saltwater fish hormones (with an emphasis on clownfish)

[Ron Popeil]

so i know that fresh water fish farmers often, if not always, use injected hormones to stimulate or induce breeding in their fish.

 

im assuming, fish biologists synthesized the chemicals the fish would naturally produce, increased the dosage and discovered that injecting the fish vastly increased the liklihood of breeding.

 

now to cross over to clownfish, is something like this possible or already in application? in more detail, it would be fascinating to hear from anyone with experience with these sexual hormones in fish, particularly clownfish, and discuss why or why not this same process is possible in clownfish....

 

are there any studies i can read on sexual hormones in saltwater fish, or even their synthesis and replication? is this an area of little study? or is it too much like cheating that it robs the standard fish breeder the challenge of using environmental factors to induce breeding?

[CCR]

Viagra!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[reefboy]

why mess with mother nature my clowns seem to have a clutch of eggs every two weeks not sure what kind of setup u have for raising but this would seem challenge enough without increasing mating times i think anytime u try to geniticly inhance mother nature's natural process your asking for trouble not trying to flame but if it came off as so i apologize.

[nu2reef-n]

How long have you had the clowns?

My clowns were adults when I got them back in Feb. or March of this year.

They started laying eggs a couple of months back. Now it seems like they have a clutch of eggs all the time.

[Ron Popeil]

the reason i feel this would be an important endeavour to explore is not so we can have more clarki or ocellaris clowns, clown species that are typically easy to breed, hence their ease of availability. but species that, in my opinion, are far more attractive and exciting, such as a. chrysopterus or a. latezonatus; that are not necessarily rare in the wild but rare in the hobby essentially because of how poorly they ship after collection. ive heard reports that a. chrysopterus have a 60% loss rate at just the wholesalers, and after that a dismal rate of making it long term into someones aquarium. many wholesalers dont bother stocking this species of fish due to this, and this is the same for many species: allardi, nigripes, akindynos, bicinctus. so the difficulties there lay in first just receiving a healthy fish, then trying to acquire two healthy fish to make a pair, waiting for the pair to bond and then settle into nesting habits. with fish that are notorious for not making it past even the QT stage, just keeping them alive is the most important factor.

 

then there are other species that collection sites limit or exclude the clownfish from rarely if ever making it to the market. these clowns are spectacular in their appearance and behavior as well: a. latezonatus, a. mccullochi, a. fuscocaudatus, a. chrysogaster and of course a. omanensis. many of these fish are only found in such remote locations that divers rarely if ever make the effort to collect fish from these areas, and as with the case of omanensis, a personal grant of approval from the sultan of oman is needed to collect his species of clownfish.

 

so collection/shipping distance and transport mortality rates i feel are reasons that when the species ive listed are acquired, and healthy, its important to the hobby and for conservation reasons to do what we can to keep stable wild populations free from collection. so yes, in theory many clown pairs of any species should breed if given the appropriate environments. but just what an appropriate environment for a clownfish like a. ocellaris, a fish that for thousands of generations has been bred in standardized fashion in hatcheries and farms worldwide, hasnt been so apparent for fish such as a. chrysopterus. hence the many people that do successfully maintain this species of fish, even years after having a pair, still have yet to see a clutch of eggs. i think it would be great if all species of clownfish could be captive raised and wild populations left alone.

 

so is there some impatience in me? yes. but there also is a drive to show off a collection of 28 species of fish i find absolutely stunning. and ultimately, a desire to figure out the most rapid ways to keep our greedy hands out of the reef, via captive breeding, before collection ruins what for many of us is our most favorite part of the world.

[Palani]

Yes, for those of you out there that have no idea of the species Jordan just mentioned, they are absolutly stunning. Of course Jordan has a colection of pictures of these clowns that he showed me, and I wish he is to show everyone else here so everyone can appreciate these clownfish.

 

As for hormones Jordan, I know Dale might have some at his house. He bought out a guys back house filled with chemicals to breed his clowns. I don't know if Dale even has them, but it would be a try.

