NP Biopellets...here we go!!

[coralreefer]

OK....as many of you know, I've been a vodka-sugar-vinegar + bacteria advocate for some time...last year it brought my nitrates and phosphates to zero after years of trying...however, the hair algae was persistent due to prior sins...tank was originally FOWLR...sand/rock impregnanted with PO4 and NO3...THUS...the tear down/rebuild...

 

Anyway, I am using GFO/carbon with intermittant bacteria...no VSV currently...I am interested in trying NP Biopellets...considered "solid vodka", these pellets are placed in an area of decent flow/oxygenation, bacteria colonizes the surface, feeding corals while reducing nitrates/phosphates, with the excess being skimmed out. Works very similarly to liquid carbon dosing except 1) no problems figuring out dosing regiment 2) no chance of over dosing 3) no schedule to keep 4) doesn't promote cyano

 

A great choice for newer tanks to prevent accumulation of nutrients, but allows for greater feeding frequency/amounts to fish and/or corals...

 

Can be placed in any reactor or sump...additions are made very 6 months or so as media is used up.

 

Trade off is cost...comes in 500 ml and 1L bags...1L runs about $100 and will run 150 gallon tank for 9-12 months...

 

Most people report clearer water immediately with improved polyp extension (which I need) and color enhancement within 3-4 weeks.

 

Sounds like something I could benefit from and I have an extra TLF reactor so...here we go...

 

PS...I have photos of new setup, just trying to sit down for 20 minutes and follow CA2ORs directions as to how to get photos off DROID and onto this site...

 

then I can post later pics and verify improvements if any...(rock2)

 

DrMerle

[Emerald525]

I would be curious to know the downside! Are there any negative/harmful possible effects of doing this?

 

Thanks for posting. I find this topic fascinating!

[coralreefer]

Time will tell on the downside, but I can tell you nothing "feels" crazier than adding vodka and/or sugar to a fish tank the first few times....I am following a lengthy thread on Reef Central and watching what happens as others ahead of me use this product...so far no negatives...just mild to moderate positives...

 

DrMerle

[rgrcrain]

So it takes a reactor, or do you just put it in a filter baggie?

[coralreefer]

It does NOT take a reactor...a mesh baggie is fine...needs decent flow to establish aerobic bacteria...need to prevent anaerobic bacteria...near outflow of skimmer is great area, sump under overflow...splashing water, etc...

 

DrMerle

[steveweast]

They reportedly work best in a fluidized situation....meaning a need for a reactor. They tend to clump when not fluidized reducing effectiveness. I run 4L in a highly fluidized reactor on my cold system. You also need to remove all sponges from the reactor.....the sponges tend to clog quickly from bacteria.

[undrtkr_00]

What would happen if you ran these w/o a skimmer?

[steveweast]

The general idea is similar to vodka dosing.....feed the bacteria.....who sequester N & P.....who die.....and get skimmed out. By not removing the bacteria, you just cycle N & P instead of removing N & P. It's analogous to growing cheato in a fuge, only more effective. The benefit of the pellets over liquid dosing is less effort with pellets....along with not having to treat the entire water column with vodka. When running pellets or vodka, the slimmate increases quite a bit from the bacterial die-off. This is why you remove the sponges in the reactor....they get choked quite quickly.

[madmike]

Steve are you running the np pellets? I see that now a few more companies have jumped on the bandwagon like warner marine, any word on there effectiveness?

[steveweast]

I am running them. It will be interesting to see their effectiveness in a cold environment....but, vodka worked and I expect the pellets will too. There are several companies jumping on the bandwagon as happened when Deltec came out with ROWA (GFO) a few years ago. Prices should drop when they all come online.

[coralreefer]

Steve---please answer:

 

1) How big is your system?

2) How long have you been using them?

3) What are your PO4/NO3 levels?

4) How did you calculate how much to use?

5) What changes have you observed?

 

DrMerle

[Kshack]

DR.,

 

I noticed this..."I am using GFO/carbon with intermittant bacteria".. and had some thoughts.... might be wrong.

Bacteria need a source for C, N, and P. We dose C (vodka, suger, etc) because the bacteria are carbon limited and will not reduce N and P if not allowed to grow. If you use GFO, will you not be P limited and thus the bacteria will not grow, and thus N will remain high?

I am sure someone out there knows the exact ratios of C-N-P, but if P is low and N is high, how can adding C work?

Steve...any thoughts?

 

Ken

[coralreefer]

Ken--

 

You raise some very good points...what you are describing is called the Redfield ratio, simply stated, over limiting one nutrient will reduce effectiveness of reducing the other nutrient (PO4--NO3), as they are proportionally removed by bacteria.

 

The latest information I have concerning NP Biopellets is they are more effective at N03 reduction than PO4, and additional PO4 removal MAY be beneficial...thus GFO...

 

My proposed approach may be off, but I would prefer to stay ahead of curve as long as possible until I see I'm headed down the wrong road...

