Phil D. Bowl Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Ill be posting thoughts, ideas, pictures and video here as i collect supplies and build a home for some temperate marine life.... first things first! my idea for a chilling system. living in the shadow of Mt. Bachelor in the high desert I think I should be able to harness some of the ambient cold air to cool my system. ( Dont worry! we will get a small chiller too! but i think we can use it about 90% less out here than with most places ) The idea is to take 2 oil coolers with 1/2 inlets and run them in a closed loop with a small pump. The cooler outside will have fans passing air threw. This closed system will be regulated with a thermostat to shut down right around 38f. the cooled indoor chiller (possibly coil... still need ideas on metals that are safe in my setup.) will sit in a holding tank that has an auto top-off valve that comes from my tank. this holding tank will have a thermostat driven pump that kicks on when the main tank gets to warm. this same tank will contain the chiller and should remain a constant 40f. ( this container will be insulated! ) to take this one step further i could possibly use water from our (10ft deep ish) water table to cool a coil... not sure on the legality of that part yet lol! We have an 8ft section of wall that im willing to use ... but the Boss might say other wise. She tends to get her way... like when i said i wanted a LARGE tank... and she said "OK but its gotta be saltwater!" if only she knew what she was in for... Im going to do a minimum of 150g but im shooting for 210g! with a smaller 75g sump and a huge skimmer. id like about 700GPH flow off the main tank ( too much? ) and in my sump id like to do a macro algae and PNW live rock filtration system with a canister and bio balls for a bacteria culture ( possibly 2 canisters running 6 months apart so i can clean one every 6 months? ) with all this being said i wont make a move for gear for about a month.... im thinking after the hollidays ill jump into this project... So any ideas would be greatly appreciated! id like this to be an open discussion on the best ways to go about this project.... lets get creative! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaticEngineer Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I will try and be as much help as possible If you need any inspiration, here's a link to my photobucket that has pictures of everything I've done coldwater related. From building the rock structure out of foam, going collecting, animals I've collected, pictures of the garage systems just about everthing. Also, checkout www.temperatereef.forumotion.com http://s246.photobucket.com/albums/gg100/Stuwobbe/Coldwater%20tanks/ Here's a few I like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaticEngineer Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 So Phil, what kind of biotope are you looking to do? Because that will dictate what kind of tank you may want to get. Are you looking at buying a tank new? Or waiting for a used one? Arylic prices are spendy when you start getting into the thicker stuff that you'll want for a coldwater tank. My garage systems consist of a used lobster tank as a "sump" that has dual paned glass that is 110 gallons, and the display tank has 3/4" front and back with 1/2" sides and bottom and is 200 gallons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil D. Bowl Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 Thanks for the photos! i need to sway my wife a bit more i think... The octopus is a nice touch! she will get a laugh out of that.... ive always joked about keeping one... maybe someday! if i can ever flip a switch and draw in a fresh tank of ocean water... maybe! ill be digging around within the links youve provided, thank you for the offer to help out with advice! i just got my car fixed, its an 82 Rabbit diesel. so i can commute out to the coast on next to nothing! were talking about a trip to rockaway beach soon... ill get a little more inspiration while we are there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil D. Bowl Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 Im not 100% sure yet. I have this dream of a cross section of a tide pool at haystack rock... but its been years since ive been. Id like to do more research before i dive into the tank... thats part of the reason im posting! Ive considered making a tank that can do a high and low tide cycle. with some sort of rock work tide pools... but i think that is getting carried away! im open to suggestions.... and ill be building the tank from acrylic ( for the first time ) if we dont find one used. but i understand 1inch thick stuff is hard to come by used.. ive kicked around doing a plywood tank too... Do you mind if i ask what you paid to build your tank? i like the idea of a thick from and thinner backs and sides... i <3 saving money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaticEngineer Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 The octopus is a nice touch! she will get a laugh out of that.... ive always joked about keeping one... maybe