, but wanted to chew on it a while before responding. I thought about simply sending an e-mail or PM, but because you made your post in this thread (publicly), I thought it was most appropriate to respond here. Hopefully we can keep this discussion in an even keel. I know emotions, sarcasm, etc do not always come across in type. For the record, what I have to say below is meant with all sincerity, respect, and civility. Honestly. I hope we can have a dialogue like that here.

 

 

First off, I realize that you are approaching the termination (through sale or closure) of your business, which has been your passion and “obsession” (as the logo reads) for the past few years, and that must be very, very hard. I’m sorry for that, and I honestly wish that you’d been successful enough to keep it going.

Actually its going to be very easy! Its been a fun ride but Im very ready for a new gig

 

I feel frustrated by your response, in part, because in the short time I’ve been reefkeeping (2.5 years), I feel like I have gone out of the way to support your shop in particular. The vast majority of my reef dollars have gone to LFS, and of that portion, the majority has gone to Waves. This has been intentional. And I can’t speak for everyone, but the people I have gotten to know in this club spend most of their reef dollars locally.

You have been a very good customer and I know you spend money with me that you could buy online, the thread was not directed specifically at you and I dont want it to feel that way. Rather to the entire board

 

Many of my purchases have happened when Jordan was there and you were not so I don’t expect that you’d remember, but since I first started my tank, here are some of the items I have purchased from Waves:

• Ballasts

• Bulbs

• Return pump

• Powerheads

• Refractometer

• Ph meter

• Numerous test kits

• Fish and coral food (flake, frozen, pods, etc)

• Various supplements

• Aragonite sand

• Frag racks and disks

• Numerous fish

• Numerous corals – both frags and colonies

 

I usually come in at least once a month, shortly after payday to see what is new and to pick up routine items. My total spending at your shop is in the thousands. Most of the time I don’t even ask for the PNWMAS discount that you offer. For many of the items I could have bought them cheaper somewhere else, but I chose not to.

 

However, I have more recently opted to buy some of my supplements from BRS because I feel crazy not to. With the rising demands of my tank, if I bought all my supplements at your store, I would not have any money left for livestock purchases! (an exaggeration, but not by much) By example, the price you charge for mag flake is much higher than what I can get it for at BRS – and that’s before the group discount! I have asked about prices for higher quantities (don’t remember who I spoke to there about it), but the price break Waves offered was not that great. I go through a ton of this stuff. I don’t dose two part, but I believe you only have it in small, prepackaged containers, and I know it isn’t cheap. That’s simply not a viable system for folks who are dosing daily (mag, kalk, two part, etc). Don’t get me wrong. I don’t expect you to stock every single thing that every person needs for a great price. On the contrary, I expect you to stock only the things that you can be reasonably competitive with and keep the inventory moving, and I expect to go elsewhere for a portion of my shopping.

I realize my mag flake for instance is more expensive on the shelf vs BRS, mostly because I bought stickers, manually fill each container, weight it to be sure its got enough etc. and yes if someone wants 3 pounds or something, its not going to be the same as someone who wants a 50 pound sack.

 

 

Related to that, I don’t think it’s fair, or realistic, of you to expect everyone to spend 100% of their reefing $ locally. The fact is that LFS do enjoy a great deal of support in our area. Reefkeepers from other areas regularly comment on the number and quality of stores in our region, and especially in the Portland area. This would not be the case if there were not a lot of people spending a lot of dollars locally. Additionally, in the (short) 2.5 years that I have been in the hobby, I know of several new saltwater/reef businesses have started up just in the Portland area. Unless the number of hobbyists grows substantially to support all of these new businesses, somebody is going to have to close their doors. Even with the recent closures, I believe (though I could be mistaken) that the total number is substantially higher than it was when I got started. Online retailing has been common for some years now, yet a very substantial number of local brick-and-mortar reef stores have managed to find their niche in the marketplace and keep their doors open. I don’t think we’re suddenly going to find ourselves without local stores, which seems to be the picture you are painting.

yes i agree there are lots of new stores, and I dont think there is any way for them all to survive, there simply isnt enough business to go around.

