steveweast

One thing that you might consider...this time of the year at the full moon...the low tides are the lowest of the year. Last week....when we were diving at low tide.....you could have walked along the shore and picked up dozens of stars, crabs, fish, anemones, snails, coralline covered rock, etc......I mean....there were sections of ocean floor that I usually only see while diving. It was quite astonishing..... and that's how I got my purple stars. A good quality sand was also easily gotten too. Just check the tide tables online and look for something like a neg 1.5 or so....find a good spot....and bring lots of buckets.

Well...it looks like you're off to a good start. Last week, I went collecting and finally brought back some VERY clean pea sized gravel from a turbulent area just off shore.....it looks very natural because...well...it is natural. You might consider changing to something like it one day if you're going for that native biotope look. I also picked up these cool, very bright, purple stars. These stars...like the kind that you have... are so great. They're so easy to feed....just throw in a few live clams from the Asian market (or better yet, bring back some free scallops or oysters from a dive) and the stars will just feed themselves over several months without spoiling food fouling the tank. Good luck on your new system....and I hope the strike doesn't finish your system before it really has a chance to get going.

Am I missing something here ? To me, the statement is just Magflake coming out with a CYA notice against using its product for something they know nothing about...plus...or minus. Wait till Mrs. Wages pickling lime finds out we're using their product for something other than its intended purpose....they will issue a statement absolving themselves of liability too.

Think of running a local cold water tank as if you were running a heavily stocked warm water fish only system. Since nothing is photosynthetic, the food requirements and associated wastes are huge compared with what you're used to in a warm water reef. No amount of natural dentrification will be able to keep up....it will help....just not fully compensate like in our warm water reefs. A DSB...remote or not....will help....but, you're still going to have to rely upon dilution (water changes) for nutrient build up control. Your best equipment choice is an oversized skimmer. So, between the critters needing more food imports....and the slower bacterial processes.....cold tanks cannot be run like their warm water bretheren. In the past, when I visited the OCA, I used to think...."man, they really have an algae problem". It wasn't until I started my own cold tank that I could relate. Even when I dive in the Puget Sound, the first twenty feet are always algae choked.....but, below that, it's algae free. I chose to replicate the lower depths by lowering my lights.....and thus making my algae problems a thing of the past. All the critters that I have come from deeper than 50 ft anyway.

Here are a few cold water thoughts that I have.... Having a refugium.... A refugium is great....warm or cold....if your goal is to create a place away from predation for small critters. If your goal is to create meaningful nutrient export through a refugium....you're deluding yourself. Cold water tanks (if significantly stocked) require enormous amounts of food. Just tonight, I fed my cold water tank's inhabitants. Between anemones, stars, fish, crabs, etc....there is about a baseball size of food that goes in.....and the two tanks are only a total of about 180gals. No refugium (unless it was enormous) could make a dent in that kind of nutrient load. If, OTOH, your tank had only a few tidepool critters.....well....then maybe. I used to grow kelp in my small tank. It grew quite well....but....in no way could it keep up with the nutrient build up. The algae growth and associated maintenance became a nightmare.....so....I took out the kelp and turned the lights down. It's so much better now. I put all my large fish eating anemones in that small tank and all my fish into the larger tank....along with the small strawberry anemones. I now keep the light low over both tanks....and as a result, everything is right with the world again....maintenance is now negligible. I now handle nutrient build up through water changes. As for liverock.... If you're using native rock, then you will get no dentrification value. If you're using warm water porous rock, then you might get some dentrification after a long time. These cold water tanks are NOT warm water tanks....the bacterial processes run much slower. I placed a sulfer dentritator on my cold system to help lengthen water change intervals. Even with the dentrator being rated for a 500 gal+ system, it cannot keep up with my tanks' needs......nitrate still builds over time (although it is slower now). The denitrification process is just slowed significantly in 55 F water.....it does happen....it is just slower.....as is evident in how slow the maximum drip rate can be on my denitrator. Several denitrator manufactures state in their instructions that they cannot be used with a temp lower than 65 F.....which is not the case....but, their efficiency is significantly reduced as the temp goes down. Livestock.... As with any tank, you have to decide as to what to keep.....you can't have everything. I too, have a number of predatory stars. These stars are, perhaps, some of the most beautiful and interesting stars out there. To me....they are far more interesting than keeping their prey....namely...bi-valves. So, it's a personal choice as to what one wants to keep. I decided to keep the interesting stars instead of the less interesting scallops, oysters, snails, etc. I just occassionally go to the Japanese fish market and get a pound of live razor clams. It takes about a month for the stars to get to them all....but....it sure is interesting watching them hunt and eat. Oregon Coast Aquarium.... Be careful when trying to replicate what they are doing over there. They are an open system with all the benefits that come with an open system. We run closed systems....which significantly reduces what we can keep and what we can accomplish.

