More dissapointing news

[Michael7979]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/03/31/coral.death.ap/index.html

[rude944]

I think that one is the same article as the one posted on MSNBC. Whatever the case is, we may be the last generation to know the reefs. Dive now, before it is lost.

 

Wow, that's pretty messed up! I can't believe I wrote that!

[impur]

Yah, sad but true. One day we may be called on to replenish the oceans with aquacultured corals!

[rude944]

Be sure to setup your backup generators. Future generations are calling on us (and the Wakiki aquarium).

[reefgeek84]

there was as huge thread on reefcentral on this... I do not think it is our fault at all... The corals have survived more then this in the hundreds of years they have been in the ocean. Also, global warming is not something that us as humans are doing to the earth, its more about the earth's cycle and the trend it is on right now... We are actually heading into an ice age. I think we should be more concerned about humans destroying habitat for us to live.... That is just my 2 cents though. I have a feeling I will get some flame on this one

[impur]

(football) torch (gavel) threaten

 

LOL Well i'm not one to flame for your opinion, although i do feel we are contributing to global warming. I am fully on board with you that humans are destroying habitat for us to live. But who knows, as technology advances maybe things will turn around.

[reefgeek84]

(football) torch (gavel) threaten

 

LOL Well i'm not one to flame for your opinion, although i do feel we are contributing to global warming. I am fully on board with you that humans are destroying habitat for us to live. But who knows, as technology advances maybe things will turn around.

 

I just find it hard to believe that the coral reefs (or earth for that matter) have not gone through this in the hundreds of years that they have been around.

[impur]

Highly possible.

 

But i think the excessive CO2 unleashed from cars, factories, ect does have an added effect to the problem. Thats what i read anyway.

[SeanF]

I saw a really interesting program on PBS about the earths magnetic poles and how we are on the verge of a swap of magnetic north. So South will be North and North will be South. I believe that some of the things that are being blamed on pollution such as the hole in the ozone layer at the poles may be more likely related to the weakening of the earths magnetic field. Not many people carry compasses anymore but my truck has one built in and on the move out here I think I experienced a switch in the magnetic field. For some reason my compass was reading all wrong(no I wasn't lost). For some reason for a couple of hundred of miles of road that I know runs east/west I was going west but the compass was reading east. It has never happened again so I doubt it was a electrical problem.

 

The program had shown that by going deeper into older layers of rock they can tell that the magnetic poles have changed lots of times in the earths history. It was really amazing to me as I had never heard anything about that sort of thing before.

 

And just to relate it back to the topic of corals it is very similar in that there far more things that we don't know about corals or the earth than we know about them. I heard Eric Bornemann speak out in Oklahoma and he freely admitted that hobbyists are one of the greatest sources of discovery about corals. Coral research in the wild is really in its very early stages since Scuba gear was invented in the 1970's and hobbyists pay very close attention to their tanks for hours and hours at a time. It is hard to stay under water in the Ocean for as long as is need to get a great deal of information about corals but in the aquarium you can observe corals pretty much all the time.

 

Then he told a story about a long day of diving out in the South Pacific and how he got back up to the boat exhausted and was laying on the deck of the boat and the thought occured to him that his job was to go diving in the South Pacific something that most people pay lots of money to go do and he was getting paid for it. He told it a lot better but that was the jist of the whole thing.

[impur]

Interesting stuff! There is definately a lot of things we have just scratched the surface of.

 

Did you read about the guy in Isreal who is inventing a way to dive without the use of airtanks? Like in StarWars I when they swim underwater with that little thing in their mouths. Pretty amazing stuff.

[rude944]

Man, I love Israeli's. Half the family is from the holy land, and I spent some time there, and they certainly are an innovative bunch. As a certified diver, this should be very cool. Bond used a similar gadget in Die Another Day (on TBS last Wednesday). If that wasn't fantasy I'd be so into getting one! I remember seeing Back to the future 2 with the hoverboards and was really pissed when I discovered they didn't exist!

 

I have to agree with Miles, however, global warming is contributing to the destruction to the climate. It's certainly from greenhouse gasses and the worlds reefs are not taking to kindly to it.

[H20cooled]

Wow, that would be very cool to dive without tanks. Now if we could just figure out how to grow gills like Water World that would really be cool.

