siskiou Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Apart from low Alk, I'm also looking at a high pH (today the highest was 8.65). Again, this is in both tanks, and a new development. I've always topped off with kalkwasser, and my pH would never go above 8.3-4, but it's been steadily climbing. I used to dose Randy's recipe 1, but have now switched to recipe 2, for high pH. Could this be do to having fans running in the windows to cool down the house? Too much fresh air and not enough CO2? I've double checked the pH with a test, in case the probe is off, but it confirms it. Apart from no kalkwasser anymore, and having vinegar or seltzer on hand, what are my options, and what could be the reasons for the pH to change? I hate constantly doctoring with the chemistry! My corals don't seem to mind the change so far, since it's been creeping up slowly, but it's about at the upper safety limit now, in the evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Allen Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I disagree with doctoring unless it is a last restort or to keep things in check while you find the problem. I can't imagine too much fresh air raising pH that much. I used to have the opposite problem with a pretty tight house and the pH would drop when the windows were closed and rise when they were open. So, just to be sure you can test by closing up the house or at least the room where the tank/sump resides to see if there is a change. Can you provide readings on everything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsoz Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Do you run a skimmer? If you do, that should bring the CO2 into equilibrium with the air that you use. I have heard of people running airlines to the outside into the skimmer to add the fresh air. I don't think that too much fresh air is the problem. Again, how are you testing? How old are the test kits? If you use a pH probe, when was it last calibrated? Is there someone close to you that can double check with their test kits? #1 Stop dosing. Something is going wrong with what is going into the tank. #2 Try a large (20%) water change, wait 36-48 hours, then do another large change. See if this brings your tank into order. Also, it will help replenish those things that you are trying to dose. Maybe give it another 36-48 hours and repeat. Try to get as much "crud" out of the tank as possible. I will often stir up the sand bed while I am removing water to remove some of the particulate matter (not too much, only a small area and not very deep into that area). If the sand looks black underneath, stop doing it and leave the sand alone. There is a possibility of releasing hydrogen sulfide gas (rotten egg odor). #3 Keep testing. Take a water sample into the fish store to see if they can match your numbers. Good luck. As long as the coral look happy, then you are not too far off. dsoz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siskiou Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 I can't close up the house, or we humans and the tanks will be way too hot (thanks are both in the living room)! Our house warms up very quickly, whenever the sun is shining. Readings: both tanks have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites and refugiums with 24hr lighting. 120G: 0 nitrates, pH 8.45-8.65 alk 8 (but falls quickly to 6/7 when I'm not dosing Alk twice daily) phosphates 0 1.026 SG Calcium 440 Magnesium 1350 Temp 78-79 UV sterilizer (trying to beat slime algae on the sand) up until yesterday running GFO via reactor Sulfur denitrator 60G: 10ppm nitrates pH 8.4-8.65 Alk 8 (see above for falling alk) 1.026 SG Calcium 420 Magnesium 1300 phosphates 0 Temp 78-79.5 running GFO in filter bag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowman Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I think Dennis is on the right track. I would drop my SG to 1.025 or 1.024, I like to keep mine in that area. How long since your last water change? Did you change salt? Have you contacted the maker of the salt to see if they changed buffers or any chemical additives in their formula? Does the alk drop lower than that if you don't dose? You may try to change the lighting period of your refugiums to opposite of your tank. Don't do too much at once and test, test, test Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downhill_biker Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I have to say not to worry too much. 8.6 pH is nothing to get bent out of shape over. Mine was consistantly around this mark for a long time, and my corals looked their best. Randy Holmes-Farley told me not to worry about it unless it was approaching 9.0, and even then you just want to bring it down below 9.0 and let the rest do whatever it is going to do, naturally. Dont stress too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siskiou Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 Do you run a skimmer? Yes, I have a skimmer on each tank. Again, how are you testing? How old are the test kits? If you use a pH probe, when was it last calibrated? Is there someone close to you that can double check with their test kits? ph probe, calibrated last week. Double checked with Red Sea test, about 9 months old. Just checked it again with my 7 and 9 pH calibration fluids, and it's right on the money. I'll take some water to Aquaserene tomorrow. I have two different Alk tests, and doubt they are both wrong, but anything is possible. #1 Stop dosing. Something is going wrong with what is going into the tank. Okay. #2 Try a large (20%) water change, wait 36-48 hours, then do another large change. See if this brings your tank into order. Also, it will help replenish those things that you are trying to dose. Maybe give it another 36-48 hours and repeat. Try to get as much "crud" out of the tank as possible. I just did waterchanges on both tanks today (I usually do one every Monday and Friday) and I try and get as much crud out as possible. I syphon up the slime patches during the water change. Will do another change in a couple of days. Good luck. As long as the coral look happy, then you are not too far off. dsoz Thanks! I'll update after I take water for testing to the LFS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siskiou Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 I think Dennis is on the right track. I would drop my SG to 1.025 or 1.024' date=' I like to keep mine in that area. [/quote'] I've always read that most sps prefer a slightly higher SG. Is that not the case? The batch of fresh saltwater