Fun debate!

[YUP]

So I'm sitting here doing some yard work on this nice Oregon day with the sun shining on me:) and i was thinking about the suns intensity in Oregon compared to Hawaii and if u could not have lights and use natural sun. Obviously our lights are trying to mimic natural sunlight. If u matched the specific coral parameters, would the suns intensity here allow certain corals to grow?

 

 

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[badxgillen]

Consistant sun and temperatures, along with good water quality, will alolow corals to grow any where. The biggest problem is having regular lighting and that is why people use electronic lighting. The people who do have green houses with corals combat the obvious previously mentioned issues and many of them still use suplemental lighting just to get by, or grow the hardiest pest corals around.

 

short answer to your question is, Yes , the sun can grow corals.

 

oh, and what is the debate?

[YUP]

I agree, the suns intensity I would assume is stronger closer to the equator. Or, is it not? and obviously cloud cover here makes a diff. But, Like they always say, u can get sunburnt even with overcast sky's. Obviously it's hotter in the summer here, but down there it's always summer but in some tropical places as much if not more rain. U can't have rain without clouds

 

 

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[Mandinga]

There are in fact people in Oregon already growing in greenhouses. The SPS are brown for the most part, but growing yes.

 

Many people who grow in tropical climates have to shade their corals...so yes Oregon has enough sun, but not anything like...say...Bali. 

 

I threw around(and then finally threw out) an idea to convert my current greenhouse into a coral greenhouse...The temperature control factor is just not worth it...to me...especially considering I would still likely have to supplement lighting to get desired results...Brown corals with "potential" get old quick:)

[pledosophy]

I agree, the suns intensity I would assume is stronger closer to the equator. Or, is it not? and obviously cloud cover here makes a diff. But, Like they always say, u can get sunburnt even with overcast sky's. Obviously it's hotter in the summer here, but down there it's always summer but in some tropical places as much if not more rain. U can't have rain without clouds

 

 

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I know the tools used to measure light in photography have the exact same reading on the equator, and on the north and south pole for intensity of full sun. The same is true of "open shade".The intensity of open shade or an overcast day from the sun is many times greater then the output of our aquarium lights.Like I say though, that is based on photography light meters. How much of this is usable by corals could change with shade and altered spectrums. 

 

I know a guy who used a greenhouse in his back yard up in Pittsburgh and his corals grow extremely well for him. 

 

You might want to look into sun tubes if your interested in reading more about this. Some people have been using sun to light their tanks for years. Many still find the need to supplement actnic lighting.

 

JME

[JManrow]

If I were to attempt growing corals in a greenhouse, I would use some supplemental lighting.

 

6500kelvin = most growth, but also tend to be brown. This is closest to natural sunlight.

10,000k = good growth, better color

14,000k = some diminished growth, but much better color

20,000k = even less growth, but awesome color

I'm not sure at this time which LED supplemental lighting would equal these color temperatures. Possibly someone with more experience with LEDs can shed some... light on the subject.

[kriz2fer]

This has been done by a lot of people all over the world and yes even in the usa. I haven't seen anyone try this in Oregon but I have no doubts it would work. I have checked the par on a sunny day and it had plenty but just like others have said not sure the winter months would serve you well.

[kriz2fer]

If I were to attempt growing corals in a greenhouse, I would use some supplemental lighting.

 

6500kelvin = most growth, but also tend to be brown. This is closest to natural sunlight.

 

10,000k = good growth, better color

 

14,000k = some diminished growth, but much better color

 

20,000k = even less growth, but awesome color

 

I'm not sure at this time which LED supplemental lighting would equal these color temperatures. Possibly someone with more experience with LEDs can shed some... light on the subject.

Are they actually changing color or is it the lights that's just giving the effect? Have you pulled one of your sps out of water and looked at it under yellow lights? Not so blue anymore huh?

[pledosophy]

They actually change color with different lighting temperatures. 

 

Changing light spectrum's is a very common way to morph corals now. After changing to a different lighting spectrum, say more or less UV for a crude example the coloration of a coral will change. In a very basic sense corals get there colors from zooanthelle and zooanthelle reproduce at different rates based on several factors, but light spectrum's are one of those factors. 

 

When I am out there diving, even in areas where corals are healthy, corals look much different then they do in our tanks. 

 

Currently I have a tank in my office that is "sunlight" only and corals in that system appear very brown most of the time, but I can color them up significantly in a couple months with the use of higher kelvin temperatured lights. 

 

JME

[badxgillen]

I still don't see the "Debate".