 

As for the reefs and global warming. I think it is really sad when these amazing natural reefs die off, but as for a cause; unless some can test the corals and figure out exactly what happened to them we will never know. As we all know there are so many factors to keeping them alive and thriving, so saying it was a rise in temps or something else that caused it is hard to say. Also how do we know that this isn't actually part of a natural process that happens on earth? We haven't been here long enough to know.

 

As for global warming and cars and pollution make it happen; I personally believe that it is something made up be the tree huggers and SUV haters to make us all feel bad. I've read a lot of different studies and there is NO scientific proof that it is happening at all. Every argument that I have heard for it has been filled with a bunch of emotion and no facts at all. Every arguement that I have read stating that there is no facts to support global warming were posted be actual scientist.

 

There are so many wack jobs out there today trying to say how we are all destroying the planet. I heard on the radio on Friday there is a professor some where that thinks a large chunk of the populating (like 80%) should be killed with the Ebola virus because he thinks we are running the planet, the sad thing is a bunch of idiots actually agree with him. I think if he really believes that strongly in it he needs to be the first one to take the ebola virus; I bet we see an improvement after that.

 

Now I'm not saying we should all just go around doing nothing and creating waste, pollution, etc... I just think we don't need to be extreme about this. Personally I try to do everything that I can not to add to problems, do I think we all need to drive around in an Escalade NO. Also I would love to see us get off of oil dependency but not so much for the environment as to get rid of our dependency on middle eastern countries.

 

But that's just my opinion...

 

Here is an interesting post on RC about the same stuff.... LINK

[H20cooled]

Sorry, one more thing. I cut this quote from a post on RC, the person is a scientist and I think he makes some really good points.

 

About global warming, I'm a scientist by profession. I am with holding my opinion until I have more answers. My opinion is a point of interest for me, not a religious zealotry. I have questions:

 

1. The rate of measurable CO2 in the atmosphere has risen at a steady linear rate since the industrial revolution, yet temperatures have not. If increased CO2 raised global temperatures then we should see a linear correlation.

2. The warmest year on record before last year was in the 1930's and some of the coldest was in the 1970's. Dispite steady increases in greenhouse emmisions. The current warming trends seem to indicate a cycle. Media claims that the frequency and strength of last years hurricanes might be from global warming was denied by those that study them. They said it was cyclical.

3. 90% of all the earths ice is in Antartica. Antartica has shown a reverse of 6000 year old warming trend and is growing by gigatons of ice a year.

3. Are we still coming out of the last ice age that lasted 100,000 years.

4. Animals can live easily in an environment with 10x the CO2, but even 2x the CO2 would cause plants to explode in growth. The plants would cool the earth through respiration, reduction of CO2, and shade reducing radiate heat. So isn't the earth self regulating?

5. Climatologist need there to be global warming and it must be bad to the point of crisis for them to get paid. No research grants are going to be given to them for an interesting phenomenon that really doesn't affect anyone. Possible extra hype. Consider the source argument.

6. Is Global warming real?

7. Is it bad?

8. Is man causing it?

9. Can man reverse it? If every provision of the Kyoto accords were followed for example, it would cost trillions and would only delay global warming by 4 years.

10. If so, would fixing it cause the destruction of economies which will cause more evironmental distruction than what your trying to fix. Keep in mind that poverty is the worst thing for the environment.

 

Keep in mind that global warming is a forecast of what might happen. Few without a grant to get say it is already happening. Laymen often walk outside and say "[language filter] it hot" and think global warming. But localized phenom doesn't count.

 

And last, since global warming is not happening at the rate forcasted and since areas show record cold along with record heat, the name has been changed to global climate change. If its so obvious why the spin?

[rude944]

I read his post on RC and it was really interesting, thanks for the link! I can't say I agree or disagree, and those are just his opinions/questions and there are no studies that back up his arguments (of his questions) in the body of the post. That said, I feel this way: How have we contributed positively to our earth? I think I am hard pressed to find ways that we are sustaining our world.

I do recycle, keep my car in a good state of tune, try to limit my consumption of finite resources, and otherwise try to do good. But the fact of the matter is that I use more then I produce, and the things that I use are resources that may not be reproducable. In effect, I have an affect on the world's environment, and while I try to limit it, I live in a society that values the destruction of our resources over the preservation of them. Any way that we cut this, we are living on borrowed time at our present rate of consumption.

