Emerald525 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I have noticed a lot of new members and wanted to pass this along.It's also just a general reminder to us all. Coral magazine has a great article about survivability of small frags. http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/scientifically-smarter-frags This is something I have noticed personally. The article is about sps but it holds true for lps and zoas as well. If you can you are better off spending the extra money for a bigger frag. I have seen online vendors selling frags that are 1/2 inch and 3/4 inch and tiny chalice frags (nono). I would not advise buying these. As I like to say: It's not a good deal if it ends up dead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mohaynow Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Good call Kim. My inner cheapskate is always attracted to the tiny little piece of something awesome, but more often than not the tiny inexpensive frag ends up as a tiny expensive piece of live rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grassi Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Aren't you from Texas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 Aren't you from Texas? Why yes, yes I am. I will also be going to Macna next September and hope there will be a Dallas Cowboys football game.(laugh)(backtotopic) Okay enough hijacking my own thread! Here's an excerpt from the article. What a difference an inch makes and I'm talking SPS you dirty minded individuals!(nono)(laugh) In the first experiment, 15 fragments measuring 1 inch (2.5 cm) and 1.75 inches (4.5 cm) in length were obtained from donor corals and glued to substrate rocks out of the water. After 20 days only 13 percent of the smaller fragments were still alive, while the figure was 87 percent for the larger specimens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Dog Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Nice info Kim.....too bad I just bought some frags that were all tiny. I guess I learn the hard way again DOH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I agree. On the other side you have to be cautious about moving large specimens as well. I have been lucky enough to deal with some really large corals. Many of them have adapted to very specific light and flow patterns. Especially with plating and tightly branched corals. If the flow or light changes even slightly, it can lead to death from the inside out. Sps dont like settling debris and grow to avoid it and maximize light. I have seen it with large birdsnests, monti caps, acro efflo, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Also it is nice to see a surge of new members. There were a lot of "get out" sales lately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 Nice info Kim.....too bad I just bought some frags that were all tiny. I guess I learn the hard way again DOH! Rashaan! I'm trying to help you learn from my mistakes! It's cheaper that way! (laugh) That's why I gave you the tiny little Sailor's warning for free that time! Also it is nice to see a surge of new members. There were a lot of "get out" sales lately I agree Mike. It was nice to see so many fresh new faces at Barelycuda's house this weekend and all the "getting out of the hobby" threads have been depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grassi Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Back on the topic, I have a copy of Lirman's article that inspired this research. I will email it to who is interested. Not sure I can post it here... In his work, other than size, it is considered the substrate. After storms stony corals fragments are spread away and he discussed the survival rate depending on the landing substrate. But we know this, that's why we don't put sand in frag tanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandinga Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Kim, I'm glad you posted this article, people should be aware of coral chop shops that are selling tiny frags from wild colonies. Rashaan and I bought tiny frags recently, and one out of ten has died so far, though it was my fault it died(got left in bag). I do think these chop shops are a little misleading and may not be practicing a sustainable or environmentally friendly practice. However, setting the minimum standard "safe Frag size" at 1.75" is misleading to say the least. This study appears to have been done on one species of acropora...just one. There are thousands of species of coral, each will behave/respond differently to being fragged. To generally state that all coral will react the same would be without evidence. I have lost frags of 1/2", but I've grown plenty into colonies... This study leaves Sooooooo many questions open for discussion/debate. What were the conditions they were raised in? What kind of equipment(lighting, etc), how stable an environment? After 20 days, they only had 13% of their 1" frags still alive????it would be easy to draw a conclusion that the species they are studying has a low tolerance to small frags, or that the care the frags were receiving was inadequate. I have raised hundreds of frags from 1" ...I've lost plenty too, but not 87%! Definitely an interesting topic! Any day of the week I'll take a 3/4" aquacultured Frag rather than a wild colony. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 I agree Isaac there are other factors involved and it can be very complicated but I still think for a newbie a minimum size frag of an inch is a good rule of thumb. I also have gotten smaller frags and they have survived. The point of the posting is more buyer beware. Healing time also plays a very important role too. I have gotten frags online that it seemed the glue hadn't really dried yet LOL and for shipping and the stress of shipping fresh frags are not the way to go. Of course wild versus aquaculture makes a difference too and of course there are other factors involved but in general a bigger frag means a better chance of survival all other factors aside. There are people and places I will buy online and others I won't because of their business practices no matter what kind of deal they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigjohnwoody Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Awesome article Kim. Thanks. Is there a good place to find the best way to glue frags underwater. I mean, just superglue the plug stick it underwater and stick the piece to it? Seems like the glue would glaze really quick underwater. Or just use a 2 part epoxy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandinga Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 It was interesting that the small frags of the coral they studied, Acropora cervicornis, grew at a faster rate, but that the larger frags attained a greater height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 It was interesting that the small frags of the coral they studied' date=' Acropora cervicornis, grew at a faster rate, but that the larger frags attained a greater height.