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ChrisQ

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Posted (edited)

I have about 16 new grey hairs now, after spending well more then 60+ hours straight with an occasional cat nap here and there. Truck is a 94 Toyota 4x4 3.0 V6 3VZE  (No spark)

tenor.gif?itemid=5865228

 

 

 

 

I'm about to give up and push it over a VERY large hill.

I seem to have a short and/or a grounding problem. What kind? I have no clue.

I came into this completely ignorant to working on cars and now know more about Toyota's then i ever wanted to. 

Problem arose where it kept blowing the E.F.I fuse upon cranking it. It didn't get driven much at all for long periods. It also had a  parasitic draw that i don't know if i sorted or not but it seems like i have.

Have made some major progress and got it to stop blowing the efi.

Major problem is the things that need testing, coil, ignition and don't fully understand the tools used, multimeter, test light etc. I have pretty much used up google/youtube keywords and read and watched everything. 

 

If anyone of you car guy's in my area have something like one of these and can tell me where my shorts/problems are i'd happily pay you.  :drinking: 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072PL2WZP/ref=cm_sw_r_oth_api_MoQjBbC0095G7

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ChrisQ

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Crankshaft position sensor?  

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, cjmdh said:

Crankshaft position sensor?  

I've seen this spoke of before, i'll look more in to it. Thanks.

A good buddy of mine bought that tool i linked and it arrived today sitting on the porch and i'm on my way to pick it up. Now to learn to use it. :censored: 

Edited by ChrisQ

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5 hours ago, cjmdh said:

Crankshaft position sensor?  

In my experience, this will prevent you from getting ignition due to the inability of the car to sync timing so if everything else checks out it is a potential culprit.  Haven't had one blow fuses before however.

Chris - what exactly is the behavior now?  Sounds like you think you fixed the short on cranking (blown EFI fuse) and the drain on ign off but it isn't clear what it's current problem is.  Is the fuel pump tied to the EFI circuit?  I would be suspicious of that if so. If you haven't already, test for spark and fuel pressure at the rail if you can (assuming it's cranking but not turning over) then go from there.  Sorry if you have already tried this... couldn't tell from your post.

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A buddy of mine has a Lincoln MKVIII that would periodically die and not start. Swore up and down that it was the fuel pump. So I offered to help him, so we drop the exhaust and the fuel tank put new pump in and put it all back together and it still doesn’t work. Did a little troubleshooting of my own and found it didn’t have spark and the old fuel pump was just fine. To save him some cash we dropped the tank again and put old pump back in. Ran down to the parts store and for $26 a new crankshaft position sensor was procured and after it was installed the Lincoln fired right up. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, albertareef said:

In my experience, this will prevent you from getting ignition due to the inability of the car to sync timing so if everything else checks out it is a potential culprit.  Haven't had one blow fuses before however.

Chris - what exactly is the behavior now?  Sounds like you think you fixed the short on cranking (blown EFI fuse) and the drain on ign off but it isn't clear what it's current problem is.  Is the fuel pump tied to the EFI circuit?  I would be suspicious of that if so. If you haven't already, test for spark and fuel pressure at the rail if you can (assuming it's cranking but not turning over) then go from there.  Sorry if you have already tried this... couldn't tell from your post.

Yep, sorry left a lot out.

 

Just turns over. All the lights, tail lights, brake lights, turn signals, door locks, AC, heater, wipers etc. work fine, haven't tested the windows yet though. Yes, the efi fuse runs the ECU along with the efi relays which runs the fuel delivery system . The efi relays run a lot of things which i also replaced along with the distributor, cap, rotor and plugs. I opened up the banjo bolt i'm guessing the fuel is delivered to and plenty came out. 

I think one of the issues with blowing the efi was a bad chassis ground, if i left it unconnected the efi fuse did NOT blow at cranking but with it connected it blew it instantly upon cranking it over. So i'm going overkill with repairing all my grounds, like this 4 gauge chassis ground. Going to be replacing the other batt. terminal and using 1/0 cable to my starter and 1/0 - 2/0 for my engine grounds. The new chassis ground seemed to stop the fuse from blowing.