someday! if i can ever flip a switch and draw in a fresh tank of ocean water... maybe! If you have a big enough system for your main tank, you can do a pass through octopus tank like mine is really easily. Also, if your lucky enought to catch a Pacific Red Octopus (O. Rubescens) they only get about 6lbs as opposed to the Giant Pacific (E. Dofleini) which can get up to 160 lbs i just got my car fixed' date=' its an 82 Rabbit diesel. so i can commute out to the coast on next to nothing! were talking about a trip to rockaway beach soon... ill get a little more inspiration while we are there! [/quote'] Nice I used to be a VW guy for a long time, maybe you'll have to stop and pick me up on your way (laugh) Im not 100% sure yet. I have this dream of a cross section of a tide pool at haystack rock... but its been years since ive been. Id like to do more research before i dive into the tank... thats part of the reason im posting! Ive considered making a tank that can do a high and low tide cycle. with some sort of rock work tide pools... but i think that is getting carried away! im open to suggestions.... and ill be building the tank from acrylic ( for the first time ) if we dont find one used. but i understand 1inch thick stuff is hard to come by used.. ive kicked around doing a plywood tank too... Do you mind if i ask what you paid to build your tank? i like the idea of a thick from and thinner backs and sides... i <3 saving money. Josh and I have been talking since day one about how to do something similar. If you wanna do it let me know, I think I have drawings already made. Thats part of the reason I was experimenting with the spray foam rock work. You can cut down on the cost of a huge tank by making just the front panel out of 1" thick acrylic so it wont condensate and building the rest of the tank out of fiber glass and resin with foam rock work with insulation around the rest of the tank. I got my large tank for free (I'm kind of known for getting rediculous deals) Granted, it was swiss cheese when I got it, but I patched a lot of holes and used the ones I didn't patch for the closed loop. I got my 30 gallon 1" thick acrylic cube for $35 on craigslist ( I just had to buff it out) The lobster tanks I have been buying, refurbishing, and selling for about 2 years now, so they've more or less paid for themselves finally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaticEngineer Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 If you use all 8 feet of length on your wall, and keep it shallow you could do an awesome tide pool tank pretty easily. You could make it top down viewable and have the tank at about waste height. ( This is a much easier idea if you dont have kids, lol) If a 8' length of 1" thick acrylic is too spendy ( it is for me) and you dont mind having a bit of a lip on the front edge of the tank, you could always look into getting a custom dual paned window made for the front viewing panel and then making the rest of the tank out of fiberglass. Marineland uses custom dual paned windows for their lobster tanks, like the one I have. It is unpolished tempered glass 3/8 inside, 1/4 gap and 1/4 outside. Hobby aquarium glass is annealed. We purchase the glass assembled as a dual thermal pane piece. Mark Hammond Marineland Commercial Systems 6144 Condor Drive Moorpark, CA 93021 805-517-7116 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil D. Bowl Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 yeah lets see the drawings! how cool would it be if the tank fully drained off and you could look top down at the rock and stuff? how could this be made fish friendly? maybe pockets where they can hide that dont drain off... im all for the DIY stuff too... i was thinking about ship style port holes for frontal viewing.. after you had suggested the top down approach! ( made me remember a tropical "volcano" reef i saw a week or so back..") i love it... great ideas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaticEngineer Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Have you ever seen the tidal surge tank at the Oregon Coast Aquarium? If I was going to do a large indoor coldwater tank thats how I would do it. I would have it be top down viewable but also viewable from the front, and make the rock work come up and out of the tank a bit. Almost more like a tidepool vivarium. That way you could have areas that are always covered in water, but some that are splash pools, or areas only covered with water during "high tide". