Arsonmfg Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I'm sure most of you read ReefBuilders, for those of you that don't should. Anyways, a while back I posted a thread about a LFS and their deceiving practice of selling dyed anemones. Well, looks like our local wholesaler has made it to the big time... http://reefbuilders.com/2011/08/08/dyed-animals-reef-aquarium/ Make sure you read through the comments on their Facebook page and you can form your own opinion. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=253040391390774&set=a.107621815932633.12299.107605649267583&type=1&theater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 My opinion: Personally i am not into these animals or any anemone (wanderers) but i dont buy the cruelty thing. Its dye, like whats in all those sodas you drink. You want to talk cruelty, talk about people razoring them in half for propapation. Dye is cruel. Give me a break. Worst thing that will happen is you get a nice normal white sebae a year from now. It doesnt kill it. Dont pull the cruelty card, inform yourself, or i can for you I am sorry but you cannot blame wholesers. A lot wholesalers can and do get them. And it is NOT a death wish, 9 times out of 10 it was the illinformed hobbiest who makes an impulsive buy and would have killed any anemone not just a dyed one. Hobbiests must be informed and its unfiar to expect a wholesaler to have time to hold your hand through the process, thats what retail sales is for. Also they were fully disclosed. I dont see the issue. He did his part, and he cant really put a warning label on it so everyone knows its dyed. The most you can say about selling these animals is that it is unethical IF its not disclosed. Otherwise, hobbiests can and will get what they want. Shop at a good store you trust and be educated enough to make your own "moral" decisions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I'm sure most of you read ReefBuilders, for those of you that don't should. Anyways, a while back I posted a thread about a LFS and their deceiving practice of selling dyed anemones. Well, looks like our local wholesaler has made it to the big time... http://reefbuilders.com/2011/08/08/dyed-animals-reef-aquarium/ Make sure you read through the comments on their Facebook page and you can form your own opinion. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=253040391390774&set=a.107621815932633.12299.107605649267583&type=1&theater This is a local wholesaler's site?(scratch) I'm not buying the full disclosure that they admitted that they are dyed. Of course they admitted it because someone was going to point it out. All they said that yes they are dyed. The important part of this statement is as stated in the reefbuilder's article is: Not only is the dying of animals a very big ethical question, these animals are also doomed to die in captivity with low long term survival rates. Most dyed anemones and corals that do survive eventually loose their impressive colors, leaving behind the not so impressive natural colors. I have seen dyed anemones and you can see the color already leaching off of them. It's obviously a way to make a quick buck by providing them in these unnatural colors and I for one am not for a wholesaler who shamelessly promotes this practice. A wholesaler does not have to buy them this way or promote them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattv Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 If you want fake colors then just buy plastic decorations. Seams a bit cruel to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePremiumAquarium Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I definitely am not going to take sides on this issue but I feel that there is some serious education that needs to happen here. I see both sides of the coin but I am kind of with MVP on this one. I have had dyed anemones in the past(years ago) and to be honest they all did just fine. Didn't lose one! In fact the only thing that happened is they lost their dyed colors and after about 6 months they had returned to their natural former glory. I am sure this isn't everyones experience but to be honest almost everyone who I have talked to who is a pretty serious hobbiest and has had these has said they usually are just a bit dissapointed when they lose the color and end up like a normal nem. Do I feel that dyed anemones are pretty? NO, I don't which is why I don't buy them or sell them lol. Do I think they are harmed by the dye? I don't think so though I am sure their is some science to it that I am uneducated on that probably can be used to argue either side of the issue here. I have personally killed more anemones from them wandering into a powerhead or behind a rock for months on end(I rarely lose on honestly. They are actually pretty hard for me to kill lol) then I would have liked. Just suprised that this is such a huge ordeal when their are so many other things in this hobby that people need to be concerned about. Get as educated as you can on the subject and decided whether it is right for you or not. Here are some tips if you for some reason have bought one and feel it is at risk or something and would like it to return to looking like a normal anemone: -Run a good protein skimmer and clean it often. These guys will give your skimmate a real pretty color -Run high quality carbon and change it out regularly(good to do in general). -Do regular water changes. -Make sure the anemone has plenty of light and a good amount of flow. Heteractus anemones require intense lighting to maintain optimal health. Metal Halide lighitng has been ideal in my expeience though I have seen success with t-5's and would imagine one could be successful with the right LED lighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 almost everyone who I have talked to who is a pretty serious hobbiest and has had these has said they usually are just a bit dissapointed when they lose the color and end up like a normal nem. What serious hobbiest would have purchased a dyed nem? I think it is a cheap ruse to get new hobbiests to "look at the pretty anemone" and purchase it, not knowing that this species is pretty drab in the wild... