grassi Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Frank, you can find them on craigslist: http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/grd/2269489033.html Wash them with vinegar or soda ash and you are ready to go. Mike, the problem of the Hanna phosphates, both the small unit and the blue one, is that the inaccuracy with the reagents is +/- 0.04. Which makes them useless for an sps tank where your goal is <0.02ppm With the Hanna I was always reading 0. Then I got the weater tested better and I found out to be around 0.025 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold B Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Anything .3 and lower is OK. Its actually better to have some than none FME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grassi Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Anything .3 and lower is OK. Its actually better to have some than none FME. 0.3? that's a lot lol Most of the expert suggest to stay below 0.02 If you meant 0.03, then ok.. 0.02 or 0.03 are pretty much the same with the testing instruments that most of us are using Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Mike, the problem of the Hanna phosphates, both the small unit and the blue one, is that the inaccuracy with the reagents is +/- 0.04. That is up to +- 0.04, not necissarily 0.04 error each time, so you have to use good repeatable technique and plot trends. My tank is usually at 0.01 but will occasionally spike to 0.03, so I then start to use some GFO to bring it down. I think the meters are the best for charting trends in phosphate when you get down to the very small ammounts near zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electrokate Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I have an idea... next meeting everyone bring their phosphate kits and a few jars of sample water and we compare tests? I have the LaMotte "low range" kit (which is not all that low) and would love to see how it compares. I had looked into the hanna checker but heard about issues with microbubbles and cleanliness skewing results, and since I do not see well I would probably not notice mistakes with sampling. So I chose a "better quality" liquid test kit. One of my tanks was .6, the reef/display tested zero with the LaMotte kit. The high testing tank had minimal microalgae compared to the zero tank but strong macroalgae growth, and I had no goal of it being low phosphate since I feed that tank 4-6 times a day, it has filefish. Newly made up Instant Ocean saltwater had double the phosphate of tap. I repeated the tests several times to rule out user error. I switched salt brands and began religiously rinsing my fish food prior to serving it, gave the skimmers a good cleaning and started a daily skimmer maintenance routine. Bought the BRS phosphate reactor and GFO and put it on the tank testing zero as I assumed the only reason it tests zero is the cyano and microalgae was intercepting the phosphate as it entered the water. The high testing tank went down to zero a couple weeks later even without the BRS GFO setup, the reef still tested zero but the algae looked just as bad as ever. A couple weeks ago I moved the GFO reactor to the filefish tank and this morning the cyano was almost gone. But unfortunately the caulerpa also melted down. I think I would like to have SOME phosphate in that tank since filefish spawn on macroalgae (: Also have some beautiful red and purple algae in that tank I hope will not melt down... So the GFO reactor is going back to the reef. Thought it was so odd that rinsing fish food and skimmer care appears to have made such a major difference, if you are not doing those steps I would definitely recommend a trial run. But it is equally possible nothing changed at all other than my LaMotte kit going bad (: Which is why I suggest being one of the people to bring water known to be nasty. Kate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grassi Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Mike the accuracy is not measured on the human mistake, but just on the cell itself. You have to add the human error factor on top of that. So if you are really good, you still have that 0.04 every time you test. The new Phosphorus checker has a better accuracy, but the quality of the reagent make it useless. With good reagents it can be an accurate checker. You still have to convert from P to PO4, but you already do some math when testing alk Kate, it looks like a nice idea. Let's do it not this time, but for the april meeting. I want to get some good reagents for my photometer first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Ok soI know mine is High and I want it to look better but here is the question why do we think it has to be that low. I look at my tank andI dont have any hair alge or any real problems I dont see anything that look wrong it jus want it to look a little better. So why is it mine is so high but still looks good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 That's exactly why its hard to believe that your Phosphates are so high...Im pretty sure you would see the results of high phosphates (excessive algae & no color/growth in your corals) if they were really that high. Any also, you are carbon dosing which, if done properly, should nearly eliminate your Phosphates & Nitrates. We'll find out on Sunday when I bring my LaMotte Nitrate kit over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markvo Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 "Grassi explaind to me why the tank didnt like the GFO. As strange as this sounds the new way seems to work.... " Frank, what did Grassi tell you? Please share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grassi Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 "Grassi explaind to me why the tank didnt like the GFO. As strange as this sounds the new way seems to work.... " Frank, what did Grassi tell you? Please share. Frank is running a probiotic method. Carbon and bacteria don't go well with GFO. First the two tend to compete. Then the GFO is gonna release the phosphates if the water column has a very low concentration of phosphates. The GFO subtract the phosphates from the water, but it is just temporary and they are still in the water column and they will be release back if the rest of the water has a very low concentration of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grassi Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Ok soI know mine is High and I want it to look better but here is the question why do we think it has to be that low. I look at my tank andI dont have any hair alge or any real problems I dont see anything that look wrong it jus want it to look a little better. So why is it mine is so high but still looks good? I told you: leave it as it is But you keep saying that you want more growth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grassi Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Frank, do this. Boil the cuvettes for about 10 minutes in RO/DI water (or distilled water). Put something inside so they don't shatter. Then let them soak in vinegar for a few hours. Rinse a few times (5-10) with RO/DI or Distilled water. Then put your gloves on and test. Clean the cuvettes before you put them in the checker with a glasses cloth (or similar microfiber cloth). Clean them both times (zeroing and test). Use one cuvette per test: fill with water, do the c1, fill with powder, put it back and do the c2. Cut the reagent in one corner, or all the way on the top so you can make a little funnel. Be sure you pour all the powder. Let me know how it goes. If you are around during the weekend you can swing by my place and we can test on my tank again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 I have to think the reading is right cause when I do the make up water with the GFO I get zero when I test my RO I get .01 .00. I used one of the new ones from the alk tester and got