I heard an analogy the other day that got me thinking, we know electricity follows the path of least resistance so imagine your house is on fire and the Fire Department shows up and uses your garden hoses to put out the fire instead of their's :tongue:

IMG_20180615_113334214.jpg

 

This is what i'm going for if i ever get spark back and any shorts addressed

 

batfinished.jpg

 

Out of the frying pan and into the fire as i fix one thing 7-8 more unexplainable things happen like the fact that i can take a test light (key on) and without a efi fuse in the slot, i can test it and get full 12v power (confirmed with multimeter) but as soon as i put a perfectly good fuse in with continuity already checked the test light won't light and multimeter reads 0.00v when testing off the top of the fuse poles, multiple fuses. 

Fixed all my engine grounds resistance's to the desired 0.8 or so only for them to be back at 7-8 an hour later. 

 

So much much more.

Edited by ChrisQ

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Zoolander said:

Me or @Taylorhardy1 could probably be of assistance. 

That would be awesome and much appreciated, i'm in way over my head at this point. I mostly need help knowing what to test and how to test it.

Thank you! 

 

 

 

Edited by ChrisQ

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Posted (edited)

I also disconnected the negative and with my test light i clipped into the neg. terminal and stuck the painful needle of death (stabbed myself so many times now) into the neg. post and it lit up signaling i have a short somewhere. So i started pulling fuses until the light went out and when i got to the dome fuse the light went out. Next was the dreaded efi, pulled it and the light stayed on. It was very much a relief but now i had a unexpected dome/open door buzzer problem and may also be why the efi does not blow anymore  

Can't really remember how/why the light came back on again before i pulled the efi fuse.

 

The check engine light has not been coming on during initial key turn either.

 

Edited by ChrisQ

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Are you getting power at the distributor? Have you checked for continuity in the fuse location? That fuse links the electrical circuit. So if the circuit is clean and complete you will have continuity, if there's grounds or other components missing then it will not have continuity. This is how myself, and many other mechanics verify and find wiring issues without spending a bunch of unnecessary time looking at what it could be, vs what it actually is. The easiest way to find the number you'll be looking for is turn your multimeter on to the continuity setting, look at the numbers it gives you when the circuit is open and make a mental note of them, then press the prongs together and that's perfect continuity, and that's the number you'll be shooting for. Most multimeters will just spew out random numbers when the circuit is open, then drop and hold steady close to 0 if there's continuity. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Taylorhardy1 said:

Are you getting power at the distributor? Have you checked for continuity in the fuse location? That fuse links the electrical circuit. So if the circuit is clean and complete you will have continuity, if there's grounds or other components missing then it will not have continuity. This is how myself, and many other mechanics verify and find wiring issues without spending a bunch of unnecessary time looking at what it could be, vs what it actually is. The easiest way to find the number you'll be looking for is turn your multimeter on to the continuity setting, look at the numbers it gives you when the circuit is open and make a mental note of them, then press the prongs together and that's perfect continuity, and that's the number you'll be shooting for. Most multimeters will just spew out random numbers when the circuit is open, then drop and hold steady close to 0 if there's continuity. 

I have no idea if the distributors getting power but out of desperation I've even held the plug in my hand not caring. Kind of an inside joke from when i was a kid and the childhood friend that was helping me at the time kicked over my KX80 super hard when i had the plug in my hand.

(Yeah, he got a kick out of that and so did i lets say)

I have checked all fuses and replaced relays, fixed all my ground resistance problems, adding in new grounds that were missing or not good enough and have been checking continuity first thing for even perfectly good looking fuses.

I have that tool that i linked above and it has a continuity setting which might be better than my $5.99 multimeter  I also ran some mock up test last night to figure out and test the trace function of that unit and it worked well, or good enough.

So far this has been the only definitive short I've found so far. Traced it back the antenna connector of a unused CB.

IMG_20180613_154500164.jpg

These are what really concern me and my buddy suggested that i not start cutting the alarm out with a risk of cutting something unrelated with my inexperience. We def. agreed but i want that alarm out thinking it's contributing to the problem.

 

 

IMG_20180616_164306011.jpg

 

IMG_20180616_163837508.jpg

What fuse and where is this fuse for the distributor? Are you referring to the IGN. fuse driver side kick?

