Piero

I sure would like more info on this setup behind the scenes, and how on earth does he reach the bottom every time he has to fiddle with something?! LINK

DHCF The owner of that operation is "Thales" the industry forum moderator over at reefs.org.

heard that Ron. I consider 12 dollars a rather significant difference on that price point level, especially when you can click a mouse and save time, effort, fuel, etc. I tend to give locals the opportunity to match an online price though.

rofl! indeed. overheard, "is that a 20-foot tall phallus monument on your shoulders, or are you just happy to see me?"

I asked the admin to do some thread surgery and extract the trade reform party from the Livestock Suppliers List for obvious reasons. Here's the new link to the trade reform thread. It's a familiar but interesting discussion and informative regarding the history of sustainability efforts in the trade.

good article!

I see what Joel is observing but am interpreting it a bit differently. I suspect that the seemingly small 1" movement is actually an indicator of a large amount of total water body movement...large volume can create such a seemingly "small" movement i think because it is in the form of a surge and not a steady stream. Although I would not currently justify the space for these things inside a tank over a CL, I do suspect that they are effective at keeping particulate suspended. And certainly they are a very interesting area of advancement in the trade. Steve W. is much better with fuild dynamics....maybe he'll speak up....but it is my understanding that a seemingly small 1" of movement is actually indicating a huge overall shift in the water column...idunno.

yep, what PT said....especially in this hobby, when in doubt....it's a gimmick not worth your money. Skip it and keep things simple, save your money. Every reefkeeping product begs the question: What is the intended purpose specifically? Can that goal - whether biological, physical, or chemical - be obtained easily and efficiently through simple more affordable methods? most of the time the answer is a resounding YES. And I'd also skip that whole "ecosystems" gimmick too with that mudd....save your money again. Skimmer, reactors, water changes...and yer golden. A sump just needs to act as a simple reservoir from which you pull water for equipment, namely skimmers and reactors. And sumps do not need high flow if you deal with circulation through other methods. speaking of which....in the interest of building equipment, what is the minimum tools needed to work with acrylic effectively? router, dremmel, saw, clamps, levels, sander for polishing...spose you also need a routing table for accurate cutting and maybe a table saw? just wonderin'

oh c'mon now... huh? where did I say that? Randy I think I sense an eagerness to find fault, but I have not actually contributed to that particular discussion, so you may be jumpin' the gun a bit. I may still provide legitimate opportunities in the future for you to reiterate your distaste for my approach, but have patience. I was just pointing out some interesting discussion, i haven't even participated. Besides, the industry forum is often full of intense reform debate, most of which has nothing to do with me, so I'm confused by your intentions. I am sorry for being a source of annoyance for you in the past with shock-value statements. All I can do is acknowledge a faulty approach and change. But I don't know if going out of context to beat that horse moving forward is really necessary. I'm hoping that we all have the same end goals in mind, which is among other things, a more responsible and sustainable trade in the future. now we need a mood cleanser, kind of like a mid-dinner champagne sorbet refreshes the palate. I know...how about....a Japanese Phallus Festival! Hope everyone has a happy and safe new years.

well my livestock supplier thread has turned into another trade reform debate....I'm stayin out of this round, but it's still interesting. I like the 'we have the recipe bu the cooks don't know how to cook" metaphore. LINK "Steve has explained the situation in Bali. The MAMTI program has failed in both the Philippines and in Indonesia. One might ask whether they ever intended to do it right, or whether their trainers are incompetent? I don't see that firing most of the PI field staff has helped improve anything. There are genuine net-collectors trained by Hariibon, the IMA, Ferdinand and Steve. Many continue to use nets, but are not MAC-Certified. It is not clear how the underwater surveys by ReefCheck tie in with the MAC Certification program. At this point, I am not holding my breath expecting to see improvements by MAMTI staff associated with the MAC, ReefCheck, and/or CCIF. I am told they do not even get along with themselves. There are several small groups of true reformists associated with the East Asian Seas and Terrestrial Initiatives (EASTI) in the Philippines and with Telapak in Indonesia. They merit our support. If you wish to send them donations, send me a PM. If you are too jaded to respond or see this as some kind of ploy I understand. The NA trade (importers and retail stores) has never done much to help. However, I have clients who are willing to pay a little more and they are getting net-caught PI and Indo fishes. It is possible for others to order fish as well. I agree with Steve that we cannot expect much help from funding agencies. Ferdinand has a grant that is supporting the mariculture program in PI. We can expect the cultured fish to become available in the coming year. We also need to support integrated programs that work with the communities, the collectors, and local governments to ensure sustainable collection with nets, underwater surveys, the creation of Coastal Resource Management Plans (CRMP) and other aspects of the CBUGS program. Funding is still needed for this from doners. In the mean time, the trade should support EASTI and Telapak. These are the genuine reform groups who are working closely with the collectors (such as the villagers in Les) to make their lives a little better while trying to ensure the long-term sustainability of the trade. Even if it costs a little more, we need to support their efforts when making decisions on whether to order net-caught or to buy from other PI or Indo suppliers (many listed previously) that export cyanide-caught MAF." Peter Rubec

oops, not DIY...called Reef Ceramics. http://www.captiveoceans.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CO&Category_Code=Outcropping wonder how they achieve that look...maybe really thick compound that they work with?