To answer your question "Why the spin", I think I know why, and the answer is; Personal feelings of guilt.

 

(anyone care to comment?)

[spayne]

I do recycle' date=' keep my car in a good state of tune, try to limit my consumption of finite resources, and otherwise try to do good. But the fact of the matter is that I use more then I produce, and the things that I use are resources that may not be reproducable. In effect, I have an affect on the world's environment, and while I try to limit it, I live in a society that values the destruction of our resources over the preservation of them.[/quote']

I couldn't have said that better myself.

 

I believe both sides of the argument have merit, but I do side with the opinion preservation. Perhaps the green house effect is a load of bunk, however, the human race lessening their impact on the planet's resources is a step in the right direction. I, for one, would love to see far less dependency on global fossil fuels whether that be derived from alternative fuel sources or even a move towards utilizing mass transit (I'm so jealous of PDX and their bus/Max system!).

 

As was mentioned and as we all know full well, coral can be tempestuous at best. Sometimes they will take a nose dive for unknown reasons. Who knows what variables are affecting the wild reefs? Maybe it's a natural phenomena, maybe it's spurred on by mankind. We may never know the answer. We may just have to cross our fingers and hope for the best.

 

But I'm going to continue to try to do whatever I can to be a better tenant on this planet by doing my part. And hopefully it will make a difference! (fingers)

 

Great debate, everyone! Nice, friendly! Atta boys all around! (highfive)

 

Stacy

[H20cooled]

I agree completly that we all need to do are best not to create more waste and problems, if that means parking your car and taking the Max great. Maybe for others it just starting to recycle or compost rather then throughing it in the trash. Don't think for a minute that I'm suggesting we should just ignore the planet and see what happens. I just don't think that there are enough facts out there to prove that we are actually destroying our planet with cars and etc.

 

I would love to see us start framing more homes with concrete and less wood; concrete is getting cheaper and it is re-usable plus it lasts a LOT longer then wood. My dream home will be framed with only concrete and I hope to use very little wood; I love the trees and it always makes me sad to see a great forrest cut down. But they are doing much better these days about replanting them after logging.

 

I agree this is kind of fun, I was hoping that no one would be offended by my post, I debated for a while to post or not.

 

Later...

 

Rich

[spayne]

I agree this is kind of fun' date=' I was hoping that no one would be offended by my post, I debated for a while to post or not.[/quote']

No worries here, Rich! I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion! But then again, one would have to put forth quite a bit of effort to offend me! What fun would life be if we all didn't have different opinions anyhow? I thought you did very well discussing your side of the coin!

 

Stacy

[SeanF]

Ok while we are on revolutionary thought. Here are some things to think about in a Darwin like manner.

 

Are our efforts to save species actually a good or bad thing. If a species is not able to adapt to changes in it's environment should it be up to us to interfere. Species that man has never has known about more than likely go extinct everyday because of failure to adapt to there natural environment.

 

I once was very active in Species Survival for Lake Victorian Cichlids and have done quite a bit of research and put in some thought about this kind of question fairly extensively. One of the arguements that went on in the species survival was about reintroduction of captive bred species that have gone extinct in the wild. The thing is that once a fish has been kept in an aquarium it starts to adapt to it's new environment and therefore is no longer suitable for reintroduction.

 

To take this to the discussion at hand, would we not be creating weaker corals if we interfered in the natural course of what was happening. This die off is a case of survival of the fittest. The corals that are able to adapt and sustain themselves in the current natural environement are the ones that will populate the reef and the more delicate species will go by the wayside. Such is the way of nature. The planet is a natural system that can deal with gradual changes much the way our captive reef systems can adapt to gradual changes.

 

Ok now to get really controversial. Modern Medicine will be the downfall of the human race. Take a minute to think about this: Fertility drugs are helping people that cannot naturally concieve a child have a baby and in many cases a lot of babies. So these babies grow up to have babies and are more likely to need fertility drugs to have a child and so on and so forth. So the people that have a genetic problem are having more kids because of fertility drugs than the people that concieve naturally.

 

Our medicine is creating a weaker genetic strain of ourselves making us more dependent on medicine. We have to improve our medicine to keep us going.

 

Ok enough deep thought now it is time for beer and cartoons.

[Chief]

I'm all for the beer and cartoons.