 

I would agree with the above posts, alot of brown if you grow in the sun here.

 

Sun does grow corals, less sun grows less light demanding corals.

Too much inconsistency makes it unfeasible for most people in our region.

This is generally due to obvious reasons such as heat\cold and the need to supplement demanding coral lighting when it is dim and shade it out if it comes on too strong.

There are simply limitations on what can be done with the structure given and the environment provided but this is all things you already know.

 

There are a couple people who  grow corals in Oregon Greenhouses, my friend Kyle has been doing it for many years successfully and has turned it into a business. This is an exception as it has been alot of work and a Huge initial investment.

[JManrow]

I still don't see the "Debate".

 

I would agree with the above posts, alot of brown if you grow in the sun here.

 

Sun does grow corals, less sun grows less light demanding corals.

Too much inconsistency makes it unfeasible for most people in our region.

This is generally due to obvious reasons such as heat\cold and the need to supplement demanding coral lighting when it is dim and shade it out if it comes on too strong.

There are simply limitations on what can be done with the structure given and the environment provided but this is all things you already know.

 

There are a couple people who  grow corals in Oregon Greenhouses, my friend Kyle has been doing it for many years successfully and has turned it into a business. This is an exception as it has been alot of work and a Huge initial investment.

 

I agree it is more of a 'discussion', and not so much of a "debate' A good thread though! I would be interested in seeing an actual coral greenhouse. I have wanted to do this for over 25 years now, using aquaculture techniques for both freshwater and marine in a solar greenhouse. I was grower for Jeibmann's Greenhouses before it was sold to Portland Nursery. Anyone interested in this type of project let me know! Robert, by any chance is the greenhouse in Corvallis?

[jadams7]

Just to piggy back on what the others are saying...Yes, it is possible. Color will be the main issue you will fight IMO. I got very interested in this subject back before the LED craze hit, and even had a tank running with a Solatube over it for a period of time. Saw good growth, everything lived, but the color wasn't the best. There used to be someone years back around here (portland area maybe) who grew ricordea in a greenhouse and had beautiful pieces. 

Also I travel to Ohio for work usually at least yearly, and always make it a point to go by ReefSystems coral farm. They have a greenhouse behind their store, a huuuuge setup that has been growing corals for 8ish years I believe. It is an impressive setup to see (12,000 gallons, maybe more now). They said the sunlight in the winter is plenty, and in the summer they actually have to add some shading of some sort because the lighting gets a bit too much if I recall correctly. Many of the corals do have that brown look to them (natural sunlight after all is not the 14-20k we are accustomed to), but last time I was there they had added a LED that slowly traverses across the length of the tank. They said this has helped them with coloration and the transfer to (mostly) LED lit tanks once transferring the corals from the greenhouse. Also it assists with making colors 'pop' more when looking at the tanks as the LED works its way over a certain section. I had a more recent thread that was lost in the crash, but here is an ancient one I found to give you a rough idea:

http://www.pnwmas.org/topic/25868-my-ohio-saltwater-exploring/?hl=ohio

 

Also check out their website if you want to know more:

http://www.reefsystems.com/

 

So yes, even in non-tropical climates (Ohio, Oregon) you can successfully grow coral using natural sunlight. The issues you will fight IMO will be heating and cooling of the tanks/greenhouse, coloration, and the transition from natural sunlight to a tank lit by LEDs/halides, etc. 

In the good old days, before all of this new fangled LED talk, there seemed to be a lot more interest in the idea of using natural sunlight to grow corals (I have seen some SAWEEET reef tanks using Solatubes and supplemental lighting for coloration over on RC), but as lighting costs have gone down, LED technology has increased, and we all aren't fighting electricity bills and bulb replacement costs like we used to, so it seems the original driving factors to look at using natural sunlight for coral growth have gone by the wayside a bit. Makes sense I guess, if gas was $1.50 a gallon, and cars got 50mpg on gas I don't think there would be the push for hybrids. Same mentality here to me. Fun to think about either way. 

[JManrow]

 Those are some great links, jadams7. Thank you!

 

  I have seen quite a few solar greenhouse plans, and even started digging a below ground foundation a few years ago, when we lived in Beaverton. If we did not have to move because of MAX(our light rail system)construction, I would have completed it. The main thing, other than having the correct Southern Exposure, is dealing with is having the windows at the correct angle to the Sun. Also critical is having the reflective back at the correct angle. There is the matter of heat sinks. I was planning on using dark colored 55 gallon drums(some plastic drums are already a dark blue color)along the back wall to retain heat. One solar greenhouse that I was familiar with in Eastern Oregon needed no supplemental heat in the Winter! If anyone is considering a project like this, please contact me! This might be a great club project!