the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Boiling RO/DI is dangerous business! Be careful doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Frank is running a probiotic method. Carbon and bacteria don't go well with GFO There are many people including myself that use both methods successfully. If your phosphate is really at .4 instead of .04 or so, I think you should be running GFO along with vodka/MB7 dosing. I think the problems you have seen is from phosphate being reduced too rapidly... the corals are "used" to this level and get somewhat shocked when it is rapidly reduced by the GFO. If I was in this position I would be running a small amount, maybe 1/2 cup, and changing it out pretty regularly until my levels dropped. I respectfully disagree that phosphate will be released from the GFO, especially at these high levels of phosphate. I regenerate my GFO and it takes a VERY strong base such as sodium hydroxide to get the phosphate to release from the iron and go back into solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael7979 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 But if GFO was left in the system too long it would leach back out. Or am I wrong? This is something I have believed for quite some time and I knoe LFS say it too. I just do not know what "too long" really is. But I have never left GFO in for more then 2-3 weeks. So I guess what I'm asking is how long did Frank use it for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Phosphate is very tightly bound to the GFO and I wouldnt worry too much about it leaching back into the system in any appreciable quantity. You will lose most benefits from GFO after awhile from alk binding and bacteria growth. Most chemistry experts recommend replacement every 1 month. The great thing about quality GFO is that it can be regenerated and used again and again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grassi Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I agree that Frank should use GFO after knowing how high he is running his tank. I think that his issues with GFO, as also some of you pointed out, were due to a fast drop in Phosphates. It is not the GFO itself, or a specific brand, but it is just the difference between an high and a relatively low level of po4 in a short amount of time. This article from Randy Holmes Farley can be useful to understand the dynamics of the introduction of GFO in a system with high po4: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.php This other article is interesting too. I support the theory of gfo leaching back po4 at some point (when the po4 in the tank are low). This is something that was empirically proved and that can be easily tested. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php "Phosphate bound to GFO surfaces is still available to the water column by exchange, so the sequestering is temporary rather than permanent. This fact is known in the literature, and can be shown experimentally. I will show the detail in upcoming articles, but it can easily be demonstrated by adsorbing phosphate onto GFO, and adding enough so that a detectable concentration of phosphate (say, 0.1 to 1 ppm) is in equilibrium with the solids. Then remove the solid GFO and add it to seawater with no detectable phosphate. The now-detectable phosphate in the new seawater shows that the phosphate can be released from the GFO media when the aquarium's phosphate concentration drops low enough." I'm not saying that GFO is bad. I use it myself. But it is not a magic powder that you throw in a reactor and it will do the job. You have to know what you are doing and monitor the results. Otherwise the side effects can be worst that the benefits. What I suggest to Frank at this point is to gradually get rid of the po4 with water changes. You don't need GFO for that. With water changes you can measure how much you are lowering it. Before to do that, you have to be sure that you are not introducing more po4 into your system. Fortunately, there are just a few ways to introduce po4 in a reef tank: water source and food being the greatest part of it and easily controllable. Once you are down to acceptable levels, start with some GFO. Start slow and go up. This is necessary because your live rock will take some time to leach back the po4 accumulated. When you are low, stop using it and control the phosphate added to the tank. Water changes and the filtration system will do the rest. Keep testing during this period of time and keep in mind that Po4 levels varies a lot during the day, being low in the morning and going up (also, but not only, for the feeding). BTW: we are all discussing and giving suggestions to how to run a tank which is looking GREAT as colors and growth. Keep the high po4 Frank! Who cares, it works for you I hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grassi Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Out of topic: Mike, do you regenerate carbon too? I would like to have some advices on regenerating GFO. That thing is expensive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Out of topic: Mike, do you regenerate carbon too? I would like to have some advices on regenerating GFO. That thing is expensive No, from what I've heard you need need to "cook" carbon at a really high temp in order to regen.... the electricity cost would offset any savings IMO. I see you on RC, take a look at the regenerating GFO thread, its a good read http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1734717&highlight=gfo basically you soak the gfo in a 1m NaOH solution for a day and rinse, resoak if desired and whala new GFO! Some people presoak with vinegar or dilute muriatic acid to wash away any alk precipitate ( I seem to get alot on my GFO) prior to the NaOH solution. Others have made recirculating wash systems to help the media regen... I just stir and shake every once in awhile People report that the "normal" GFO can turn to a "mush" if left in the solution too long. Many are using the BRS high capaicity GFO that is really hard and washes very well. I have washed mine several times now and it is still working great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electrokate Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Kate, it looks like a nice idea. Let's do it not this time, but for the april meeting. I want to get some good reagents for my photometer first Sounds good to me, I broke one of the glass vials! Figures... One of the reasons someone might choose the digital over the liquid test is that color vision varies from person to person, and men are statistically more likely to suffer from some degree of color blindness, and this is a hobby statistically likely to be populated by men. Kate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 So here is a update... Have been running some GFO in the tank. This time I ran far less than I did last time. 24 hours later down to .22 not were I need to be but is slowly going down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 at those numbers the gfo will exhaust pretty quickly, change it out as soon as you see it has stopped dropping or is going up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 Will do thanks for the heads up.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandinga Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 +1 on changing it out sooner with those high of levels. Frank, having been over to your pad a couple times recently, I have noticed your fish looking quite plump...and your Blonde Naso's take some of the most enormous dumps I have seen any fish take. I want to get him a newspaper to read or something... I did have a point... Are you overfeeding? Underskimming? For your phosphates being so high, it's amazing how good your corals look. I have noticed though, that like most things, not everything is affected by high phosphates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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