Piero Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 This is sort of a continuation from the Tyree LE thread I guess, but I thought a discussion of the subject in general might deserve its own thread instead of hijacking the other subject. Economic supply and demand is a hard reality and there will always be a minority that has more money than anything else. Market forces can be a product of necessity, but I think demand is all too often a product of a subculture of mutual encouragement and indirect peer pressure or 'peer encouragement'. Niche hobby and collector subcultures are particularly susceptible I think, but it's widespread in our consumer-centric western society. We all get weak in the knees at times. Hopefully though, there are people around us to slap us back to our senses before we spend our hard earned income unnecessarily, and hopefully we listen! So next time when your buddy is eyeing that 'super one-of-as-kind cherry' frag that costs more than a typical colony, or drooling over that overpriced piece of hardware like a junky fallin' off the wagon - slap him/her outtavit! Brought to your local chapter of PETOP, People for the Ethical Treatment Of Paychecks. There was an article by Calfo here dealing with consumer psychology in the trade. And the discussion thread that it produced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piero Posted January 11, 2007 Author Share Posted January 11, 2007 what makes me lose control of my wallet logic? well right now it's the upcoming iPhone I'm training myself to hopefully NOT to want the iPhone by the time it comes out in June.....I got my work cut out for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefgeek84 Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 what makes me lose control of my wallet logic? well right now it's the upcoming iPhone I'm training myself to hopefully NOT to want the iPhone by the time it comes out in June.....I got my work cut out for me. yeah, they want 600 bucks for an 8 gig...they have to be crazy...but people will pay it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mister crabs Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Not me....I got an ipod....and i have a phone.....and my phone has an mp3 player on it i have never used. as far as frags go I dont buy into any "super rare" or Limited edition" crapola. Because I believe if it were truly rare then the seller wouldnt even have it. and for $100 i can get a few different frags. If i ever spend that much on a frag it would probably come with divorce papers....lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy-S Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Is the cost of a coral always just hype or can a coral be worth $50. or $100 per frag? Example is the Oregon Tort. Even if you do not know the name or hype behind the coral it is still one of the best looking corals in any tank, and IMO worth the $50. to have it. Don't get me wrong I think Tyree LE is the biggest Rip on the net, just for the fact he is really not a frag farmer but a chop shop. Hard to get corals will always demand a high price are they worth it? depends on you. I posted pics of PD Palys in another thread. Those are selling for $50+ per polyp are they worth it? Could you go buy a whole rock of avg zoas from a LFS for less? yes. Will you find these in your LFS zoa tank I don't think so. Are they worth $50 depends on you. I would never and I mean never drop $600.00 for a iphone Why I don't see the value. On the other hand I would drop $1000 for a skimmer for my tank. Go figure. One last thought its also tough to discuss cost of goods and demand among a population when the population being compared are not equal. One person being compared may make 80k a year with no kids and has a lot of extra income to that person $500.00 is not much money. If you have a family of four and only make 25k its a different world. just my .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefgeek84 Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 The only reason, frags go for the high amounts that they go for is because people will pay it. If no one paid it, the price would go down. If everyone realized this in the hobby things would be cheaper...but that will never happen, so you will have to pay 100 bucks for a 1/2" piece of coral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 I find it funny that this thread is started by someone who opposes wild collection of corals. So basically what you are saying is that you want people to captive raise corals but to not make any money on it. LE and the like corals are a coral farmers way to make money. It is definately a supply and demand market place and there is no one I know out there that would rather put dull bland corals in there tanks as opposed to colorful ones. The reason why these go for so much money is that there are far fewer spectacular corals out there than there is people who want them. Some of these corals are just hype but some are really nice. No one would grow a tortusa if they couldn't get serious money for it because they grow to slow to be farmed for a small amount of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVES Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Why not buy a Treo? I have full MP3 playing capabilities and can put in any SD card I want to save the tunes. Currently I have a 4 gig full of music, and a 1 gig I use for software and data. It does way more than the iPhone. Then again, it just aint cool because it doesnt start with i and it doesnt have siloutte commercials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefgeek84 Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Why not buy a Treo? I have full MP3 playing capabilities and can put in any SD card I want to save the tunes. Currently I have a 4 gig full of music' date=' and a 1 gig I use for software and data. It does way more than the iPhone. Then again, it just aint cool because it doesnt start with i and it doesnt have siloutte commercials.