 

I'm a one man army so it's hard for me to test for spark and cranking tests with meters and have been trying to avoid setting up a push button remote ignition off my starter pole, truck has a 4'' suspension lift which makes somethings easier but it would still be a pain in the butt.

 

Thanks for the reply Taylor! Along with anyone else for that matter.

IMG_20180616_163846502.jpg

Edited by ChrisQ

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So as an old stereo guy. There used to be an ignition interupt so that car could not be stolen  what brand is that alarm, how old is it?  Have you found the brain to the alarm or is it factory installed?  I would find the brain and start removing wire by wire. Likely they used splice caps and you will just need to tape wires where things were spliced into as they usually did not cut wire and solder for speed purposes. They were usually blue. I will try to find a pic 

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Your ignition is regulated by the ignition fuse/relay. You will rip your hair out trying to chase issues without finding your baseline. To test continuity you simply pull the fuse/ relay, and place the prongs from the multimeter into the ports the fuse slides into. No outside power needed because all your testing is if it's a complete electrical circuit or not, not for actual power. When you turn the key on, your ignition should be 12v all the time. The first thing I would do is test for power at the distributor. If you turn the key, and press the prongs to the prongs on the connector and you should see 12v. If you see 12v getting to the distributer it's not a wiring problem, but a mechanical issue. That's when you start chasing sensors, and other things. The alarm system could have an immobilizer that wouldn't allow spark, but I wouldn't think it'd be too likely. Typically they shut down the fuel system because raw fuel in cylinders can create numerous issues. First things first, check for power to the distributor, if you have power no need to test continuity and you can rule out a wiring problem within that system. You'll want a multimeter for this because numbers are important. You can test the continuity with the test light, but I prefer a multimeter for everything electrical.

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3 minutes ago, Taylorhardy1 said:

Your ignition is regulated by the ignition fuse/relay. You will rip your hair out trying to chase issues without finding your baseline. To test continuity you simply pull the fuse/ relay, and place the prongs from the multimeter into the ports the fuse slides into. No outside power needed because all your testing is if it's a complete electrical circuit or not, not for actual power. When you turn the key on, your ignition should be 12v all the time. The first thing I would do is test for power at the distributor. If you turn the key, and press the prongs to the prongs on the connector and you should see 12v. If you see 12v getting to the distributer it's not a wiring problem, but a mechanical issue. That's when you start chasing sensors, and other things. The alarm system could have an immobilizer that wouldn't allow spark, but I wouldn't think it'd be too likely. Typically they shut down the fuel system because raw fuel in cylinders can create numerous issues. First things first, check for power to the distributor, if you have power no need to test continuity and you can rule out a wiring problem within that system. You'll want a multimeter for this because numbers are important. You can test the continuity with the test light, but I prefer a multimeter for everything electrical.

Good stuff Taylor.

Just a follow up on the CPS topic that was discussed earlier in the thread (and can cause the symptoms you have described - been there done that), it appears that it is incorporated into the distributor on the "94 V6 per this link https://www.justanswer.com/toyota/4kfs9-crank-sensor-located-1994-toyota-4runner-v6.html which makes it not so painless as a "just try it" option and would support a more systematic approach per Taylor's suggestion.

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58 minutes ago, River City Corals said:

So as an old stereo guy. There used to be an ignition interupt so that car could not be stolen  what brand is that alarm, how old is it?  Have you found the brain to the alarm or is it factory installed?  I would find the brain and start removing wire by wire. Likely they used splice caps and you will just need to tape wires where things were spliced into as they usually did not cut wire and solder for speed purposes. They were usually blue. I will try to find a pic 

Funny story, yes i have found the "brains, i think" with splicing. The funny thing is there is/was a line running from the batt. with an inline fuse and when i used the test light on it, it lit for a sec and blew the cig fuse, so i went and replaced the fuse and tried to replicate it and could not get it to light. Right when i was about give up instead of hearing a fuse pop i heard what i considered an arc in the dash somewhere loud enough i could hear it through the firewall, but the cig fuse remained intact.

This is how it was, yes i know, clean your engine!!!!!!

IMG_20180618_151203788.jpg

And as we speak....

IMG_20180618_151114464.jpg

Leading into the drivers kick

IMG_20180618_151518853.jpg

What i have found of the alarm so far.