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePremiumAquarium Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Suprisingly many serious hobbiests have purchased them. I have though I wouldn't consider myself nearly as serious of a hobbiest back then. I think that their is definitely some truth to the ruse but it seems that the bigger issue that people are having is the effect of the dye on the anemone. I am not sure that their is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 It's nice to have the input from the local stores. I think the big deal is that for the most part it is a scam. People are impulsive in this hobby and see the bright pretty colors and not realize the colors will fade. Is it harmful to the anemone? I'm not an expert. .These are not the easiest anemones to keep in the first place and my guess is they typically get sold to newbie, so they may have died from other reasons. I have seen a post on another site that the dye could perhaps block the zooxanthellae from getting light. If that's the case then I think this practice should be made illegal. The only rationale I can see for dyeing these particularly as the colors fade is to attract attention and sell more. It seems a bit dishonest IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePremiumAquarium Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 That part, I can agree with This is why I don't sell them. Not because I think it's cruel. Though I could see how it may be, I just have never heard a good explanation as to how it affects the anemone negatively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newreefer02 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 What ever happened to researching the products you buy? There is a clear difference when you look at the dyed nems! There is no wonder in my mind why there is so much wasted money in this hobby.... how many of you would go buy a car and take the sales persons word to heart without researching it??? Atleast this wholesaler is telling you the truth about the product instead of liein!!! Now the problem really lays in your local lfs, if you "don't agree or like it" shop somewhere else! Its not like there is only one LFS in the state guys and gals! Plus its not like you are FORCED to buy these things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Wow. Thought this might be drama but we all kinda agree on the same side. The key is...education. I have a degree in zoology and marine biology. Still no expert but i can tell you they have no ability to sense cruelty. Just light and stimulus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I would also like to give props to garrett. Nice points often unheard from retailers. Newfeerer, love the used car salesman reference! So true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhowe Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 If suppliers are dying them, then dyed nems are more than likely destined for more countries than just the United States. It's kinda egotistical to think that dyed nems are just meant for US consumers. Has anybody looked into the demand of dyed nems in Asia and Europe? And adding dye to a nem seems much more humane than cutting them into quarters with a razor blade. How many nems are killed from inexperienced people fragging them compared to the dye used by a supplier??? My guess is there are more nem deaths from cutting them up than due to dye being injected. You could argue that cutting up nems is just a way to make a quick buck also. Where is the thread wanting to stop people from chopping up nems? Way more barbaric than dye. Most dyed nems are all Seabae, which are also hard to take care of when they have no dye. Most do not last that long anyway. They are just not a hardy nem. Sounds like the dye gets a bad rap cause it's injected in a species that is not as likely to survive, dyed or not dyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsonmfg Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 The reason I made this post is because the sad reality is that there are A LOT of people that don't know about these things. Threads like this are educational. If people know to avoid these animals and there is no market for them then the practice stops, change starts with the end purchaser and works it's way back. No matter your take on it, things like this are not good for the hobby. The problem I have is the justification of the wholesaler. To make an extreme comparison, it's really no different than me importing cocaine from Columbia because there are drug dealers here that will purchase that cocaine, it's now on them to sell that cocaine to the drug user however they feel necessary... As long as I make my money I could care less what happens after that because it's not my problem. Granted this is a very extreme comparison but the mentality really isn't much different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trautman Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 All I am saying is that a dye is a TOXIN, is this food quality die? probably not, and even then, a dye is a poison... Many people get shot livers from large body tattoos (that is dye too). I am not saying the dye kills them, but it cannot help the chances of survival. I also remember reading that the xoanthellae get expelled by the dye (hence you see a lack of pigment once the dye has left)... and if the previous statement holds true, then the sea anemone needs more than just a light... Which