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil D. Bowl Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 ive never seen the pool but it looks like we need to make a trip... if i ever did see it i was young... my wife comes from NY and has yet to visit the aquarium. I do a bit of 3d design... and among my textures and such are some that will be perfect to map out this idea! now im entering finals week so it may be dec 9th before i can sit down and do this.. but the more ideas we kick around before then the better... i can map out ever bit of the tank... even the sump and piping.. So heres what im sold on so far... 1 the tank will be cold. 2 the tank will be a table type low line tank mostlikely 6' wide 3.5'-4' front to back ( so i can reach the back if i need to) and 1.5'- 2' deep ( is that to shallow? closer to 1.5 if i do the tides ) 3 there will be exposed rock work! i love that idea... gives crabs ( if i end up with any ) some land to dwell on... 4 when all is said and done the tank needs to be 150g (sump included) at the very least. can you harvest rocks off the Oregon coast? do i need some sort of mineral collection permit? i believe my uncle has one for collecting lava rock and obsidian out here... i know where there is a rock that would take 2 people but if its there still will be perfect for the tank... i spotted in in July near garabaldi while at the cabin in rockaway... it was nice and flat with a bowl in the middle... must have been about 150lbs... but i could drill holes in the bottom to make it lighter... ( if collecting is even ok! ) Also... whats the mineral content of the rocks you find on the oregon coast? do any of them degrade in your tank? i mean the ocean is huge so PPM plays a big role in rocks breaking down... but if i grab up rock of the coast will it leach mercury and stuff into my tank?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkreefer Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Welcome to the DARKSIDE! Yeah most places along the coast are not able to have rocks removed, but thats why its so nice we have the same kinda rock every where! But on a tank your size I would use spray foam and http://www.polygem.com/zoo/zoopoxy.php If you want I can pm you my number and go over some ideas, Stew and I are building a cold water tank thats about 200 gals with fake rock for Patrick at Salt water F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaticEngineer Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 ive never seen the pool but it looks like we need to make a trip... if i ever did see it i was young... my wife comes from NY and has yet to visit the aquarium. If you do make your way to Newport, check for a groupon for the Aquarium. You can usually get at least a 2 for 1. Also make sure and go to the Hatfield Marine Science Center that is just down the road from there, its free and totally worth it. I do a bit of 3d design... and among my textures and such are some that will be perfect to map out this idea! now im entering finals week so it may be dec 9th before i can sit down and do this.. but the more ideas we kick around before then the better... i can map out ever bit of the tank... even the sump and piping.. That'll make it much easier I'm just getting the hang of google sketchup, lol. I may need your help when I start on my outdoor setup. So heres what im sold on so far... 1 the tank will be cold. Good decision 2 the tank will be a table type low line tank mostlikely 6' wide 3.5'-4' front to back ( so i can reach the back if i need to) and 1.5'- 2' deep ( is that to shallow? closer to 1.5 if i do the tides ) So are you thinking of making it only top down viewable? With just the front as a see through panel? Or doing the whole thing out of acrylic? I love the dimensions I have nook in my living room that is 6'x27" that I have been debating on doing this exact same thing in. 3 there will be exposed rock work! i love that idea... gives crabs ( if i end up with any ) some land to dwell on... 4 when all is said and done the tank needs to be 150g (sump included) at the very least. can you harvest rocks off the Oregon coast? do i need some sort of mineral collection permit? i believe my uncle has one for collecting lava rock and obsidian out here... The short answer is no you cant. The long answer involves Department of State Lands, State Parks, ODFW, and some beurocracy. I gave up. Most areas that are public access will state somewhere what you can and cant take for personal use pretty visably. i know where there is a rock that would take 2 people but if its there still will be perfect for the tank... i spotted in in July near garabaldi while at the cabin in rockaway... it was nice and flat with a bowl in the middle... must have been about 150lbs... but i could drill holes in the bottom to make it lighter... ( if collecting is even ok! ) See above Also... whats the mineral content of the rocks you find on the oregon coast? do any of them degrade in your tank? i mean the ocean is huge so PPM plays a big role in rocks breaking down... but if i grab up rock of the coast will it leach mercury and stuff into my tank?? The vast majority of it is either sandstone near the beach, or granite. The native rock is really hard to aquascape with, thats why I did the spray foam rock work for the vast majority of my tank. Native rock also weighs a LOT. It has none of the porosity that tropical "live rock" has. The native stuff is literally a solid boulder with stuff growing on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burningbaal Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 thought on tidepool effect: drill the tank for your overflow, but put a full siphon pipe (or 6...depends on how fast you want it to