IMG_20180618_151315810.jpg

IMG_20180618_151220153.jpg

Where i blew the cig fuse.

IMG_20180618_151756116_HDR.jpg

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Taylorhardy1 said:

The first thing I would do is test for power at the distributor. If you turn the key, and press the prongs to the prongs on the connector and you should see 12v.

Where exactly is this? I'm really automotive illiterate.

but im good with google ! :thumbs:

Edited by ChrisQ

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37 minutes ago, albertareef said:

Good stuff Taylor.

Just a follow up on the CPS topic that was discussed earlier in the thread (and can cause the symptoms you have described - been there done that), it appears that it is incorporated into the distributor on the "94 V6 per this link https://www.justanswer.com/toyota/4kfs9-crank-sensor-located-1994-toyota-4runner-v6.html which makes it not so painless as a "just try it" option and would support a more systematic approach per Taylor's suggestion.

That makes perfect sense, only the rotor and cap were replaced. Trying to source one now if the test turns out bad. Still figuring out what to probe, never done it before.

 

Thanks!

 

 

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Posted (edited)

0.00v on the distributor connector. 

And the Crankshaft position sensor is a part of the rotor itself and is not replaceable on it's own so it better not be that cause that's $200+ :teardrop:

Edited by ChrisQ

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Make sure your O2 sensor isn’t shorted out before you crawl further down the rabbit hole.

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16 hours ago, cjmdh said:

I found this with regards to testing the distributor. That is a chunk of change to drop just as a test.  Pick a part in Tualatin might be cheaper?

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f2/no-start-condition-ignition-coil-test-info-3vze-89-95-a-10543/

Thanks bud!

I think this thread is the only one i have not "fully" read yet but i have read most of it

 

15 hours ago, xmas_one said:

Make sure your O2 sensor isn’t shorted out before you crawl further down the rabbit hole.

Thanks also for the tip, was the first thing i did!

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Okay, quick breakdown and reasoning of nearly hurling wrenches across my yard. :censored: :nono: :laugh:

So, we already know i'm not getting any power to the distributor. I decided to finally go and test my ignition coil, i pulled the little power harness from the coil and read 12v with my multimeter. That's good news!

Grounded test light and cranked it and got nothing, rushed out to the Aloha Autozone and bought a new ignition coil super excited, things are looking good. Get home and install it and STILL nothing to the distributor. 

 Capturenopower1.png

So i decided to switch gears and mini-splice into each NE,G1,G2 and G with a alligator clip and start my trace. Using this.

 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072PL2WZP/ref=cm_sw_r_oth_api_MoQjBbC0095G7

 

Traced all 4 to nearly the same spot (within 2'') at the end of the harness at E4

Capturecablebreak.PNG

 

Sadly, sadly isn't really the word for it but as we can see here where each of them need to end up.

Captureshort.PNG

 

The ECM now needs to come out and i need to at least test each of those wires for continuity at the ECM harness before i start ripping up my harness trusting a cheap tool. Cheap but it works.

 

Quite discouraging, i can build you a racing ATV/Motocross bike but can't fix my own truck! :laugh:

The irony.

 

 

Thank you guys so much for your help so far guys, you've all been amazing as always!

I'll make it up to guys one day for sure. :drinking:

Maybe instead of getting all greasy i can trade my multimeter in for my zoa fraggin kit today.

 

 

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Hey Chris,

While you had that connector off of the distributor did you happen to test the resistances of G1, G2 and NE as described?  Just curious because, if I am reading this correctly, those inputs/outputs carry the timing (CPS function) signature that the ECM uses to manage output to the coil so would be good to verify regardless of the continuity issue you are chasing.  

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3 minutes ago, albertareef said:

Hey Chris,

While you had that connector off of the distributor did you happen to test the resistances of G1, G2 and NE as described?  Just curious because, if I am reading this correctly, those inputs/outputs carry the timing (CPS function) signature that the ECM uses to manage output to the coil so would be good to verify regardless of the continuity issue you are chasing.  

Hi Sean, 

No, not at the time but plan to the first time i mess with the truck again, from my understanding if they are not within range there's not further point going forward until that faulty part is replaced.

Now i'm very curious myself and are about to get dirty. Should i even begin to trust my $5.99 multimeter for that or do you think it would suffice? 

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