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=783816&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

Peter later said: "There is still almost no supply of MAC-Certified fish. " If anyone is claiming to have certified fish, I would be very skeptical based on what I've heard. Sounds like people are just claiming fish are certified when they are not. No controls, no verification, no testing. wonderful. all the tuna is dolphin safe, right? :P

This is very disheartening. This trade has a LONG way to go. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The following is part of an email Dr. Peter Rubec recently received from Ferdinand Cruz after he visited the village of Les in northern Island of Bali. taken from the Livestock Supplier List Thread Peter Rubec From Ferdinand Cruz: Although the pumping of water into the system of the facility in LES that has shut down for two months was no problem. It is things happening here that really makes me almost feel that maybe it is hopeless to do what is right. Sometimes I feel it better to give up and forget the whole crusade. I am seeing again what happened in the Philippines unfolding here in a bigger and more terrible way. Indonesia has more collectors and more exporters than Philippines ten times over. Everybody even the government in Bali is caught up and riding the band wagon of certifying the collectors and middlemen. GREAT IF IT IS A TRUE CERTIFICATION THAT BRING REAL CHANGE! GREAT IF IT STOPS THE USE OF CYANIDE! GREAT IF FISH ARE HANDLED PROPERLY! BUT IT IS NOT!!! NOW THEY WANT TO DO THE BEST PRACTICES IN CORALS??!!! THE BIGGEST GREENWASHING EVER IS HAPPENING HERE!!!! It is like the spoke of a wheel that is centered in Bali trying to extend outwards. Although they stop short of certifying exporters and claim them to be 100% clean it would come soon and in the very near future. The ground for the "great SCAM" is being prepared. When before collectors using illegal methods had to be very careful now under the card of certification they can do almost anything. While before collectors had to be very careful now they are covered as if with immunity. The destruction before was huge that is why it takes the Balinese collectors more than 3 to 5 days to reach a good collecting site at big expense. Now they can destroy these sites under the banner of certification. Another two years and it will take 10 to 15 days of travel to good collecting sites if this is not stopped. Here when a fisherman is certified they can fish wherever that want and would not be bothered. I recently witnessed what is happening here and it is pathetic. So much money to spend and spent yet nothing really right is coming out of it. It has only driven the use of cyanide in this trade deeper underground. I started suspecting something was wrong when the fishes that were coming into the facility of LES from outside at the start were dying like flies. It also included fish I know are not caught by cyanide. Even the beautiful Banggai Cardinals were literally dropping one after another in front of my eyes. So I requested the head of the facility to drive me over to the area where these fishes are landed and process by middlemen. Arriving there I chose the fishes I wanted to bring back including 60 Banggai Cardinals and befriended the middleman. Winning his trust we talked about some species that are hard to catch by net. He admitted that his collectors can never catch some certain species with the use of nets and yet they bring them in I started probing him on his fishing trips. I was told it takes his boat an average of 20 days for one fishing trip. 5 days to go to the site and 5 days in sailing back. During the whole trip the fishes do not eat. He jokingly said that it was like the Muslims "Pu asa" or fasting. Mostly he sends his boat to Sulawesi to fish so that he does not lose on his investments or capital outlay for a trip. I asked him how he can guarantee the return of his operational capital and earn a decent profit from it. The amount he puts out for his boat and 18 collectors for one trip is usually $3, 800.00 and here that is a princely sum. He admitted that his collectors have to bring a "little" (note he emphasize a little) poison or cyanide. A kilo of cyanide in Rupiah is 60,000.00 or $ 6.70 a bit higher than the price in the Philippines but that is his insurance for the money he puts out on a collecting trip. I asked if he was certified and he said yes and all his 18 collectors which make it easier for his boat to go wherever they want to fish. It also gives him the space in avoiding being hassled in Bali. They were trained haphazardly in collecting and handling fish in a very impractical manner that even to follow and stick with this kind of training is according to him hard. In short the nets of his collectors are for "display only" and for easy to catch fish if they do not feel lazy in using it. Common sense will dictate that it is natural for a collector to squeeze a squeeze bottle than spread the net and chase the fish into it. Without out rightly saying it he finds the certification card a convenient vehicle and means to achieve what he wants under the noses of the authorities. Flag waving the certification card is an "in thing" here. So who is fooling who? It would be dumb if the certification body does not know what is going on. It must be deliberate in their part in turning their heads the other way with what is really happening as long as the numbers are there for them to claim as certified.

I just don't know how anyone can think this seems like a good approach to water chemistry control. The delivery method of this product alone should be a huge warning sign to any hobbyist. just me.

If you don't like the plug or disk a frag is mounted on...then just remove the frag from the disk or plug before mounting it in your tank.....i know... iknow....crazy talk! :P

This method would probably take only a few minutes, not hours, and will cost almost nothing: http://www.coszam.net/plugs2.htm

I heard that too Dennis. I never bothered to try that stuff myself RG, but that's because everything about it sends up red flags for me. I'm very skeptical. The trade is constantly thinkin' up sly ways to exploit vulnerable hobbyists and push the next miracle mix...or tablet as it were. It makes all these great sounding claims that sound great, but there are no quick fixes as far as i know. Stick with a calcium reactor and water changes and yer golden.

three different methods here: http://www.coszam.net/

you can make those disks and plugs REALLY easily with a bucket filled with sand, frag mix, and something to make depressions in the sand with...baby bottle nipples work for the plugs, and I imagine you can make disk impressions with almost anything with the desired diameter.

paper molds: paper molds method I like this one! Sand molds method

welcome. I love the one where he makes frag plugs by pouring the mix into baby bottle nipples, lol.

yeah, i was impressed. Granted I don't have a workshop with table saws, mitre saws etc, but still great to see it all photographed step-by-step. Spent 30 minutes drooling over power tools at HD tonight because of it too, lol.

some nice DIY work here with picture-bypicture how-to's! Everything from skimmers and reactors to float switches and reef plugs. http://www.coszam.net/