 

I am interested in 1) maximal tank/coral/fish health while 2) keeping maintenance time (i.e. vodka dosing) to a minimum.

 

Good discussion here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1738775&highlight=redfield+ratio

 

DrMerle

[steveweast]

I have only been using the pellets for a month now. I upgraded my cold system to 400 gals. When I switched over, my nitrates began to climb and reached 20ppm (vodka had kept the old system at zero NO3). Within the last week, the nitrate level has begun to level off and slightly drop (I may need more pellets). I still have to use GFO to help with PO4 though. The mass feedings create huge P inputs. Every system is different....but, most still have to use a limited amount of GFO to keep P low. You have to remember, in a cold system with native granite rock, I get no natural dentrification anywhere in my tank. Carbon dosing in some form is mandatory for me. My system would not be an example to base your usage upon because of the cold water, massive feedings, and no live rock.

[steveweast]

DR.,

 

I noticed this..."I am using GFO/carbon with intermittant bacteria".. and had some thoughts.... might be wrong.

Bacteria need a source for C, N, and P. We dose C (vodka, suger, etc) because the bacteria are carbon limited and will not reduce N and P if not allowed to grow. If you use GFO, will you not be P limited and thus the bacteria will not grow, and thus N will remain high?

I am sure someone out there knows the exact ratios of C-N-P, but if P is low and N is high, how can adding C work?

Steve...any thoughts?

 

Ken

 

I know a few folks who do have N issues and dose P to keep both values low......and conversely some who have P issues and add N. Every system is different by how it is run, what is being kept, and how much food is added......so, every system has to find its own sweet spot for how much GFO/pellets/additives etc to use. Label instructions are pretty much useless.

 

I will say though....the one thing good about the pellets is that you can't use too much....only too little (unlike vodka or sugar).

[dsoz]

I believe that I read somewhere that bacteria use 16 nitrate for every 1 phosphate. Therefore, a little phosphate in the water will still work on reducing a lot of nitrate.

 

GFO is still a useful tool in the fight to keep nutrients down.

 

dsoz

[coralreefer]

Update--1) I spent the last 4 days reading the Reef Central Thread of the Month (1700 posts) on NP Biopellets 2) I started Biopellets in my tank over the weekend--I will try and condense what I see and what I read...

 

I placed 500 ml of NP Biopellets in my sump, in TLF reactor with MaxiJet 900 fluidizing pellets...from all the videos I've seen, this combination (I lucked out) created the perfect tumbling rolling motion to the pellets--critical.

 

I innoculated the pellets with Microbacter 7 and Zeobac and continue to do so every other day so far--not critical.

 

I drip kalk and pH is stable during day 8.0-8.2 and at night rarely drops below 7.9-8.0. Within 2 hours of starting the pellets, pH dropped to 7.7 and stayed there for 4-6 hours before gradually rising back to normal range. No cloudiness was noted. NOTE--A healthy, eating fat Ornate Christmas Wrasse I had had for 8 days developed respiratory distress and was dead later that day. No other fish developed any issues and I cannot say with assurity that the pellets caused his demise, but obviously seems so. Bacteria clouds and pH drops have been reported with use of these pellets and is often heavy nutrient related (high nitrates/high phosphates)...the higher the nutrient level, the worse the reaction COULD be.

 

The next day, my water seemed unbelievable clear and clean (almost uniform result of pellet use). Another very common response related is increased polyp extension and improved color of fish and corals...usually noted by week 2-3. I have not seen that yet.

 

Prior to starting pellets, my phosphates had been zero/nitrates between zero and 5...alkalinity steady at 11, pH 8.1, temp 78, Ca 450, MG 1350...I am starting the pellets to prevent live rock absorption of excess phosphates/nitrates...I am also doing 10% water changes once weekly and running GFO/carbon in a separate TLF reactor. I am running a modified MSX200 skimmer with Bubble Blaster 3000 pump.

 

Summarizing threads from Reef Central--1) 2 other people had wrasses die after starting biopellets 2) contrary to what I had posted earlier, this product should be run in a reactor with adequate flow to cause a gentle tumbling rolling action 3) too many pellets initially or too low flow causes an increase in breakdown of pellets and cyano outbreak 4) too many pellets and too high flow can trigger bacterial bloom.

 

I would suggest positive comments versus negative comments came in at 8:2 ratio...it also appeared that negative situations were correctable in most cases and pellets have difficulty bringing down nitrates from greater than 80 and above. Appears that nitrates at 20-30- pellets had no trouble reducing to 5 or less.

 

Outflow tube positioned at intake of skimmer provided best results.