Sorry...I don't think it's fair to those that I'm purchasing from to form a group buy. When I purchase a large amount of salt....the salt vendor will make a small profit off my order without affecting his normal sales since I'm not a bucket at a time retail customer. I order a pallet or so once a year +/-. The point of my post. however, is that the retail margin on salt isn't that large unless the vendor is a huge buyer like Petsmart, Petco, etc.....and even then....the price might not be much better than our LFS. You'll find little variation among our local stores....and like I said....the best everyday price is on IO and at Petsmart (31.99 with a copy of their internet pricing which they match at the store). If you want another brand, I think you'll find little variation from store to store on like brands.

I don't necessarily prefer one brand over another. They do not correct for temp...they are used for warm water....but, there is no need for them to correct for temp. You just need to see what your refractometer reads for cold ocean water....then match that value for your tank....the actual number is irrelevant.....just match the reading for ocean water to your tank water. Of course you could always bring up the test water temp to 78 if you like and then test and adjust to 35ppt....the salt content doesn't change with temp....just what value the refractometer yields will vary with temp...and even with that, there isn't that much of a difference. You could also use a LaMotte titration salinity test kit which is NOT dependant upon temperature and yields a ppt reading.

A few thoughts: 1) When I test the water that I get from the Sound, the pH usually messures at 8.0....sometimes at tad lower or higher.....but, remember, the water sits with no aeration in my bucket for the over 5 hour drive home. I try to keep mine at 8.0 ish. I was unable to keep it at 8.0 without using kalk as top-off...not alot...maybe 1/2 gal a day. Since there is little photosynthethesis going on. my pH has a low of 8.0 and a high of 8.1. 2) As for s.g......I really don't think it is that important as long as it is in the 33 -35 ppt range. The areas that we dive are usually shore dives and subject to fresh water run-off or sometimes even streams. When I test the Sound water....temp at 55....for salinity on my refractometer, I usually get a 34ppt reading....so....I just use that number on my refractometer. By using this method, there's no need to correct my refractometer for temp since...if it reads 34....it is the same salinity as the Sound. I would suggest that you just use your salinity reading device on cold ocean water and use that as your temp correction.

The collection laws are somewhat similar to Oregon. You'll need a fishing license, a shellfish license, and a seaweed license. You can get them online for about $ 60 for all three. Their licenses run from March to March. You just have make sure that you're not in a preserve. The coolers are for transport home. We use large mesh bags that we fill and send to the surface. As for vis...it varies greatly from 0 to 75 ft.....I check the scuba boards where folks report vis at various spots before going. For livestock....It varies throughout the sound. Some spots are great for anemones...other spots for stars...other spots for fish.

Yes....they are anemones. I use lift bags and two very large coolers....no powerheads. I would imagine you'd have tough time at the border crossing with coolers filled with livestock.

There should be no difference between Wa and Or....I guess the Oregon spots are more of a boat dive thing though. I've always wondered if there was a closer spot than Puget Sound to go collecting.....that's why I was watching and waiting for your posts. I go to Wa to collect. Some really nice collection spots from a shore dive are Seiku, Deception Pass, Burrows, and Skyline.....and sometimes at Jorstead.

I'm a little confused since I dive fairly frequently.....was there anything with color ? Where's the christmas anemones, corynactus, red brooding anemones, assorted colored stars, kelp crabs, grunt sculpins, baby king crabs, nudibranchs, cup corals, coralline encrusted rocks, etc.....or was this first trip's purpose to collect a few starter clean up critters ?

For those unfamiliar with the event, here's a few links to read through discussing the recent CFM in Ontario ,Cal. http://www.sw-cfm.com/ http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1032580

As for speakers.....I think they have their place and can be of benefit. The cost of a speaker isn't that high. All require a plane ticket.....some require a small fee....and a place to stay. In general, you're looking at $500 +/- for a speaker. The key is choosing a speaker that fits the demographics of your club. Boston reefers or Bay Area reefers, or a club in LA can bring in anyone on any topic because their membership is so large...that even an esoteric speaker with find an audience of a 100.....but.....our club is small and, as a result, must choose a speaker that has a broader appeal. I can really only think of a two or three speakers that would fit those parameters for this club. The first step of this club is to determine who is its demographics and what do they want.

