⚡️Let’s Talk Electricity ⚡️

[Emerald525]

So I am slowly planning out my fish room and would like to put in a dedicated circuit and don’t even know enough to tell the electrician and I couldn’t find much online so thought I would reach out to you. 
 

Tank system to be all plumbed together.

Display tank 48x32x 18 120 gallons 

Flow: MP 40 x 2
Lighting ATI T5 Led hybrid 

Sump 44x30x15 85 gallons 

 

Frag tank: 30lx20wx12h  30 gallons

flow MP 40 x 1

Lighting Reefi Duo

 

System Return pump ?

 

Question:

Suggestions on number of outlets 

How many Amps ?

I have been told two 15 or two 20 amp circuits would work fine. 
It looks like I have two 60 amp circuits on the panel should I just do a 60 amp dedicated circuit? 
Would there be a down side other than only having a 69 amp panel left ? 

Would you run a GFCI through the panel ?

I read that the circuits don’t trip as much if run though there panel.

If not what to people use their GFCI for? I’m thinking heater is the big one and lighting. 

 

 

I have 2 panels and it was rewired for the Interlock This picture is the current panel. There is room to move things over if needed. 

 

I would like to get something installed before Frp and dry wall goes up. 
Sorry about the crappy pictures I should probably find room design software . 🤪

This wall is gone
 

I will be putting a new wall here : 

 

This is where I want to put a dedicated circuit with lots of outlets.

Remember the wall is going to be where the fish tank is. 

 

 

 

 

[Parzifal]

It’s nice to have two separate circuits if you are running a main and a backup pump.  That way if something goes wrong with one circuit you can just switch on the backup pump without finding an extension cord and a different circuit outlet somewhere else in the house.   
 

go with 20 amp circuits if possible, better to run the higher amperage lines than to find out later you need it and have to rewire! 
 

if you’re doing this yourself, please remember when pulling the wires apart to do so to the sides and not towards your face.   The divit in my forehead is a permanent reminder of that 😉. 

[obrien.david.j]

My setup is a lot more equipment, and I run it off 3 dedicated 20A circuits.   Here's my inputs, and reasons why.

1. at least two 20A circuits.  Electrician is coming out, wont cost much more, panel can easily handle it, and it gives your tanks some safety.
   • on each tank, split water movement equip between the circuits (return pumps on one circuit, MP40's on other circuit)   If one breaker ever trips, the other keeps water flow going
   • You have an electrician out - no reason to ask for 15A circuits, just run 20A's.   (these are the two standard sizes in our houses, get the bigger one)
2. I'm currently running GFCI on each of the circuits.   BUT, I've been considering AFCI's.    Got this summary from a R2R thread.   Didn't someone in PNWMAS have a minor fish room fire in the past 12 months?  

   • Breaker - Purpose protects the wires from over current

   • GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) - Purpose detects ground faults and de-energizes the circuit or outlets downstream from the GFCI in the event of a ground fault over the specifications normally 4-5 milliamps

   • AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) - Purpose detects current generated from an arc between the hot and neutral wires and de-energizes the circuit or outlets downstream from the AFCI in the event of an arc fault: Designed as fire prevention safety device

[Danik]

If you remember my fish room I had 3 separate 20 amp circuits ran there and really only used 2. I think if you go with 2 separate 20amp circuits you should be ok. 

[Emerald525]

30 minutes ago, obrien.david.j said:

My setup is a lot more equipment, and I run it off 3 dedicated 20A circuits.   Here's my inputs, and reasons why.

1. at least two 20A circuits.  Electrician is coming out, wont cost much more, panel can easily handle it, and it gives your tanks some safety.
   • on each tank, split water movement equip between the circuits (return pumps on one circuit, MP40's on other circuit)   If one breaker ever trips, the other keeps water flow going
   • You have an electrician out - no reason to ask for 15A circuits, just run 20A's.   (these are the two standard sizes in our houses, get the bigger one)
2. I'm currently running GFCI on each of the circuits.   BUT, I've been considering AFCI's.    Got this summary from a R2R thread.   Didn't someone in PNWMAS have a minor fish room fire in the past 12 months?  

   • Breaker - Purpose protects the wires from over current

   • GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) - Purpose detects ground faults and de-energizes the circuit or outlets downstream from the GFCI in the event of a ground fault over the specifications normally 4-5 milliamps

   • AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) - Purpose detects current generated from an arc between the hot and neutral wires and de-energizes the circuit or outlets downstream from the AFCI in the event of an arc fault: Designed as fire prevention safety device

Thanks for the information and yes i believe it was a heater which is the main reason I would want a GFCI. 