drop) that goes from that bulkhead DOWN...say, half the height of the tank (to the desired 'low tide' height). run a return pump like normal, except you'll have to be careful about the height of the return, maybe use the foam rockwork to make a 'river' for it to get in. on the outside of the tank, just run the drains down to the sump. Make sure these end above the sump's water level or it will blow bubbles while the DT water level is rising. basically, you'll do it like this one EXCEPT, you don't have the pipe go back up on the inside, you stop it on the 'way down'. this should evacuate the top half (or whatever the height of the siphons is) of the DT every time the return pump fills the DT. Make sure the sump has the headroom for this, btw or you'll have a soaked floor. Even cooler: do the above with say, 4 x 2" drain pipes. for the example, lets say the DT is 210 gallons and you're draining 75 gallons with each 'dump'. put a rubbermaid (or whatever, preferably insulated) above the DT with the same pipe system. make this so that it dumps 10-25 gallons each time. either take a branch from your return pump or a second 'return' pump from the display to pump the water up. this will give the effect of waves coming into the tank at 10-25 gallons every few minutes (depends on gph or return pump). I would make this wavemaker dump every 5-10 minutes and the DT dump (to the sump) every 30-60 minutes. This would really randomize the water levels and flow making it very tidepool-esque in my opinion. I've thought about doing this on a reef tank, but don't have the time, energy or space to put it together. btw, make the wavebox dump with 1/2 or a 1/4 of the pipes as the DT's overflow has (or 1/2 the diameter x same # of pipes = ~1/4 the flow). if the wavebox dumps too fast and the DT overflows can't handle it and the DT is nearly full, you could overflow...I would plan on there being more than the wavebox's volume (10-25 gallons) of extra height in DT just to be sure. that extra height would be minimal if you had an 8' x 2' x 2' tank, and set the DT overflows to 210gallons, you have about 22 gallons of extra height for the wavebox. very cool ideas here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaticEngineer Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 You most deifinitely have to incorporate a large surge device into the tank Also, to broaden your idea of what you can do, there is a plant called Salicornia something ( I cant remember the full name scientific name) also called "Sea Bean, Sea Asparagus, Pickleweed, or Saltwort" that can stand higher salintity and is a true terrestrial plant that grows at the edge of the upper tidal zones. So if your rock structures stick about the high tide line, you could plant some of this there and it should grow just fine. I've found it in both sandy and rocky areas. Its a low growing succulent plant six to eight inches high with branching, jointed tendrils filled with salty sap. Best part is its eddible Here's a list of other salt tolerant native oregon plants if your interested: http://www.oregon.gov/DSL/WETLAND/docs/orwap-suppinfo-p_salt-p_lowtidal.pdf?ga=t Heres a picture of the glasswort: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkreefer Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 a surge will run you about 10 bucks for the parts, its just toilet bowl flushing parts. they even come with a bulk head, we have already played around with the idea now for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burningbaal Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I would have the return plumbing pop out near the top of the tank in a very wide pipe, maybe even 4 or 6 inches if you can. build some foam 'rock' around it so the outlet is hidden and give it an elbow so it comes out near a side of the tank, pointed horizontal toward the other side (long dimension). build a trough of the foam rock for it to run down, giving it a 'river bed' for it to flow through. This way when it's at high tide, if the power goes out, the return line won't siphon the tank dry and the 'river' will be very short. at low tide, there will be a stream of saltwater flowing into the pools. Make sure the return pipe gets wide while still vertical so the water 'pools' in it, that way the water flowing out into the 'river' is moving more slowly due to a wide outlet. if you have a 1" return pipe turn horizontal before it gets wider, it will just 'fire-hose' past the wide section without slowing down. one more thought (if you want constant turnover in the DT from the sump instead of only the 'dump'): drill for a bulkhead a little below the low tide mark of the DT and put a ball valve on the outside. get the return pump going. as it fills, adjust the ball valve so the water level is nearly static. set it so the water level is ever so slightly rising. as it fills, the drain will speed up (higher head on the drain = higher flow rate), so it will end up being a static water level. close the drain a little more. repeat until the water level just barely reaches the high tide mark. if the process happens too quickly (it'd be nifty to