Lowering Nitrates?

[dsoz]

When my phosphates were high, Joel at Waves recommended that I dose sugar. For a 75g with a 10g sump he said to do 1/2 tsp each in the morning and at night for two weeks, then slowly decrease the sugar that is put in. Now I am putting in about 1/2 tsp every 3 or 4 days. My phosphates have dropped, and I cannot detect nitrates.

 

I think that it is worth a try. If you put in too much you may get a bacteria bloom (careful, when the lights are out it may use up all the oxygen in the tank). You could start with 1/4 tsp twice a day, and work up to larger amounts to lower the nitrates, then decrease for maintaining low levels.

 

dsoz

[andy]

dsoz, did you change your skimming approach? Did you notice a change in skimming performance?

 

The sugar/vodka thing is interesting -- it captures the excess nitrogen as biomass, where does the newly excess biomass go?

[Nyles]

These get collected in the skimmer, when I did this methode I noticed my skimmer REALLY going crazy, I had to retune it due to the amount of junk coming in.

[andy]

That's cool, thanks.

[Nyles]

Let me clarify that I think that the sugar makes the foam viscosity thicker and the bubbles don't pop as easily, instead of 1/4" foam expect more like 4" foam, it can get out of hand fast. When I did it I did 2 teaspoons in a 155 every other day and man oh man it went crazy, however I never did see any changes to water quality or skimming capability as far as true waste. I had much better results with Prodibio.

[dsoz]

My skimmer went nuts-o as well. Think of pouring a glass of root-beer, and not letting the foam settle down. I had about 5-6 inches of very dry foam coming out the hole in the lid of my skimmer.

 

The skimmer still kicks into over-drive whenever I add some sugar.

 

I remember back in the early 90's when adding vodka to a tank was supposed to be the cure-all for all the problems. I was too young to drink, so I could not buy vodka, so I did not try it then. Now I am old (or older), I personally think that adding a little sugar is an easy way to make my tank a better place for the animals that I am keeping. The LPS look better, the SPS started growing like crazy, and they are starting to have color return.

 

If you are having trouble with nitrates or phosphates, it never hurts to try a little sugar in the tank every now and then.

 

Protibo may work better, but sugar is still cheaper.

 

dsoz

[Nyles]

ha ha ya, the only difference is the skimmer performance stay the same with prodibio, but it still get great levels

[pledosophy]

Adding sugar is the same idea as adding vodka. Vodka is actually a cleaner source, but really what a waste. IIRC the vodka dosage is 5mL per hundred gallons, so about a shot in a 1000g tank. Could be off it's been awhile since I was into the vodka, sugar is easier and less wasteful.

 

I have never noticed a change in my skimmer while dosing, nor have I ever had a bacterial bloom. JME

 

If your tank does not use a skimmer you have to increase your aeration when using either of these methods.

 

HTH

[kriswaters]

Thanks much for the info. I think I will try the "sugar solution" and see what comes of it.

 

Kris

[dsoz]

Thanks much for the info. I think I will try the "sugar solution" and see what comes of it.

 

Kris

 

Would you please keep a record of your tank parameters while you do this? It would be good documentation, not just anicdotal evidence. Record what your parameters are, what you add, how often you add, and what happens to the parameters over time. Some of us "science geeks" would like to know how it goes. Maybe start a new thread.

 

dsoz

[pledosophy]

Dsoz is some pretty good info out there on carbon feeding. Usually it causes a rise in ammonia, nitrite, and then nitrates follwed by a drop in all three. How fast this occurs seems to be different in every system.

 

Overdoses lead to a cloudy tank. Underdosing has little or no effect.

 

HTH

[kriswaters]

Dsoz.

 

Yes, I will plan on keeping record. I am in the market for a new test kit for pH, nitrites/nitrates and phosphates. I plan also to research the sugar method as well, I am just looking for the time right now! I myself enjoy tracking and keep track of changes.

 

Kris

[kriswaters]

Well, I actually took a little time to do some more research on reef chemistry. There are certainly enough articles/links on vodka or sugar dosing. I think that the hardest part of this hobby is sifting through all of that information!

 

I'd say that 10% (or less) recomend using these methods and the other 90% stated that it was only a quick fix, and that it could lead to potential problems afterwards. Of the 10 or so articles I read, most studies showed that elevated nitrates in the display were not harmful, but equally, not beneficial.