[/quote'] Very true...Joel...goes to hype...that we have been discussing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefgeek84 Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 I find it funny that this thread is started by someone who opposes wild collection of corals. So basically what you are saying is that you want people to captive raise corals but to not make any money on it. LE and the like corals are a coral farmers way to make money. It is definately a supply and demand market place and there is no one I know out there that would rather put dull bland corals in there tanks as opposed to colorful ones. The reason why these go for so much money is that there are far fewer spectacular corals out there than there is people who want them. Some of these corals are just hype but some are really nice. No one would grow a tortusa if they couldn't get serious money for it because they grow to slow to be farmed for a small amount of money. I disagree Sean. More people would be growing torts if they were less money. Thus putting more pieces into the trade. People all over the country buy cheaper frags and grow them out. If someone sold a blue tort for 20 bucks, you would have still have a long waiting list. Its funny cause people complain about mark up from big companies and they should not be making that much profit...but when it comes to a small niche market, all of the sudden it is ok for them to charge you as much as possible. Yes, people are paying it, but really they do not have much chioce. I see frags for 150 bucks...c'mon, there is not much effort involved...it does not cost them much. Cause I can assure you that they did not go to the trouble of setting up a reef tank and getting it perfect to just make a living off corals...they set up the tank for the love it, and after a while decided to maybe make some money off of it. And now we have corals that are 1/2" big and go for 150 bucks. I reminds me of lawyers and politicians, they are start out honest and wanting to help people, but then they get a sniff of money, and then the whole game changes. I am not complaining about it, this is capitolism at is finest, this is what our market is all about. However, I will never buy them. But I still think it is ridiculous what they charge for them. My prediction, is that the rate this hobby is growing, that you are going to get some huge investors and people are start buying up "rare" stuff at every turn, growing it for a year or so, and then sell it for much less then everyone else and start to put the vice on others trying to get 65-150 a frag...this is already happening with equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefboy Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 well ive bought alot of socalled LE in the hopes of growing out and selling at half the price but if there slow growers and are hard to get i think they should get the higher price because of the maintenance and care and time that goes into them to get a frag off them. But like the corals i grow if they grow fast they drop in price like the nuke greens they sell 50 a polyp ill sell at 25 cuz there growing fast the purple death not so fast so it may stay at fifty most all other LE zoo's i have 10-15 a polyp now some would say that a rip to but hey i spent the money im paying for the care why not get somthin back besides im growing it and it not coming out of the ocean and every one has the choice to buy or not im not like a cable company ware theres only a few choices if you dont like the price shop around or trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCR Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 SUPPLY AND DEMAND That's what makes the market go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefgeek84 Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 well ive bought alot of socalled LE in the hopes of growing out and selling at half the price but if there slow growers and are hard to get i think they should get the higher price because of the maintenance and care and time that goes into them to get a frag off them. But like the corals i grow if they grow fast they drop in price like the nuke greens they sell 50 a polyp ill sell at 25 cuz there growing fast the purple death not so fast so it may stay at fifty most all other LE zoo's i have 10-15 a polyp now some would say that a rip to but hey i spent the money im paying for the care why not get somthin back besides im growing it and it not coming out of the ocean and every one has the choice to buy or not im not like a cable company ware theres only a few choices if you dont like the price shop around or trade. I agree...if you can get the money for them...I say go for it!!! I just think that it sucks people charge so much in the first place is all... Yes, there is only one cable company...makes life rough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefboy Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 i try to my best to be fair but ive got bills to pay i pay 200 a month in power bills just for my fishroom not counting additives and such and i dont mark my stuff up that much guys that own shops are way above that so somones gota pay somthin or this stuff wouldnt be avaible if power and additives were free id be really cheap just as im sure everyone else would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mister crabs Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 if you can get the money for it then thats great. but i will NEVER pay that for a frag. I can put a few other varieties of coral into my tank for less than one frag of the LE variety. and the average