 

Positive points...1) Nitrate reduction

2) Obvious increase in water clarity

3) Difficult to overdose

4) Drastic reduction in maintenance required

5) New pellets added as old ones as used up

6) Moderate phosphate reduction

 

Negative points...1) gauging quantity of pellets needed

2) getting flow correct

3) reactor and pump strongly suggested

4) initial high cost of pellets

5) bacterial bloom/low oxygen reaction exists

 

Because nitrate reduction with these pellets is greater than phosphate reduction many posters were running GFO simultaneously with pellets and also it seems a few were weaning their systems off GFO because of pellet benefits.

 

My overall impression (and one poster impressed with this point) that this process COULD simulate ZEOvit process, without all the expensive additives.

Allowing for a lower nutrient system while increasing alkalinity COULD spur great, impressive coral growth without shelves of additives and rigorous dosing schedules.

 

Bottom line is we don't know yet how this will prove itself...I am loving my tank right now, mostly because I am able to sit and look without CONSTANTLY having to do maintenance. These biopellets may also take things to the next level...only time will tell...

 

DrMerle

[Emerald525]

Very interesting thanks for the update. I have to admit that the death of your wrasse has me a little worried.(scary) I have 3 wrasses in my reef tank that I have grown very fond of.

[undrtkr_00]

Cool keep us posted.

 

Interesting that wrasses would be particularly effected by this. Any theories as to why, Mr. Veterinarian?

[coralreefer]

As any good noncommital scientist will tell you, we cannot with assurity blame the wrasses deaths on the biopellets...however, seems logical at this point to do so...

 

As a veterinarian, it find it interesting that only wrasses have been mentioned. What occurs (sometimes) when these pellets are introduced? Well, it has been noted that a quick bacteria proliferation can occur, sometimes in just a few hours. Well, what then happens? Well, a drop in pH can occur due to a drop in oxygen. Well, that could explain the resp distress of the wrasses, but wouldn't that occur to all fish? Why are wrasses different? How are they different? Well, certainly some wrasses bury themselves in the sand for rest or to elude predators or stress...yes. And, does anyone wonder how they can breathe and not suffocate under that sand, when most certainly anoxia must exist where they are?

 

Well, if they can glean oxygen from under the sand in low oxygen conditions, shouldn't they be able to better survive low oxygen conditions out in the tank, say better than angelfish or tangs? I would think so...unless they are now in an environment that is different, say more acidic???

 

I don't know...all I can come up with is the lowered pH effects wrasses more due to a difference in respiration...perhaps their body mucus is different, allowing them to obtain oxygen under the sand but condemning them to death should low oxygen and low pH occur simultaneously.

 

You tell me...you are of course, THE UNDRTKER!!!!

 

DrMerle

[undrtkr_00]

 

You tell me...you are of course, THE UNDRTKER!!!!

 

DrMerle

 

LOL!!

 

I don't have the first clue, that's why I asked you! Thanks for your thoughts. Of course, I understand that it may all just be coincidence that wrasses in particular have been noted, but it roused my curiosity.

 

I'll be very interested to hear updates on this process from you.

[dsoz]

Well' date=' a drop in pH can occur due to a drop in oxygen. [/quote']

 

Maybe not BECAUSE the drop in oxygen. The drop in oxygen is probably not the cause of the drop in pH. But it probably coincides with an increase of carbon dioxide, which would drop the pH. This may need an airstone to deliver oxygen in the first day or so of use.

 

I know when I first started dosing sugar I got a bacterial bloom that killed off a fox-face rabbit fish, a yellow tang, and a cleaner shrimp in my tank. I did not measure the pH.

 

After a while, I stopped dosing sugar (I kept forgetting to do it), and then I added the large dose that I had worked up to and got another bacterial bloom. The second time I added an air pump line to the bottom of one of my powerheads creating millions of microbubbles. The upside is that everything lived and the bacterial bloom ran its course.

 

dsoz

[gawf4fun]

Thanks for starting this thread and for the comments put forth so far.

 

I starting running the NPX pellets a week ago after a 45 gallon water change in my 180 mixed reef tank, particularly due to a stubborn nitrate level of about 30 ppm which I have been unable to reduce through vodka dosing (keep forgetting to add). I also have a nominal break out of hair algae which I have been working to restrain.

 

As several here and at Reef Central suggested, my reactor output goes to my Deltec skimmer water feed. I started with about 2/3 of the bag of 550 ml, or about 350 ml. I did not remove the sponges as Steve Weast suggests, but will do when I add the balance of 200 ml of pellets this weekend.

 

Thus far, I have seen no negative reaction from my tank inhabitants, which include a large wrasse. I have recognized a decidedly clearer tank however, as well as a "percieved increase" in both polyp extension and coloration of corals, particularly my acans. Whether this is due to the pellets, the water change, or my mental desire to have these pellets transform my tank, I don't know, but so far so good.

 

I'm looking forward to my test results this weekend and the addition of the balance of the pellets to my reactor.

 

Mark

[moto826]

I jest got some of this too but won't get it till Tuesday as my kid has baseball in kelso this weekend

[TheGooseWhisperer]

Any longterm updates to this thread?