 

It would seem a dark blue LED, comparable to 14,000K or 20,000K would be the way to go!  I am currently inquiring about any research on the effect of  light filters, and their effect on raising Kelvin temperature of sunlight. I hope to have some replies soon! If this is possible, it would really be cost-effective!

[badxgillen]

Yes the green house is in Corvallis but right outside of town. I have asked about having reputable people over to observe some of the features and setups but he is not one who has many guests. He is building a new one as we speak at his new house so I imagine he is a busy man right now. Once you have a number of coral beds going there is no other route to go but business either wholesale\retail and if you think taking care of a couple tanks is a bit of work and time think about taking care of a few rooms of tanks. It is pretty cool though, just tubs and tubs of corals and anemones and a couple of giant central skimmers.

[JManrow]

Sounds awesome! I'm sure something may be work out at a later date, In the meantime I have way too many projects going on. I have the contact information. Nothing rushed.

Having worked wholesale/retail with aquariums, and also with large greenhouse operations, I can understand what he is dealing with!

[badguitarist]

I am going to start with a disclaimer: I don't get on here often so don't be offended if I don't answer your questions in a reasonable time frame. Also I am very, very tired so I might just ramble. Also, I don't really enjoy the message boards as there tends to be a lot of negativity on them, That is why I never post. Also I only go to town 1 or 2 days a week, so I get kinda cabin feverish sometimes. Sorry if stuff is out of order or I sound blunt. And yes my greenhouse is in the corvallis area (Kings Valley actually. If you want a history lesson on Kings/Airlie and Tampico Valleys I can give one to you). I own and operate a wholesale Facility growing Coral under natural sunlight. I currently produce 250 or so corals every month, not only tiny frags but colonies as well. The new greenhouse will produce around 800 corals per month,maybe more. I have been doing this for going on 7 years. To answer the question. YES you can grow coral under natural sunlight and much faster than under even the best artificial lights. There is way too much sun in Oregon. From February-October I shade all of my corals in one way or another to keep lighting in the correct range. Right now the greenhouse has 50% shade cloth on it and I am still getting PAR Readings of 200 in my coral tubs (these readings were taken today around 4 pm with a medium cloud cover). in fact, My euphyllia and Leather coral tubs both have an additional 60% shade cloth on them to get the par down to around 80.

 

The idea that natural sunlight grows brown corals is mostly false, with the exception of Acroporiids (acropora, montipora). I am not sure where this idea is coming from as I grow many brains, Leathers, Mushrooms, Hammers, Pocilloporiids, ricordia, etc that look exceptional under natural sunlight, In fact the only real time they start to lose their color is when the days get longer and they get over illuminated (I have measured over 1500 Par in the greenhouse on nice summer days.) as soon as I pop more shade cloth on them and measure with a PAR meter to get correct light intensity, they start to get their color back. Currently the only light I have in the greenhouse is 1 250 watt 20k Halide on a light rail running over about 500 gallons of stony corals to keep the color more consistent. Other than that everything is natural sunlight only. 

 

as far as temp control. I am not sure what the issue with that would be. Heat the greenhouse in the winter and vent it/swamp cool/evap cool in the summer. Very simple to heat and cool a greenhouse, just expensive through the cold months. No different than running a retail or wholesale building. climate control the room, not the water.

 

As far as growing corals in a greenhouse, is it better? yes. is it harder YES. is it a good idea to turn into a group project as someone on here mentioned? terrible idea for so many reasons it is making my brain melt just thinking about it. Anyone wanting to make a living at this needs to realize, It will take a HUGE investment with little to no return on that investment for several years and that is only if you don't screw up and kill EVERYTHING. I did that once, it sucked. If you have a family, I wouldn't even think about it unless you have a very sizeable chunk of money stored away as a rainy day fund, you'll need it. I have a very loving and supportive wife, If it wasn't for her I would have to be like all you other chumps and work for the man, and drive into the city every day. I was able to learn the ropes as my family is in the agriculture industry and it was pretty easy for me to play around with some tanks in the back of a greenhouse for a few years before even attempting to do this project. Expect a TON of work to be involved. Litteraly a TON and expect it at the worst time. Like the morning of your wedding when Power goes out to the entire greenhouse and instead of enjoying your family your troubleshooting what went wrong and praying you can fix it in time...