have it set to only dump once every 12 hours), you can use a smaller return pump or restrict its output, of course you'll have to adjust the ball valve on the drain pipe again. set so it slowly fills over 12 hours with a 500gph drain and just over 500gph return pump (about 508gph). NOW to get really crazy: get 1/4" or so tubing to make the 'dump' plumbing out of. you can get a flow restrictor for the airline (like used for drip acclimation) to adjust it to only drain about 15-20gph. with this set as the 'dump' pipe, the tank will slowly fill over about 12 hours from low tide to high tide because the return pump is moving slightly more water than the primary drain. when it fills the 1/4" tube (high tide), it will start draining. ideally, the high tide drain tube will be set as: gph = [ (return pump) - (primary drain)) * 2]. this way, the drain to low tide time is roughly equal to the fill to high tide time. it would take lots of fussing, but you could be picky enough to set them to ~10hours each. this would mimic the natural tide pretty closely. drill a second bulkhead near the bottom of the DT and plumb a big pump to it (even 1800gph would be cool). this will pump water from the DT up to the wavebox. set the wavebox to dump 15 gallons of water, and do it with either 1x 4" or 4x 2" pipes so it dumps in 4-5 seconds . if you have 1800gph through the pump, it will dump every 30seconds to flood the DT with new 15 gallons. at low tide, thats about 10% of the DT volume, at high tide it's about 5%. I would have the wavebox's drain outlet go into a river type place (maybe the same one) just like the sump's return pump. I'd look into what copepods or whatever are native and try to get them to grow in the wavebox so you get a refresher of them with the waves. if you do that, make the wavebox hold at least 30 gallons so there's a non-dumped volume (preferably with a flow-sheltered area using foam rock or similar) for the pods to call home. man...I'm starting to think I should do a cold water tank...but I dont' want to pay for the chilling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaticEngineer Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 man...I'm starting to think I should do a cold water tank...but I dont' want to pay for the chilling! Its cheaper than running metal halides all year long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burningbaal Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Its cheaper than running metal halides all year long ya...but I don't. What do you do for lighting? how much do you think chilling costs you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil D. Bowl Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 im considering building a test bed tank... i can use basic things like buckets and plastic water basins from the farm supply store. i may even have some rubbermaids available too. ive got extra pumps and timers and such... Also i need to start testing my theory of ambient cooling! On that note. What sort of metal is safe in a marine tank? obviously not copper.. how about aluminum? it does transfer heat well... but its so soft! i imagine it breaks down really bad... maybe coated copper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burningbaal Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 cold water will actually help (not leach the metal as much). how about running a cooling fluid outside, then run it through 1/4" plastic tubing (airline?) coiled in the sump. this way, the cooling fluid (oil?) can run through your metal radiator, and your tank water only touches the outside of the plastic tubing. would that solve the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burningbaal Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 also, be careful about freezing. if you're running something outside, it will get below freezing and that could be bad. Even if the cooling system doesn't pop from the frost, the tank will need to get cooled (it's in the house) but the fluid won't flow. I think it would be best to bury the 'radiator' below the frost line (a few feet in bend, probable) and insulate the hoses to and from it. otherwise you'd have to heat it somehow when the temp gets <35...that's weird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaticEngineer Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 ya...but I don't. What do you do for lighting? how much do you think chilling costs you? I use LED lighting, I messed around with a few different LED setups but I like the screw in Par38 bulbs the best. I also built a 50w high output LED spotlight like what Ecoxotic is selling. I puts out more light than I actually need, so I'm going to down grade that to another 12w Par38 bulb. There was about a $40 a month difference between running the chiller over the summer months and running it since september. My tanks are in the garge and it stays between 50 and 60 this time of year so the chillers have hardly come on at all. I only have a total of 62 watts of light over the tank and it lights it up more than enough. On that note. What sort of metal is safe in a marine tank? obviously not