 

Recommendations:

 

1)Husbandry:

a) Feed less

b) dilution is the key to polution (ie water changes)

c) skimming quality

2)Ways to reduce:

a)deep sand bed

b)macro-algae or mangroves

c)live rock

d)denitrator (sulfur based)

 

I know that my nitrates didn't spike over night. I will continue with weekly water changes (perhaps a larger volume say 20-25%), keep my other chemistry in check, look in to a denitrator, try to feed less, and buy some Mangrove plants.

I will see what effect this has on my nitrate levels!

 

Kris

[andy]

I agree with several things you listed, Kris -- one big exception is the effect of high nitrates. LPS and softies in my nano clearly suffer when nitrates top 25ppm. Extended exposure (measured in weeks) would be fatal, IME.

 

Also, IME you'd need a *lot* of macro-algae to have a meaningful effect on pollutants. Mangroves are so slow growing to be effectively useless (they are cool though). IMO, chemical media (GFO and resins) are much more efficient ways to remove pollutants. Water changes even more so.

 

Chaeto has one big advantage over chemical media... you can't raise a population of pods in a PhosBan reactor

[kriswaters]

Andy,

 

So true whith the chaeto advantage. I have a huge ball in my fuge but it doesn't seem to have helped much. The mangroves are cool too, and hopefully over time they will help as well. I am sure that elevated nitrate levels are not healthy for one's tank (I hope I didn't imply that they were-just reiterating information), just as any chemical inbalance is not healthy. The key is to properly finding that balance. Once again, I will thank all that have an opinion and lead others to research and learn!

 

I am sure that my reef tank will be any on going quest to maintain equilibrium!

 

 

Kris

[pledosophy]

I too was quite confused when I started researching this method.

 

I read quite a few articles, the Boreman series had quite a nice arguement against it. There are a few threads on other sites, one of which is pretty long with much input and over a thousand posts.

 

There are a large number of hobbyist who do consider it a band aid and a temporary fix, but by there same logic so is a water change. Like water changes you have to continue to use your carbon of choice and can't just do it once. While I do continue my weekly 30% water changes (you read that right, weekly) I also dose a carbon source weekly. Between having a refugium, getting a skimmer rated for twice my tank, increasing my flow, and doing the weekly 30% water changes I could not keep nitrates at undetectable levels in my 65g system(my 30g is completely different with no skimmer and far less flow but a much larger refugium and requires no work for zero nitrates so tanks our different). My tank is understocked fish wise by most standards, but I have a few corals (10) that I target feed that add to the bioload. Feeding less is not an option for me. My fish have a plenty of room so the "overstocking" really comes from the corals. I just don't want to keep less corals, I plan on adding more. IMO there is no reason to limit the amount of corals I keep in my tank as long as the tank can support them, there is room for them to grow, and they are prospering. If adding a spoonful of sugar a week is going to keep my conditions ideal I really don't see the harm.

 

IME I have been dosing vodka for years. I have never seen an ill effect. I switched to sugar maybe 6 or 7 months ago, no problems I have seen yet.

 

There can be problems with dosing a carbon source. Overdoses can lead to bacterial blooms which can damage fish and corals which may lead to death. Unproper aeration can lead to lower oxygen levels which can be dangerous as well. Then again, overdosing anything can cause problems even water and salt.

 

When reading the opinions of the masses in regards to carbon dosing try to pay some extra attention to those that are doing it, have been for years, and still do it. Yes it is the minority of reefers, but at one time the use of liverock was the minority as well. Back in the day you were told to remove it and bleach it every couple of months to prevent the build up of bacteria. We're moving forward.

 

IME and I do read quite a bit, I have not seen any negative experiences about people dosing carbon who are doing it properly.

 

I've been dosing a carbon source for years, have never had a problem, have no qualms about recommending it.

 

HTH

[kriswaters]

pledosophy,

 

Thanks for your rational, inteligent response. I hate to make any rash decisons on anything with my tank. In the last year I have had my share of failures, and really don't want to make a huge mistake.

 

I have been doing big WC the last three weeks and have seen no relief in the nitrates. My xenia (well one of them) melted down to the point that I removed it for fear of contaminating my tank, and my anenome is not doing well. I don't have the $$$ to buy a denitrator, and not sure I want to hook up another piece of equipment. I have tried to read more and more into it, as I myself am an info junkie! But alas, it is hard trying to find "those" who have used it sucessfully and sort through the mountains of information available.