 

And speaking of online retailing, I’m not sure I follow whether you expect us to support all of the club sponsors or only LFS. You refer to both in your post, but PNWMAS has a number of sponsors that are not local (check out the advertising banners near the top of the page). Do you expect the club to decline sponsorship from businesses that are not locally based, or from businesses that are based locally but who regularly ship product to other regions through internet sales, etc?

of course not, my point is simply to support the business that support your hobby. If you get help with chemistry, free water testing, and general aquarium help and dialog with a sponsor then why not buy from them?

 

How about your own practices? If you expect the hobbyists to only support LFS and not online retailers, are you going to insist that SLS only sell through brick-and-mortar stores when you start your new job? I know because you told me that you bought the lumber and sheeting for your shop remodel directly from a wholesaler. You needed a bunch of stuff in one order, and it was a great deal for you. Should I, as a wood products guy, be upset with you for cutting out the local retailer because you had an opportunity to save a serious chunk of cash? I don’t think so.

This has NOTHING to do with sunlight supply, and in no way should any of my comments reflect on the company in anyway. With that said, they manufacture and distribute, we are talking about the channel going from the bottom up, not from the top down. (in the sense of manufacture to distributor to retailer to consumer) My whole point again is to support the companies that support you, who ever that is. So I wouldnt expect a manufacture to determine who to sell to in this fashion.

 

I bought my lumber from my customer, he supports me, I support him.

 

Finally, I find it very, very hard to believe that PNWMAS did your business more harm than good. I have seen people, through this forum, refer business to Waves many, many, many times. I have done it myself more than a few times. I would not have even known that your shop existed if it were not for this club, and you are just a couple of miles from my office. More indirectly, the experienced hobbyists here are continually advising new reefers to buy quality testing equipment that newbies are generally reluctant to spend their money on (refractometers, quality test kits, etc). A lot of that advice turns up as business for LFS. And beyond that, there have been a lot of people who, without the support, advice, and encouragement they received through this forum, would have given up the hobby, discouraged by their struggles. For every one that stays in the hobby, even for a few extra months, they remain consumers and bring at least some portion of their $ to the LFS. And besides, if you really feel that the club does more harm than good, why have you continued to be a sponsor?

90% of my business i would guess is non club members, or at least they are possibly club members that dont post much if any. Ever wonder why I dont do club meetings at Waves any more? its because in the past club members dont spend any money, yet force my non club member customers out the door at the time of the meeting. In short, Im better off having 1-2 non club member in the store, than the whole club meeting as (simply historically speaking) I will do more business. Historically speaking, it costs me more in soda than I make in profits from the meeting( not to mention loss of sales from non club members that turned around and left) Thats not to say there arent some club members that have been VERY supportive of the store, like yourself, pledosophy, Rugbyfish etc. Im sure there are more but those are the ones that come to mind immediately. Im sure others are supporting other stores too,,

It all comes back to my main point, support the stores that support you.

 

 

OK. That’s it for me. For what it’s worth, I don’t feel bad about spending a portion of my $ with online retailers, sponsors or otherwise. Local stores do have value for customers and will continue to have a place in the market, and I will continue to go out of my way to support them. I have and will continue to make purchases with club sponsors that I would not have if they were not sponsors, but I don’t think that means I have to be completely exclusive. I just don’t think that’s a reasonable demand. I hope other folks don’t get guilt-tripped into taking on an unreasonable burden.

 

Again, I’m not angry, and I hope that the above comes across the way it is intended – with sincerity, respect, and civility. I’d welcome anyone else’s thoughts on the matter. And Joel, I truly wish you the very best in your next venture.

thank you, again in no way was I specifically directing my comments to you.

 

what has been really frustrating to the point of being funny, is I get countless people coming in an telling me how sad they are Im leaving the business, but many of them come in and get free water testing, ask tons of questions, only to turn around and tell me what a smoking deal they got on ebay, or where ever. People just cant seem to put 2 and 2 together. Although the bulk of the reason Im leaving is not financial, if I was making a decent living at this, I would put up with the downside. (like working weekends, my slowly rotting away hands from the saltwater, stress etc.)