[reefboy]

heres some pics hope your endevors pay off id be interested in your findings as im going to try my hand in raising clowns as well with my new system thats going in.

http://g.msn.com/9SE/1?http://www.julianrocks.net/fish/littlefish/AmphiprionLatezonatus.htm&&DI=293&IG=f3f1a3b123524298a635e271d508de27&POS=4&CM=WPU&CE=4&CS=AWP&SR=4

http://www.kaphoto.com.au/aaKaphoto/Anemonefish/pages/F18AO13%2023363.html

[Ron Popeil]

thank you guys for your compliments. jansen, thats interesting that dale would have those. i suppose i should go talk with him a bit about what he has, if you get any more information from him, let me know...

 

an interesting piece of information i was told of involved freshwater breeders. they would take the water from a tank of successfully breeding fish, and pour it into a nonbreeding pairs tank to stimulate them to breed, with successful results. on a centralized system this might be interesting to see if applicable to saltwater.

 

reefboy, what sort of system are setting up?

[WAVES]

Jordan, I think you should make some calls to O.R.A. and see if they use any sort of "drug". I would imagine they have looked into every avenue for the clown farm they have going.

 

Maybe you could start by contacting Dustin Dorton (sp?) as he may be more likly to help since he is an employee not the owner.

[SnowboardKid26]

Just my opinion, but instead of trying to force drugs down the proverbial throat of fish, how about leaving these species of clowns in the oceans, and in the hands of scientists until their care needs, and yes breeding practises are known. why put undue strain on an already distressed planet to try and keep populations of fish up, just for the wants of aquarists. If you feel as if you can keep these species of clowns alive, and thriving in your system, do it. But do it in such a way as the fish are the #1 concern, and not bragging rights. Just my .02 cents. Sorry if it came off pissy.

[Ron Popeil]

the original topic was to bring out information in regards to hormonal stimulation of clownfish, ideally from marine biologists and then from fish breeders, and to open up a discussion of its use and practice, concerns, etc. the ultimate goal, however, was the potential application of hormones in the realm of hobbyist use. as far as i know, alot of the gains in our hobby have to be made by us: fragging and coral propogation, the breeding of fish such as bangaii cardinals, dottybacks, and clownfish, anemone propogation, captive bred seahorses, exploration with nutritional needs, and experimentation with equipment to create better systems for our inhabitants to thrive in. but why just for the wants of the hobbyist? because hobbyists like you and i are the ones responsibile the undue strain, and to seperate us from that as much as possible is a terrific goal to strive for, and this can only be achieved by captive propagation. i am by no means a scientist, but my natural curiousity to figure out the needs of my particular clownfish and yes their breeding practices shouldnt have to come only after ive aqcuired a degree. if fish farmers and hatcheries are using hormones to produce captive bred fish, what are the steps a hobbyist has to take in order experiment with it on less commonly seen species of fish, whether clownfish or otherwise?

 

i apologize if i came across as bragging, i was hoping the majority of this discussion would be clear that its sole purpose is conservation of a delicate species and all species of clownfish, not a pompous show off of a new toy. of the 28 species of clownfish in existence, only six or so are ever continually available as captive bred. im working to improve that.

[SnowboardKid26]

I guess my tone was a little off after reading my post and I apogize. My main concern was with the mortality rates quoted. Seems like the reason that these fish arn't collected is because we (humans) can't figure out how to ship them to hobbiests with out losing 60% of our attempts. It seems to me that by buying these fish for "hormonal experimentation" we are fueling their destruction. I'd think that we, (humans) would have felt that with the rape of our planet and the decline of our enviroment, ie the reefs, that we would take more care than to keep using resources that are in short numbers. Maybe the sultan of Oman has good reason for not allowing the collection of omanensis until we can get a better system figured out. Hopefully he's just trying to protect the species so his childrens grandchildren can know the joy of watching a beautiful clownfish waggling in the oceans current.

Again, just my opinion.

 

SBK