 

In essense if you just want an enjoyable, really good looking, easy to maintain fish tank. buy some LEDS and keep it in the house. If you want a full time job that wont make you money for a loooong time build a greenhouse and put some Extra lighting over any corals that wont color up.

 

I have much, much more to say on this but I am tired and I may not get back on here for quite some time. There is also some info I wont divulge as I have put a huge investment of time, money and energy into this and I'm not too interested in handing it out for free. If you want to learn go get an education in the school of hard nocks, thats how I did it. Robert, I do want you to come out sometime I am just busy 100% of the time. I would love to have you over. I should be filling tubs in the new greenhouse around the middle of July. Hit me up sometime!

 

If someone can teach me how to put pictures on this thread I will do so.

[JManrow]

Hey badguitarist! I am really glad to see you again! We are working hard so the negativity and constant fighting are a thing of the past here. I have no time for it in my life. I have also been away awhile. My wife had passed away awhile back, after becoming increasingly disabled. I am into the club all the way now! Please check back in from time to time on our progress!   I liked Tampico Coral Farms on facebook the other day. Very nice.   What I was thinking was if someone where to be setting up a coral growing greenhouse anyway, it would be great for members to drop in and help grow a few things. Thanks for the great information in your post. Keep in touch!    The best way to post pics is to open a free account at Photobucket.com and upload your pictures there. Then, you just copy and paste the Image Code along with the text in your post, and the image will appear when you post it.

 

I am retired now early, and am on disability, so I can work with the club nearly as a full time job!

[badguitarist]

Hey john,

Glad your enjoying the club. While I know these forums serve a purpose, my participation with them is few and far between,I really like my privacy and I'm not much of a socialite and being a commercial operation selling at wholesale levels only, I do like to keep most things private. anyways I am glad that its a good place for so many people, yourself included. My concern with letting others "help out" is that its only going to take one idiot to do something stupid and kill everything. What happens when someone stops by for ten minutes and accidentaly leaves the door open when they leave on a night thats 20 degrees. Or someone decides your water parameters are off and doses things in such a way that you have a giant precipitation issue. Or hey what if someone adds a new coral without quarantining it and now you have a 500 gallon tub full of Aptasia/aefw/etc. I can very seriously see that happening if it becomes a group project. If your just doing it for fun and not business then sure let others join in and accept the fact that people very well may screw things up. If it is a business I would steer clear of this route. Thats just my two cents on that topic. I have enough paranoia letting my dad take over when I'm out of town and hes been keeping saltwater aquariums since the 70's...I don't want to scare you off just letting you know some of the serious realities that could present themselves. I'll try to get a few pictures up later

[JManrow]

Good points. I know a guy whose employee left halides on all night. He lost his entire inventory of corals. I know even when things are double, or even triple checked, things can go wrong.  It's sort of like having someone watch over your tanks while your on vacation... but on a much larger scale. I can see then need for keeping a log of everything done. We ofter did this in retail and wholesale operations, and with greenhouse work. People need to be responsible, and having a plan to follow is always good.

[badguitarist]

Yes its similar to having someone take care of your tanks while on vacation except that if your tank crashes life goes on relatively unchanged. If a greenhouse operation crashes then you don't get a paycheck. Seriously though, Checklists are imperative. It drives my wife nuts but I will get up at 3 in the morning sometimes just to Double check on some menial thing that I can't remember if I put back correctly before I left the greenhouse. In the winter this happens to be a good time to stoke the stove as well (wood heat cuts down on the propane bill, plus its a nice place to dry off after playing in water all day!)

[Emerald525]

Hey Kyle ( badguitarist) I think that's your name it's been a while . Sorry to go off topic but wanted to thank you again for the 40b you donated to tanks for teacher. It's doing well. One day would love to see your greenhouse operation! Good to see you posting. Great information.

[badguitarist]

Ha!, I can't believe you still have that tank. I'm glad its working for you. and Yep Kyles my name. You should post a pic of the tank (maybe not the stand though, it doesn't exactly show off my carpentry skills)

[Emerald525]

Ha!, I can't believe you still have that tank. I'm glad its working for you. and Yep Kyles my name. You should post a pic of the tank (maybe not the stand though, it doesn't exactly show off my carpentry skills)

I don't have a recent pic as I have been out of the hobby for almost 2 years and just getting back into it. There used to be a subforum called Pioneer school under Tft that's been removed but I'm hopeful that will be returned. Here's a link to reef2reef that has some old pictures:

http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/member-tanks/106676-tanks-teacher-happy-2-year-anniversary-pioneer-school.html