mixed to 1.026 has a pH of 8.4 (just tested) and Alk is 11. I know that the sulfur denitrator depresses the ALK, but that doesn't explain it happening in the 60G. There is a possibility of the GFO depressing Alk, too (found that out in another thread). How long since your last water change? Did you change salt? Have you contacted the maker of the salt to see if they changed buffers or any chemical additives in their formula? Last water change this morning, and I do one at least once a week, mostly twice. No salt change. Have been using Reef Crystals for about 2 years now. I haven't contacted the maker of the salt. Does the alk drop lower than that if you don't dose? I'm not totally sure, but possibly it stops at 6 dkh. I haven't let it go any further. Should I try? You may try to change the lighting period of your refugiums to opposite of your tank. Don't do too much at once and test, test, test Will change the fuge lighting to only nights and I'm definitely testing left, right and center lately! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siskiou Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 I have to say not to worry too much. 8.6 pH is nothing to get bent out of shape over. Mine was consistantly around this mark for a long time' date=' and my corals looked their best. Randy Holmes-Farley told me not to worry about it unless it was approaching 9.0, and even then you just want to bring it down below 9.0 and let the rest do whatever it is going to do, naturally. Dont stress too much.[/quote'] Thanks! That makes me feel better! It's just so odd to have to battle *high* pH for a change! Used to be the opposite! (nutty) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowman Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I wouldn't try to drop you alk any lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowman Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 What kind of substrate do you have in your tanks and refugiums? I keep my SG at those levels, closer to 1.025. If you are having success with where your levels are, don't change anything. I have found that my reef fish like it better if the SG is around 1.0245 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siskiou Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 What kind of substrate do you have in your tanks and refugiums? Both tanks have about 1.5-2" of sand. Fine in the 120, slightly coarser in the 60G. The sumps have rock rubble and a few larger pieces of rock, plus cheato, and a deeper sand bed in a separate area of the sump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siskiou Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 I wouldn't try to drop you alk any lower. So, I shouldn't try and find out if it would drop any lower without dosing Randy's recipe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsoz Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Try stopping the sulfur denitrator for a week or so. I would think that it would be fine for a week... but I am not an expert on them. I would stop dosing all together for a little while. See what happens. If the alk gets too low, add a little baking soda (without the calcium part to see what happens). You calcium looks fine, so just focus on alk for a little while. Unless the calcium starts to drop too. dsoz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I'm with Curtis i'd let everything keep running as is. If it creeps up to 8.8-8.9 then do something but 8.65 isn't something to worry over IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undrtkr_00 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I get a pretty serious pH boost from kalkwasser, so I do some calcium dosing with kalk and some with calcium chloride. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Is it possible that with the higher temps, your evaporation rate has increased? If so, you'll be dosing more kalk to keep up with the loss and increasing your pH accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siskiou Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 You know, there might just be more evaporation! Though I stopped dosing Kalkwasser in the 120G several days ago, and am topping off straight RO/DI water by hand, and the pH is still at 8.69 right now. I took a sample to the LFS, and they confirm the Alk and pH measurements, though I can never really tell with the pH kit when looking at the colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 pH that high without supplementation seems odd. Do you know anyone with an electronic tester you could borrow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael7979 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Speaking of baking soda. What is the reccomended dosage? (i.e. - 1 tsp. to every 20g of water) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael7979 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Nevermind. Forgot I had this page. http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tidalsculpin Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I do not know if you read this yet Suzanne but it might help you to problem solve in a systematic way. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php Randy appears to think a lot of aeration is the most least aversive way to solve the problem. Have you tried a nice strong air pump into an airstone yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siskiou Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 I read this article a few days ago, and have dug out a couple of air pumps, one for each tank. Not sure if they are strong enough, but I'm giving it a try! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siskiou Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 I get a pretty serious pH boost from kalkwasser' date=' so I do some calcium dosing with kalk and some with calcium chloride. Just a thought.[/quote'] Sorry, totally overlooked this earlier! Yes, that's what I've been doing, too! Before I started getting more sps corals, the kalkwasser was all I needed, and I didn't have any issues with high pH or low Alk then. I started dosing calcium and alk in addition to the kalkwasser about 5 months ago, and at first had to use recipe 1, since my pH never went above 8.35. It's only been recently that the pH slowly kept getting higher and at first I thought my probe was drifting, but I calibrated it, and it reads the calibration fluid pH just right. And the Alk is headed the other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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