2 minutes ago, Danik said:

If you remember my fish room I had 3 separate 20 amp circuits ran there and really only used 2. I think if you go with 2 separate 20amp circuits you should be ok. 

I don’t remember that do you have pictures ?

[obrien.david.j]

3 minutes ago, Emerald525 said:

I don’t remember that do you have pictures ?

Found the thread, no root cause.  But theme was still the same.   In this thread, there's also a reference to AFCI/GFCI as well.

 

 

[Bicyclebill]

If that single 20A breaker is what you are able to use, that is absolutely all you'll need. Well depending on how far you go this time.. I bought the GFCI version of that breaker and it's dedicated to my system. The beauty of that is you could break that circuit somewhere along the line and install a 2 way transfer switch to run on a generator. That's on my list of things to do one day myself.

[Emerald525]

1 hour ago, Parzifal said:

It’s nice to have two separate circuits if you are running a main and a backup pump.  That way if something goes wrong with one circuit you can just switch on the backup pump without finding an extension cord and a different circuit outlet somewhere else in the house.   
 

go with 20 amp circuits if possible, better to run the higher amperage lines than to find out later you need it and have to rewire! 
 

if you’re doing this yourself, please remember when pulling the wires apart to do so to the sides and not towards your face.   The divit in my forehead is a permanent reminder of that 😉. 

I would NEVER do this myself lol . I’m hiring an electrician but didn’t know enough to even tell him what I wanted.

[half-astronaut]

If you're having an electrician in anyway, maybe install the required stuff for a generator while yer at it. 

[Emerald525]

1 hour ago, half-astronaut said:

If you're having an electrician in anyway, maybe install the required stuff for a generator while yer at it. 

I already have that . They installed an interlock .

[pdxmonkeyboy]

I would go afci over gfci.   They dont trip accidentally and will still trip if your heater breaks..

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by pdxmonkeyboy

[Emerald525]

7 hours ago, pdxmonkeyboy said:

I would go afci over gfci.   They dont trip accidentally and will still trip if your heater breaks..

 

What would be the downside of doing all afci? Why do people typically run GFCI. I saw one site where the person had an individual GFCi for each piece of equipment. I can see the point as you know exactly what tripped it and you don’t lose power to multiple pieces of equipment but seemed like overkill.  I have to admit it does appeal to my ocd brain .

@TheClark I know you did a post about AFCIs after your plug set on fire any thoughts?

[TheClark]

Some random thoughts / opinions.

20 amp AFCIs for sure at the panel.  20 amp gives more power, barely costs more (at least DIY). 

AFCI, I have fire posts on here about it that topic going back many years.

They do have CAFCI (combo GFCI and AFCI in panel), but I wouldn't use it.

Why?

GFCIs nuisance trip.  I run one off of every apex outlet.  If one GFCI trips, the other equipment keeps working.  For example, heaters and return pumps split on GFCIs.

It will cost about 20 bucks per outlet, but well worth it IMO.  You can use the portable GFCIs and run them straight out of the EB8, one per outlet.  Make sure to get the ones that self reset after a power outage.  

Here is an example, but you can probably do better on price.

https://www.amazon.com/GFCI-Inline-Single-Outlet-Cord/dp/B01GSPTUZG/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=gfci+adapter&qid=1620744525&sr=8-8

Don't forget to run a grounding probe, or GFCI will not trip until you put your hand in the tank and ground it.  In DT and in sump.

An AFCI nuisance trip with everything on one circuit will cost ya everything.  So dual circuits are definitely better than a single.

Lastly, if you have a spare 60 amp, consider running a subpanel to that space.  Why?  You could go nuts and have as many outlets as you want.

Cost I suppose will be quite a bit higher, but I love subpanels.  They let you change your mind down the road easier, and there is never enough outlets it seems in any panel.

 

 

[Emerald525]

34 minutes ago, TheClark said:

Some random thoughts / opinions.

20 amp AFCIs for sure at the panel.  20 amp gives more power, barely costs more (at least DIY). 

AFCI, I have fire posts on here about it that topic going back many years.

They do have CAFCI (combo GFCI and AFCI in panel), but I wouldn't use it.

Why?

GFCIs nuisance trip.  I run one off of every apex outlet.  If one GFCI trips, the other equipment keeps working.  For example, heaters and return pumps split on GFCIs.

It will cost about 20 bucks per outlet, but well worth it IMO.  You can use the portable GFCIs and run them straight out of the EB8, one per outlet.  Make sure to get the ones that self reset after a power outage.  