 

Nature ( and the planet for that matter ) will take care of itself. If we become too bothersome ( by polluting, and eroding our natural resources ), nature will take it's course and eradicate us. IMO, the planet will survive anything we throw at it. Whether we survive the cleansing process is yet to be determined. I am not saying that we should continue with wild abandon. We should be responsible. I am all for saving the planet, but what we are really talking about is saving ourselves, and our future generations.

 

Jay

[spayne]

Are our efforts to save species actually a good or bad thing. If a species is not able to adapt to changes in it's environment should it be up to us to interfere... To take this to the discussion at hand' date=' would we not be creating weaker corals if we interfered in the natural course of what was happening. This die off is a case of survival of the fittest...Such is the way of nature...Modern Medicine will be the downfall of the human race...[/quote']

Nature will take care of itself. If we become too bothersome nature will take it's course and eradicate us. Whether we survive the cleansing process is yet to be determined.

Things are beginning to get very interesting! Good stuff!

 

I do agree that for the most part, we do need to let nature take its course. What do you do when a baby animal falls out of its nest? You leave it alone. I've had that pounded into my head since I was a kid... but it's hard advice to follow! I tend to swoop in and try to rescue the unfortunate animal (or human from time to time!) even though it isn't always what is best for the critter or individual. In reference to the wild reefs, I don't think there's anything we can do directly for them. The ocean is a pretty big tank and when you get right down to it, you can't tweak the water parameters much. Your theory is very interesting, survival of the fittest. It would be interesting to know if one particular species of coral is being targetted in this bleaching or if the entire mixed colonies are being decimated.

 

I tend to agree with you on medicine. I do think much of it is over-used. Such as antibiotics. I believe that there are facts out there attributing to stronger germs/bacterias/viruses from their adaption to our arsenal. Survival of the fittest! What you said about fertility drugs is interesting as well. I also wonder what the impact is of so many women using "family control medication" (trying to be very "G" rated here). Despite water purification, isn't it feasible that this still leaches into the water? Could this be part of the issue of "needing" fertility drugs? (crazy)

 

But even with the "bad", medicine has done many great things! I think there are pros and cons with anything and everything.

 

I'm not sure if nature will enact a cycle of cleansing when things progress to the cusp of "destruction". That could happen or conditions could deteriorate so radically that the world will be unable to sustain much of life on the planet. Then once the troublesome critters are erradicated the earth will clean itself up and start over! Just a thought! I really don't personally foresee a global cleansing (or any epic earth changes in 2012 you wacky Indian!). (fingers)

 

And we are getting so off topic here! We have a couple new threads we can start just from these past few posts!

 

Remember, kiddies! Recycle, renew, reuse! However the saying goes!

 

Stacy

[impur]

Things are beginning to get very interesting! Good stuff!

 

I do agree that for the most part, we do need to let nature take its course. What do you do when a baby animal falls out of its nest? You leave it alone. I've had that pounded into my head since I was a kid... but it's hard advice to follow! I tend to swoop in and try to rescue the unfortunate animal (or human from time to time!) even though it isn't always what is best for the critter or individual. In reference to the wild reefs, I don't think there's anything we can do directly for them. The ocean is a pretty big tank and when you get right down to it, you can't tweak the water parameters much. Your theory is very interesting, survival of the fittest. It would be interesting to know if one particular species of coral is being targetted in this bleaching or if the entire mixed colonies are being decimated.

 

 

But we are overlooking the fact that many of these reefs, such as the one in the Virgin Islands chain, are now dying because we are dumping our feces, trash, other pollutants, basically anything we don't want on the land into the water. I don't think this blackband disease was around until we began dumping millions of tons of our waste into their ecosystem. Does anyone really think that the cruise ships filled with 5000+ people for 12 days dock to drain that stuff? I highly doubt it, it goes right into the ocean.

[spayne]

Does anyone really think that the cruise ships filled with 5000+ people for 12 days dock to drain that stuff? I highly doubt it' date=' it goes right into the ocean.[/quote']

Very true! There's really nothing we can do directly for the reefs in my opinion, but what we can do is stop such practices as that. I am all about mankind being responsible tenants and not polluting up the place as much as possible. I think the world, and ocean for that matter, would be a better place if we weren't dumping our waste into it.

 

Stacy