the owner might not be aware of... Please let me know if I am correct, most of this is out of the back of my head. I kinda side with garret and mike on this one, and I applaud the educational value of the thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newreefer02 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 The problem I have is the justification of the wholesaler. To make an extreme comparison, it's really no different than me importing cocaine from Columbia because there are drug dealers here that will purchase that cocaine, it's now on them to sell that cocaine to the drug user however they feel necessary... As long as I make my money I could care less what happens after that because it's not my problem. Granted this is a very extreme comparison but the mentality really isn't much different. Are you serious???? How can you even compare drug dealing/using to reef keeping??? This is the most assanine reply you could make! Although I do love the educational aspect of this thread! Like I said before RESEARCH before you buy, easy as that! (If your a true "advanced" hobbiest) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsonmfg Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Although it's very extreme it really isn't any different as far as the business mentality goes... Pass the blame to the next person in line. It's no different than wholesalers that still bring in cyanide caught fish. Although the practice isn't common anymore it still happens. I personally don't have a problem keeping my animals alive, I've kept some of the most difficult animals out there alive and healthy for many years. I've done my homework and I'm educated on the animals I keep, the problem is that there are A LOT of people out there that are clueless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Please let's try to keep this thread on topic and civil. I personally don't agree with the process of dying anemones but I have seen them in some of the fish stores of owners I do respect. It's nice to see the opposing view. Reefkeeping is totally an addictive hobby as those who have seen my own personal coral crackhouse would attest to. There are some really good points on both sides of the argument and props to people for not being afraid to chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReefSafari Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Are you serious???? How can you even compare drug dealing/using to reef keeping??? This is the most assanine reply you could make! Although I do love the educational aspect of this thread! Like I said before RESEARCH before you buy' date=' easy as that! (If your a true "advanced" hobbiest)[/quote'] So are you saying this hobby is not addicting like a drug? I am going to have to disagree with you there...lol, its HIGHLY addictive...and like any Drug Deal, I have met people in parking lots, exchanged cold hard cash for little peices of coral that are nicely packaged in plastic baggies...heck I have certain "Dealers" I like better than others, and I know where to get the hookups....so to me, its not all that far off...I have often times been the dealer as well, and just like any drug dealer, you have to make sure you have the right sized bagies and rubber bands and "Tools" to frag, heck my neighbors think I am growing Cannibus from the light emitting from my living room....There are lots of simularities.... I had another hobby at one point, and I wholesaled lots of offspring that I produced, at least in that hobby, wholesalers are only thinking about one thing.....$$$$....Its all about supply and demand...if there is a demand, they will find a way to fill it...simple as that...not saying all wholesalers are like this, but many either are, or they become that way. Or lets look at it another way...all those fancy SPS, LPS and Zoas that have all those fancy names???? Just like any other drug out there, you got your AK-47, Alaskin Thunder, Purple Cush, Blueberry yumyum, Chocolate Chunk...ect..ect.. They all get fancy names after a while, to try and distinguish thiers as being better...to me its no different (other than the obvious, one is illegal and one isnt) I can buy a bag of Magic Thunder or a bag of Magician Zoas...lol If there is a demand...then there will be a supply...some way...some how. They have been doing this with Freshwater fish for quite a while, and its still popular...Heck they can even tattoo your name on a freshwater tropical fish for you... http://www.underwatertimes.com/news.php?article_id=01769543281 Another Article... http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=829 While I don't care for the dyed look myself, its a part of the hobby that will probably stick around for a while, where there is money to be made, there will be issues like this, you would be suprised at how some people think, if it dies they will just buy another one...no big deal...I take it personally when something dies, I do everything I can to try and figure out why it died, just short of sending off lab results and necropsy....but often times people just think of this as something fun to do, and drop money on, and if it dies, well, they will just get another one...and the demand continues. You wouldn't believe how many people impulse buy...or don't care they just want it...even if they are told its dyed, if they like it or want it...they will fork out the money for it...and the cycle continues...Its like how many fish are sold every year to people who don't have the correct setup for them? You would be suprised...I was really into Cat Fish in my earlier times, and I got to a point where once they get big you either have to rehome them, or setup a larger tank...how many actually do that? Bottom line, in this country its a free market, and people are going to do whatever they can and want to make that money...and