impur Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Well i thought i would post results from all the salts i've tested lately. I didn't try for this, it just kind of happened. All started with low pH. These are just your basic param tests, but i think they still speak volumes for these salts. All were brought to the same temp, using the same mixing pump and heater, and SG taken with a refractometer calibrated with Pinpoint 35ppt solution before each test. Ph tested with newly calibrated Pinpoint PH monitor, backed up with Salifert test kit, backed up again by AP test kit, and backed up again by RedSea test kit. Same goes for alk and calcium, used 3 different test kits. 200gal bucket of Oceanic from Cichlids & Salt pH 8.2 alk 9.6dKH calc 450ppm 90gal jug #1 of Oceanic from Petsmart pH 7.9 alk 9.0 calc 550ppm 90 gal jug #2 of Oceanic from Petsmart pH 7.8 alk 8.2 calc 420ppm Reef Crystals from Petsmart pH 7.9 alk 10.6 calc 500ppm Coralife salt from Petco pH 7.7 alk 8.0 calc 380ppm 10gal box IO from Petco pH 8.1 alk 7.0 cal 340ppm 160gal bucket IO from Petsmart pH 8.1 alk 7.0 cal 340ppm My conclusion: IO is consistant, has a great initial pH that can be raised slightly when buffering alk and calcium. I have taken back all the crappy salts that i can, the reef crystals and coralife. I still have 1 completely full and 1 3/4 full 90gal jugs of oceanic. Hope it freezes a lot this year or something LOL Anyway, as you can see Oceanic is all over the board. Backs up Borneman's findings. Reef Crystals is utterly useless if you have slightly low pH. Coralife could be useful, i don't know how consistant it is though since i only had 1 sample. At any rate, I am now an IO user!!!! (laugh) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyles Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Ya I will give it consistency, I used red sea, red sea pro, tropic marin, sea chem reef salt, and IO, Out of them I liked the red sea pro and seachem reef salt the best however for the price IO at petsmart always gets me coming back, simply buffer cal and mag and it keeps me happy. Glad your getting some decent results, hope the tank gets into full recovery soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civicsit Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Nice info, and thanks for sharing. Do you or anyone else know about oceanpure pro? I use it so I was just wondering. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Too bad you didn't check out magnesium content, which is my biggest qualm with IO. In my tests, IO is consistently around 1050-1100 ppm, while reef crystals is up at a nicer 1300. -Sol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 Somewhere i mixed up results between the IO containers. I just finished mixing up the IO from the 160gal bucket i just bought earlier today. Here are the results pH 8.0 alk 11.6 calcium 340 As you can see IO is not consistant as i previously thought. I am taking this bucket back to the store now, its also useless. I tested at lunch before, and the pH actually went DOWN after a few hours of mixing. I have no idea how the alk got that high. I swear not 6 hours ago it was 7.0. Something screwy is going on. I still do not have a salt i can use. I guess i'll have to rebuy the coralife or go with 10gal boxes of IO, but thats gonna cost a fortune. I'm mixing up another small batch to test and will report the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 Ok i retested the batch from the 160gal IO bucket from petsmart today. ph 8.3 alk 11dKH calcium 400ppm This was triple tested. I rushed the last test on this bucket of IO. I donno what to think. I'm going with this salt now...I think I can do frequent WCs and maintain the alk/calcium with kalk in my topoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
180Brandy Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Interesting!!! Keep us posted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 Will do. Gonna retest the last batch of IO later today. It just doesn't seem right for some reason. I found out where i made the mistake on my scratch paper too DOH! And i noticed my pH monitor has a low battery, so i used the test kits and not the pH monitor for the last test. I'll probably mix the 3 oceanic jugs and the IO up again this weekend and retest. Just to confirm my prior results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defigart Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Would you like some of Pacific Coast Imports salt to test? I would be willing to mail it to you. Obviously it would have to be labeled. appropriately since it is white and powdery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 Yah, if you don't mind i might as well test it up! I'll pm you my address, thanks Doran! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyles Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 You can't just test these salt after you dump in a bucket, they need to be mixed and to temp for at least 12 hours, preferably 24. I don't know if you did this so I was just making the comment. When salt is made the agents (buffers) are just dumped in and mixed, so the salt has to mix well to get a balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 All of them except the last batch of IO from the 160gal bucket were mixing for at least 24 hours before testing. I'll be doing testing on that last batch of IO for the reason you just commented. Thats why i'm still holding off judgement of the latest batch of IO I think thats the reason for the elevated results in alk especially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undrtkr_00 Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Impur, thanks for providing your results. This is a great topic. It's amazing how much variablilty there is in these salt mixes. Considering all the other ways we try to provide control and stability to our tanks, having consistency in our salt mix seems very important. I have been using Crystal Sea Marine-mix for the last few months. I'd like to see how it compares with your others. I'd be happy to provide a sample to you. I started using it based on advice I got from Seahorse Aquarim Supply in N. Portland. They sell it there in 150gallon quantities for relatively cheap (I think $37 per box). Woody (the owner) cites the article below as his reason for choosing to stock the stuff. Note that throughout the article, the salt mix referred to as Marinemix Bioassay is essentially the same formula as the Crystal Sea mix that Seahorse sells, but with a dechlorinator added in. LINK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siskiou Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 My pH has also been lower (between 7.9-8.2 from 8.1-8.4 before) even though I'm dripping Kalk at night with the top-off water. This has been happening very slowly over weeks, so my corals and fish don't seem to mind. I'm using Oceanpure, but have been using IO that was given to me in between which may account for the higher pH earlier. I didn't quite keep track of which salt was in use when. What do you all use to buffer your water if the pH (or other parameters) is too low after mixing? Tried to do a search on RC last night, but the search function gave me no results for "salt"! (nutty) I should also clean and recalibrate my pH probe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyles Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 You should clean and recalibrate monthly if its into a controller, mine is a monitor only and I clean and recal every other month, but its usually off by a tenth or so, I buffer up with kalk to combat my calcium reactor. Saturday I will