person looking into my tank wont look at a $100 frag and a $15 frag and say ohhh that expensive one is sooo much better. I prefer things that grow faster and have bright colors. makes my tank look better....but thats just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piero Posted January 11, 2007 Author Share Posted January 11, 2007 yep, the iphone is not worth it imo, but definitely a neat device. Maybe after a few generations and a big price drop it will be practical. I'm shocked it only took me 48 hours to bring myself back down to reality! that's a record for neutralizing consumer lust. I feel so much better :P Certainly there's always the concept of income level vs. spending level and I mentioned there will always be a group with more money than anything else. Some people handle wealth differently than others though. I realize most people would go buy a Ferrari if they could afford it, but some actually would not, and might be happy with their Volvo no matter what their income. We only hear about big-spenders through the media, but there are plenty of millionaires and even one billionaire i know of who live very modestly compared to their income level....that's what i would consider a healthy perspective...and I'm envious. My resolution this year in fact is to start trying to live more below my means. So if I start talkin' about wanting a Deltec I really want somebody slap me out of it! And to clarify, I'm apposed to non-sustainable collection practices specifically, not all collection practices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefboy Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 if you can get the money for it then thats great. but i will NEVER pay that for a frag. I can put a few other varieties of coral into my tank for less than one frag of the LE variety. and the average person looking into my tank wont look at a $100 frag and a $15 frag and say ohhh that expensive one is sooo much better. I prefer things that grow faster and have bright colors. makes my tank look better....but thats just me. thats your choice and most average people could care less if you had real or fake my point was if you buy aqua cultered stuff its going to cost more now i agree some people go way over board but fact still remains if i keep a wild coral for a year or a frag off one that i grew to a colony it should demand a higher price then a order of wild caught stuff that cost 25 wholesale a colony that is sold for 50 a colony that i just turn and burn. And thats what most markup is on wild caught.So in essence you want to pay wild caught prices for aqua cultered corals when it cost ten times more to grow one out not including death along the way you have to eat plus everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mister crabs Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 thats true....and i dont think anyones arguing whether the people who grow out the coral and sell it instead of harvesting from the wild deserve to make some money off of it. Of course you deserve to charge a fair price for your work and cost involved with growing the coral. i think the bigger debate was whats a fair price? and like has been said before its all on what people will pay. look at the PS3 from xmas this year as an example. they are listed at $600 and they were selling on ebay for 3-4 times that. I personally wouldnt pay $600 for one so the higher price is outrageous IMO. same for corals. If you can get the prices for these "rare" corals then more power to you. and i never said id rather have fake corals. I wouldnt put fake coral into a tank if you paid me. I would buy aqua cultured stuff over wild harvested in an instant but i refuse to pay 3-4 times as much for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVES Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 i pay 200 a month in power bills just for my fishroom QUOTE] Your complaining about $200?!?! I WISH mine was even DOUBLE that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefboy Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 (nono) wasnt complaining and if you read my quote i explained store owners pay way above that just trying to show the unseen money invovled in aquaculturing corals might want to read whole post before you make a dig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy-S Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Come on we know you shop owners are making a killing off of us. With the way you make up your prices and feed off of or need to have the coolest new things. Thats why you guys drive around in brand new BMW and live in 10,000 foot homes. If you guys really cared about the hobby you would just give away stuff for free or at least cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefboy Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 lol how did you know(clap) and i wish(nutty) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVES Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 I wasnt digging, Just jealous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefboy Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 well i dont make much so 200 on top of regular house power use is spendy but i know your overhead is ten time this but i just erks me when people think this is cheap to do if it was everyone would be doing it and i know there are some making a killing overpricing frags but most dont most are just getting by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piero Posted January 12, 2007 Author Share Posted January 12, 2007 Thats why you guys drive around in brand new BMW and live in 10' date='000 foot homes.[/quote'] Idunno, but I suspect I would love to trade tax brackets with some of them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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