copper.. how about aluminum? it does transfer heat well... but its so soft! i imagine it breaks down really bad... maybe coated copper? Stainless steel or titanium is your only real option, both are too expensive really. Honestly, your best bet for free cooling might be to have an outdoor sump plumbed into the inside tank. That way you'll have a large volume of saltwater sitting outside constantly cold vs trying to cool down warmer water all the time. Salt water freezes at a much lower temp than fresh, especially if it is moving. This is kind of the way I run my system, I use the 110 gallon lobster tank with the 1/2 horse chiller as a sump that maintains a constant 53 degrees, and I run water into the 200 gallon tank and overflow it back into the lobster tank. The 200 gallon also has a 3/4 horse chiller on it mostly as a backup in case it gets really hot over the summer. Coldwater tanks are actually quite suseptable to toxic metals. also' date=' be careful about freezing. if you're running something outside, it will get below freezing and that could be bad. Even if the cooling system doesn't pop from the frost, the tank will need to get cooled (it's in the house) but the fluid won't flow. I think it would be best to bury the 'radiator' below the frost line (a few feet in bend, probable) and insulate the hoses to and from it. otherwise you'd have to heat it somehow when the temp gets <35...that's weird[/quote'] Honestly, I think the end all be all solution is to find a chiller for an exeptionally good price like I do You'll probably want at least a 1/2 horse chiller to run your system. Use www.searchtempest.com to search all of craigslist within a 300 mile radius and I bet you'll find either a lobster tank you could setup outdoors as a sump, or a used chiller for a couple hundred dollars. Or look on local forums for someone getting rid of one. Winter time is a good time to pick them up because everyone just sees them sitting there not doing anything, lol. http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/for/2695633838.html Heres one for $200 http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/for/2723428420.html Heres a 1/4 horse for $325 When it comes down to bare minimums with cold water tanks you can skimp on a lot of the things, but the chiller is literally the life support. Your lights can go out, your pumps can go out, your filter can go out, you can DIY a tank, a stand, just about everything else, but the one place you want to make sure and get it right is the chilling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil D. Bowl Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 i never thought to have a part of the water column out doors... and yeah the salinity would keep it from freezing... ill still need to invest in a chiller or make one. but this might be a very efficient way to cool that tank in the winter time... also cooling from the ground may still be an option but i do know how much titanium and stainless run... and how hard it is to work both so that's all out of the question for the moment... Also, ive already got a large water barrel that would work perfectly for an out-door chilling pool and it would be on the north side of the house witch should also be perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil D. Bowl Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 the foam rock idea im not quite sold on yet... I would like to see some in person some time and see how it looks and feels up close. if that stuff passes... it might be cool to do the whole inside of the tank in foam rock. how hard is the foam? can i scrub it and such or will it fall apart? what kind of a lifetime does it have in salt water? do you guys have any links on working with the foam? sorry about the massive amount of questions but i haven't seen this foam used before.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaticEngineer Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I took the best application of a few different peoples work and applied it to what I was trying to do. I used black pond foam which is designed to be used in water and is UV resistant, its also designed to be used as an adhesiver so you dont have to worry about it falling apart. If you want it permanently hard you can coat the foam work with an epoxy resin, I opted not to do that since the foam sets hard enough to my liking and I used an epoxy based paint to highlight the rocks. I used a technique of applying rocksalt while the foam is still setting to get the texture in areas I wanted. Then once it sets you brush off as much as you can and use a hose to spray off and disolve the rest of it. Most major zoos and aquariums use a similar technique to build fake rocks in their exhibits. Here's a close up of the rock work I did with foam and paint before I filled the tank up. Here's a couple links for info on spray foam backgrounds. http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=273504 http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1438807 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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