[/quote'] Yeah, I was surprised by those results not sure what to make of it. It was a small study but it's a start. There is so much about this hobby that lacks research like treating ich with garlic. You might as well use garlic to ward off vampires too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 It was interesting that the small frags of the coral they studied' date=' Acropora cervicornis, grew at a faster rate, but that the larger frags attained a greater height.[/quote'] Purely speculating here but when you clone plants, you aim for where the newest growth is, which is also where the maximum amount of growth hormones are. Seems to me like there are probably different growth hormones at different concentrations in different parts of the coral (thats a mouthful). Taking frags at different spots will induce a different response. Might be reaching, but its fun to combine botany, marine biology, chemistry, and genetics isnt it? Oh my professors would be so proud haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facilier Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I guess I can't agree with the general opinion here. I find small frags the most rewarding. I haven't had a small frag die yet, but I have had some amazing growth out of, what would be considered, small frags. I really don't see the point in spending more for something that you can grow yourself. Save the cash for more!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facilier Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Purely speculating here but when you clone plants' date=' you aim for where the newest growth is, which is also where the maximum amount of growth hormones are. Seems to me like there are probably different growth hormones at different concentrations in different parts of the coral (thats a mouthful). Taking frags at different spots will induce a different response. [/quote'] I think you are on to something here. I have noticed that when I cut my corals at the places that have new growth they tend to heal and start growing faster than other area's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Reminds me of that Steve Tyree video where he's taking one of his "named" corals and cutting it with a jewelers saw. He cut the branch into a bunch of small discs like the size of a dime, and this was a 3" branch or so. He must have cut 100 frags and glued them down flat. I'm sure he then posted them up for a "generous" price as usual. After that i never bought a tyree coral again, this article backs me up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facilier Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Reminds me of that Steve Tyree video where he's taking one of his "named" corals and cutting it with a jewelers saw. He cut the branch into a bunch of small discs like the size of a dime, and this was a 3" branch or so. He must have cut 100 frags and glued them down flat. I'm sure he then posted them up for a "generous" price as usual. After that i never bought a tyree coral again, this article backs me up This is interesting, I have been told several times now that unless I wish to get gouged in price I should avoid Tyree corals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 This is interesting' date=' I have been told several times now that unless I wish to get gouged in price I should avoid Tyree corals.[/quote'] Yep, that is why I don't have a single Tyree coral. Oh i have corals that are EXACTLY the same as a Tyree coral, but i paid a fraction of the price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Yep' date=' that is why I don't have a single Tyree coral. Oh i have corals that are EXACTLY the same as a Tyree coral, but i paid a fraction of the price [/quote'] Same here. Its sickening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electrokate Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 man... if I make a frag the size of a garbanzo bean I do not sell it. Not til it grows anyway. People are funny though, tried to sell a round densely branched colony slightly larger than a golf ball of ponape birdsnest (before it was everywhere for practically free) for $35, had grown it for over a year on the plug... was told by 2 people that a 3/4-1" size $5-15 buck piece would be better. But... 35 is not that much for a display ready colony, is it? (Probably is not even worth 5 bucks now but I kept it and I still like it 35 bucks worth of like.) Some people really want tiny cheap frags. Me I don't like to gamble, especially since I am also gambling on picking up new algae, red bugs, black bugs, flatworms, roundworms, nudibranchs and who knows what all else we have not yet identified. I got a quarantine tank so full of problems I had to start another quarantine tank. I should take the entire thing to the dump. No I don't like to gamble on my established livestock with new "cheap" deals. Read a long time ago that many acroporas need to grow horizontally and encrust a certain amount laterally before they will form a bush shape, so started mounting them and birdsnests in an X or V pattern horizontally on the frag disc or hanging them from a string horizontally. It works! They grow in 5-12 directions instead of one horn shaped frag. Probably doesn't work with everything but I highly recommend it if you have enough of something to experiment with. My frag mortality rate would decrease significantly if I did not keep tangs. Why do they drop frags either in caves or on things that sting? Drop snails deep into birdsnest colonies and hermits in acros? Looking at the future and I don't see tangs in it. They need more space than a 120 anyways. Don't tell Snorkel Bob I said that. (: One more reason for bigger frags: Harder for the tangs to pitch into a powerhead. Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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