in my book, as long as the wholesaler or LFS is not trying to slap a fancy name on it and doop people, then I don't see a problem with it personally....As it was mentioned, most of these anemone's die anyway reguardless of if they are dyed or not....Only thing I can do is not hand over my hard earned cash to those selling them, and try to educate people that they are not some fancy Carribean Nuclear Lotus Flower Anemone that is only $499.99... This type of thing has been around for a while... Lets not forget the "GloFish"...Genetically Altered.... Although not originally developed for the ornamental fish trade, it is one of the first genetically modified animals to become publicly available as a pet. In 1999, Dr. Zhiyuan Gong and his colleagues at the National University of Singapore were working with a gene called green fluorescent protein (GFP), originally extracted from a jellyfish, that naturally produced bright green fluorescence. They inserted the gene into a zebrafish embryo, allowing it to integrate into the zebrafish's genome, which caused the fish to be brightly fluorescent under both natural white light and ultraviolet light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newreefer02 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 The fact of the matter is people dye them and there's nothing that can be done about it... All in all there are FAR worse things that we do in the reef keeping world! That's like saying fraging coral is cruel...if it wasn't for a slight amount of it there would only be FISH tanks! At that how is it not "cruel" to the fish/coral that we pull out of their natural habitat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newreefer02 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 At reefsafari, I'm not sayin this is not an addicting hobby at all we all know it is! But to compare it to something that degrades society is a lil redic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReefSafari Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 The fact of the matter is people dye them and there's nothing that can be done about it... All in all there are FAR worse things that we do in the reef keeping world! That's like saying fraging coral is cruel...if it wasn't for a slight amount of it there would only be FISH tanks! At that how is it not "cruel" to the fish/coral that we pull out of their natural habitat? Exactly...where do you draw the line? of what is aceptable and what isn't? Its a slippery slope...You can choose to enjoy the hobby and try to fill your tanks with captive propagated corals, or dwell on all the negative aspects...I choose to enjoy it...call it sticking my head in the sand, but as you said... All in all there are FAR worse things that we do in the reef keeping world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReefSafari Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 At reefsafari' date=' I'm not sayin this is not an addicting hobby at all we all know it is! But to compare it to something that degrades society is a lil redic.[/quote'] Well some people would argue that the coral reefs are in such grave danger of dieing that our hobby is a detriment to the natural coral reefs...so in a way some people think our hobby degrades the enviroment...at least the importation of wild caught corals. Think of all the corals that die every year from improper care, or system malfunction, reguardless of fault or not, they still die, I admit I have killed my fare share of corals during my startup, and I am still learning, I am sure I will accidently kill more down the line somehow.... Personally, I don't think its the dye that kills them, I think just like all those that are not dyed...those too often perish in captivity...so I think the dye is just a way to sell something new, and of course this hobby is all about something new and different right? I think just as many that are not dyed perish as well, so to me...they are not dieing because they are dyed, its becuase they are often harder to keep in captivity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhowe Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Well some people would argue that the coral reefs are in such grave danger of dieing that our hobby is a detriment to the natural coral reefs...so in a way some people think our hobby degrades the enviroment...at least the importation of wild caught corals. Think of all the corals that die every year from improper care, or system malfunction, reguardless of fault or not, they still die, I admit I have killed my fare share of corals during my startup, and I am still learning, I am sure I will accidently kill more down the line somehow.... Think of all the corals killed by deep sea trolling nets and some a-hole dropping his anchor everyday on the reef to go play scuba steve for a few hours. One swipe of a trolling net probably causes more damage than all the hobby malfunctions and accidents for an entire year. Hobby people only have tiny pieces of the real deal corals that are found in nature. The barrier reef alone is like 130,000 sq miles. Odds are ocean temp or current change will kill the reefs before anybody can did up that much coral. And seabae and not a hardy nem. Back to the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkreefer Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Wow what a lame thing to hype up! These wouldn't be around if people didn't buy them hahaha and all this from a group of people that support cutting them in half alive to split them for sale!!! The dictionary defines a hypocrite as someone who "pretends to be better than he really is or to be pious, virtuous without really being so." A hypocrite is someone who says one thing and does the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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