 

It doesn't seem rational to add more sand to my existing bed. I thought of adding the "miracle mud" in my sump, but again???? I guess I am back at square one. I know I need to lower my nitrates. Feeding less doesn't seem to be an option. I think that I will attempt the sugar or carbon dosing as mentioned. I have searched through many threads and would like to get an exact amount to start dosing with. My tank is 55 gallon and my sump is roughly 20 gallons. Minus space the rock takes up...I guess I am looking at 70-72 gallons of total water.

 

Once I determine the dose I will keep track and provide other members with my results. I have got a hold of my pH, Alk, CA, phosphates, and NH3 and NH4+, now help me out with these pickin' nitrates!

 

Kris

[pledosophy]

I with you on doing things slowly and researching to the umph degree. I spend at least an hour a day reading on sites, and studies so I know enough to know I know pretty much nothing. Bu that's the fun of the hobby.

 

As far as the cost of a denitrator, a DIY one can be made really cheaply. It would cost like $20 including the cost of the media. I used one for a couple years and it worked quite well for me. Basically it was one of those "Pro Fish Acclimators" which is an airline with a hook to hang over the top of the tank and then a valve to control how many drops of water a second. I'm sure you've seen one before. I ran that from the top of the tank down to the sump. In the sump there was a 1 liter bottle (I used Aquafina). I drilled a hole in the top of the bottle ran the hose through so it hit the bottom of the bottle. Then I poked a few holes in the top of the bottle for the water to flow out. Then I filled the bottle with the denitrating media. DIY denitrator done.

 

I used to be a huge fan of Miracle Mud. The LFS I frequented when I lived in California was owned by one of the scientists from Eco System and I have spent many hours chatting with Leng Sy. It's a good product, but IMO it's not the best cure for nitrate. IMO from talking with the EcoSystem heads and using the system myself the calupera had more to do with the lowering of nitrate. JMO

 

On the carbon dosing method. Take it really slow and monitor it. I'd start with a 1/4 teaspoon of sugar in your tank. Give it 24 hours and then see how your doing. If the tank gets white and cloudy then that was too much. If nitrate barely budges it was not enough. Most likely a 1/4 teaspoon is going to be on the light side of dosing. So gradually increase. The goal is to find the amount that is going to drop your nitrate without causing a bacterial bloom that will turn the tank white. Tank white = bad.

 

Every tank is different so IME there is no set amount that is going to work for anyone (i.e. a 100g tank will need 3/4 of a teaspoon to reduce nitrate by 50%). There are just to many factors that are impossible to measure for a set rule like that. As best I can tell factors like the amount of rock, the surface area of the rock, the population of certain bacteria's the amount of flow, the amount of available 02 all play roles. Since we can't really measure these factors then it is best to just go slow and gradually increase.

 

As you go you will get comfortable with a certain amount of sugar and can just dose that regularly. I can dump an entire tablespoon into my tank without an ill effect but that's not a good place to start from.

 

The sugar will lower 02 levels so increasing them by increasing surface agitation is a good practice in my book.

 

Since it can drop 02 levels if you are not running a refugium with inverse lighting then I would dose the carbon source a few hours before lights go on.

 

HTH

[impur]

Are you still doing WCs with the salt thats adding nitrites to your tank????

 

I think you should start here, at the source. Its much easier and has much less risk to just try a different salt for a month. You are talking about doing things that could potentially crash your tank, ie sugar, vodka, denitrator(if not done correctly will cause a serious NO3 spike). All these leave very little room for error. Eliminate the easy things first, then move on to these other things if all else fails. JMO

[kriswaters]

Impur,

 

I plan on switching salts. Pay day is tomorrow I retested the last batch (of saltwater mix) I made and it had 0 nitrites/nitrates in it. Perhaps the first test was contaminated. I also tested my RO/DI water, and again, 0 nitrites/nitrates. I just purchased a new kit and will re-test those again to ensure my water coming in is not the cause.

 

Trust me when I say that I would like to find an alternative to risky methods, but I am not to sure where to go from here. I guess I really worry about the negative effects the nitrates are having on my livestock. Could it be a coincidence that the xenia and an anenome are failing? Most everything else look pretty good...

 

Again, I am not into "quick" fixes, and am willing to try other alternatives first. I will try different salt for awhile, try to find some "miracle mud" for the sump, I have reversed my lighting on my sump so it is opposite of the day lights, and I will continue with larger WC's and keep the rest of my chemistry in order! If these things do not work, I will step up and try the denitrator or sugar dosing.

 

I will try to keep track of everything so that I may pass it all to the rest.

 

Thanks again to all for your advice and imput.

 

Kris