test the ph of my IO as well after mixing 24 hours and being buffered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siskiou Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Anyone know a good place to get cleaning fluid for pH/Temp probes? The manufacturer of my probes does not recommend vinegar for cleaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyles Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 cleaning fluid? I just gently wipe clean with a soft bristle toothbrush as the instructions suggest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theron Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Thanks for the sharing you study. I am surprised by your results from the oceanic salt. I did a similar test 1.5 years ago. I was using IO and was seeing high Alk and low Ca. Oceanic tested just the opposite, Alk was in the 6 range, Ca was in the 500s. I have been mixing them 50/50 ever since. I posted my results on TheReefTank forum and got schooled by Tom over there and realized that I needed to study my college chemistry book before I could continue the discussion. It was good information, but I just could not comprehend it. I think I might change to IO and then supplement the Ca, Alk, and Mg to the levels that I want. IO is cheap and easy to come by. I just set up a system that does my water changes 24/7 now using a metering pump. New water is added slowly so differences in levels will not affect the tank quickly. Just monitor the tank levels and adjust as necessary. What size samples are you mixing up? And what kind of error are you seeing between the differerent test kits? Theron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siskiou Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Can you elaborate on your 24/7 water change system, please? I'd be interested in learning more, though I'm not sure I can do it here without a fish room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 Impur, thanks for providing your results. This is a great topic. It's amazing how much variablilty there is in these salt mixes. Considering all the other ways we try to provide control and stability to our tanks, having consistency in our salt mix seems very important. I have been using Crystal Sea Marine-mix for the last few months. I'd like to see how it compares with your others. I'd be happy to provide a sample to you. I started using it based on advice I got from Seahorse Aquarim Supply in N. Portland. They sell it there in 150gallon quantities for relatively cheap (I think $37 per box). Woody (the owner) cites the article below as his reason for choosing to stock the stuff. Note that throughout the article, the salt mix referred to as Marinemix Bioassay is essentially the same formula as the Crystal Sea mix that Seahorse sells, but with a dechlorinator added in. I agree, its nice to see results from the salts we use. Salt is the basis for survival in our tanks, the most basic part of what we do in this hobby. I don't think it should be overlooked. I pm'd you about a sample of that salt, i'd love to add it to my little study What do you all use to buffer your water if the pH (or other parameters) is too low after mixing? Tried to do a search on RC last night, but the search function gave me no results for "salt"! I use either baking soda, baked baking soda(washing soda), or Kent superbuffer DKH. Depends on what i have on hand. The search at RC is useless, try google and after your search params add this: site:www.reefcentral.com Thanks for the sharing you study. I am surprised by your results from the oceanic salt. I did a similar test 1.5 years ago. I was using IO and was seeing high Alk and low Ca. Oceanic tested just the opposite, Alk was in the 6 range, Ca was in the 500s. I have been mixing them 50/50 ever since. I posted my results on TheReefTank forum and got schooled by Tom over there and realized that I needed to study my college chemistry book before I could continue the discussion. It was good information, but I just could not comprehend it. I think I might change to IO and then supplement the Ca, Alk, and Mg to the levels that I want. IO is cheap and easy to come by. I just set up a system that does my water changes 24/7 now using a metering pump. New water is added slowly so differences in levels will not affect the tank quickly. Just monitor the tank levels and adjust as necessary. What size samples are you mixing up? And what kind of error are you seeing between the differerent test kits? Theron It suprised me as well. I've been using Oceanic since day 1 for 3 years now and this is the first batch i've gotten poor results from. I also have limited knowledge of chemistry, but i think i can hold a discussion on the subject in general. But i still do reading and enjoy learning about how these things are effected in our tanks. I do think IO might be the way to go. If its consistant, you know what you are getting and you know what and how much to add to get it perfect. The buffers are all inexpensive. Your WC system sounds cool, any pics?? I'm using a sample size of roughly 2-3gal of RO and mixing to 35ppt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theron Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 I will try to post some pics of the water change system. It is a temporary setup right now to see how well it works. Basically, I am using a lab motor that I can control the rpm from 0 to 600. It has two peristaltic pump heads attached that will pump the exact same rate. I have a large container of fresh mixed salt water. One pump, delivers fresh saltwater to the tank the other removes water from the tank. I hate doing water changes with buckets and hoses, and having to shut everything off when I drain the sump. All I have to do here is mix the salt and turn on the pump and don't have to keep the water heated. I can have it deliver the water over the course of a day or a week. So far I am pleased. I have only had it setup for a couple of weeks. It seems to be accurate and my salinity has not changed. Theron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 How do you avoid removing the water you just added? Do you syphon out from one area, but return water to another? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theron Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 No, I don't worry about it. right now I am taking water from the sump and returning water to the display so it should be good and mixed in. Sure some of the new water will get removed and will I guess make it less efficient as doing one large water change. We are just talking about drips of water at a time and I think the benifits for me outway the extra salt. I remember someone actually calculated the efficiency compared to large water change. I did not seem to be a big deal. I am planning on using this on a much larger system in the near future, 300+ gallons which I think makes this much more sense for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siskiou Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Where does your discarded water go? Into a container? Or do you have a drain nearby? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theron Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Right now it gets discarded into a container that I have marked so I can measure the rate of water change. Future plan would be to just discard into a drain nearby. One thing I need to add is a float switch to the salt water container that will shut off the pump if it empties. This incase I forget and let the container run dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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