Piero....you are right to an extent. Most, if not all, information and answers can be found on the net. With that being the case, the club meetings need to offer activities that the net cannot.....basically human interaction. This is nothing new....the net was going strong during the days of high turnouts too.....it's just the events seemed to have a broader appeal back then. When I went to the Scott Michael presentation in Seattle, I really enjoyed it. It was NOT a lecture....but rather, a presentation....as was Tyree's. It had lots of pretty pictures of fish and coral that he took that appealed to everyone at every level. The pictures, coupled with his diving stories, made for an enjoyable evening.....and of course, there was food, raffles, a place for folks to talk who didn't want to see the presentation, etc. The net can offer alot....but, it can't offer everything.....and the club should offer events that the net doesn't do well. An analogy would be....Would you rather be home drinking alone...or at the local pub with friends ?

In general....A middle Salem venue does not work....at least it hasn't in the past. It becomes too easy for both the Northerners and Southerners to rationalize the meeting as being too far away. Alternating between the North and South has traditionally proven to work better.

The underlying demand is there....after all....it was only 18 months ago that the club had over a 100 folks turn out at my house for the Tyree presentation....and the summer before that there was also over a 100 who turned out with no speaker......and then there was the Christmas party at Ryan's where we couldn't even see the floor. Maybe it was the Tyree frags...maybe it was the free food....who knows....but, I don't think the demand has evaporated....in fact, I'd say that there are more reefers today in this area than back then. If you can't draw in February when there's no real competition like sun, vacations, holidays, etc....then, there is a problem. For me....I'm not a Borneman fan....but, I will go out of my way to see a speaker that I wish to see. I drove to Seattle for the Scott Michael presentation....and I plan to go up there in May for the Delbeck presentation. But, I'm on PSAS's email list where I've seem to have been dropped from PNWMAS's list.....hmmmm, how did that happen ? I'm also sad to see the meetings get away from being at someone's house.....I have no desire to go to some rec center with no tank present. Just being honest.

Forgot about the special hazards of Jr. High school.....you'll want to try to find a way to get at least a gallon of kalk a day into a system of your size to maintain pH.

Evaporation is a good thing....it allows you to top off with kalk....which will solve a chronic problem with cold tanks....a low pH. Since there is no photosynthesis going on in the tank, you'll struggle to keep the pH above 7.9. I top off with kalk and can keep the ph above 8.1....but, without kalk, the pH will fall to 7.9 or lower. An auto top off with kalk is easy to set up. Improved gaseous exchange to blow off CO2 is another benefit of increased evaporation. Covering tanks is a bad thing.

Piero....there are a few things that this event can offer that the internet cannot. While some of the vendors will have an internet presence (ie. Atlantis, Tyree)....many are small time operations that have no internet presence. An example would be Travis. Last year, he was going to be a vendor at the bay area event. He was going to share a booth with Eric at Fragfarmers. He created a frag tray in his system months ahead of time in preparation for the event......his stock has limited exposure to those outside our area since his internet presence is limited. Now...even though he backed out at last minute....his frag offerings would have been received very well. This event attracts others just like Travis....those with unique stock but may or may not have an internet presence. The other advantage to a market like this is the availability of stock that is not normally available. Outfits like Tyree or Atlantis make available frags that normally have very limited availabilty.

While I've never lost sight of the fact that this a 100% Tyree event....there still are a few points for the local reefers (club members or not) to think about. For better or worse, this kind of event, leads (or does not lead if it's a flop) to future events and conventions. The local club, whether it likes it or not, will be forced to hitch its wagon to this event if it ever has ambitions to expand beyond a local frag trading organization. The success of an event like this should take into account the LOCAL market dynamics that differ from previous venues like Ontario or San Fran.......and who knows these dynamics better than the local vendors and members. Even though this is a completely private event....the local club (and non club folks) should have a high interest in its success.....since this event's success becomes a resume builder for the club (and the Portland area) in its efforts to attract even bigger events (in spite of it being a 100% Tyree event). I would hope those local vendors and club leadership in a position to offer advice to Tyree will not hesitate to offer it.....it's Tyree's final decision of course. Even though none of us have a monetary interest in this event....it still affects us all.

It might help seed faster....it seems a bit of a hassle though....but, if you're game....