Here is an example, but you can probably do better on price.

https://www.amazon.com/GFCI-Inline-Single-Outlet-Cord/dp/B01GSPTUZG/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=gfci+adapter&qid=1620744525&sr=8-8

Don't forget to run a grounding probe, or GFCI will not trip until you put your hand in the tank and ground it.  In DT and in sump.

An AFCI nuisance trip with everything on one circuit will cost ya everything.  So dual circuits are definitely better than a single.

Lastly, if you have a spare 60 amp, consider running a subpanel to that space.  Why?  You could go nuts and have as many outlets as you want.

Cost I suppose will be quite a bit higher, but I love subpanels.  They let you change your mind down the road easier, and there is never enough outlets it seems in any panel.

 

 

Do you have a picture of your set up? I like the idea of a subpanel. Stupid question would it still be tied into the main panel so it will be powered by the generator ? Also this seems a better option than more buddy breakers . I agree more outlets is better. 

[TheClark]

1 hour ago, Emerald525 said:

Do you have a picture of your set up? I like the idea of a subpanel. Stupid question would it still be tied into the main panel so it will be powered by the generator ? Also this seems a better option than more buddy breakers . I agree more outlets is better. 

I do have a picture of the APEX setup!  Will dig it up, somewhere on the forum.  I did it a bit different with the GFCIs, pics help.  Basically I made outlet boxes, that plug into the apex, with gfci receptacles.

Yes, subpanel would be tied in, and could be powered by the generator or mains.  This assumes you have a spare double pole breaker, sounds like you do.

Electricians to confirm, sharing FWIW

 

 

 

[TheClark]

Here is the (probably outdated) 2015 fire thread:

 

[TheClark]

Here is the old GFCI thread (also 2015, pretty old).  Unfortunately pics did not get transferred to AWS apparently, so no pics.

 

 

[Emerald525]

45 minutes ago, TheClark said:

I do have a picture of the APEX setup!  Will dig it up, somewhere on the forum.  I did it a bit different with the GFCIs, pics help.  Basically I made outlet boxes, that plug into the apex, with gfci receptacles.

Yes, subpanel would be tied in, and could be powered by the generator or mains.  This assumes you have a spare double pole breaker, sounds like you do.

Electricians to confirm, sharing FWIW

 

 

 

Thanks. I will have to do a little more reading. I don’t know what a spare  double pole breaker is. As I’m thinking about it I don’t think I need an extra subpanel. There is an entire other panel with open circuits. I would just need to move some over the leftover nonessential circuits to the other panel. 
I didn’t expect that they were going to do buddy breakers as there was plenty of space to move stuff around but then again I don’t even know enough about electricity to even be dangerous.

I guess I will work on my apprenticeship and get back to everyone .😂

[pdxmonkeyboy]

What I would do.. ok, actually, what I did...  Was AFCI and a GFCI for things that are in the water.  Heater is the only thing I have on a GFCI because it is the only AC thing I have in the water.  

The only thing a GFCI does is prevent you from being shocked.  So in theory, you could install one single GFCI outlet and the only thing you plug into it would be a grounding probe and a normall open contactor.  That way when the grounding probe trips, it closes the contactor and a light or apex alert goes on telling you "hey, stick your hand in here and get shocked".

I would say that the AFCI woudl be seriously mandatory.  I do believe that in certain rooms in the house they are now mandated by code. Current running through water doesn't burn your house down.  Electrical shorts caused by...hmmm, I dunno... salty water and corrosion on outlets that you can't see .. THAT will burn your house down.  

 

And whose panel is that in the picture?>   those open contactors... simply covered by a sheet of plexi..  cough... cough...  illegal as hell. 

Who cares though.. until your house burns down and insurance investigators deny your claim because of user installed illegal wiring.  I'm sure that would never happen though, insurance companies are really good at just being cool and understanding. 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

Where to use AFCI protection?

AFCI protection has to be installed at the electrical panel. AFCI outlets have to be installed in readily accessible locations for easy operation, renewal, or inspection. AFCI protection must be present in the following rooms in one and two-family homes and multifamily buildings:

• Family Rooms
• Kitchens
• Living Rooms
• Dining Rooms
• Libraries
• Parlors
• Bedrooms
• Dens
• Recreation Rooms
• Sunrooms
• Closets
• Laundry Areas
• Hallways

It’s important to note that AFCI protection is required in any of the rooms or areas mentioned above where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended.

[Emerald525]

7 minutes ago, pdxmonkeyboy said:

What I would do.. ok, actually, what I did...  Was AFCI and a GFCI for things that are in the water.  Heater is the only thing I have on a GFCI because it is the only AC thing I have in the water.  

The only thing a GFCI does is prevent you from being shocked.  So in theory, you could install one single GFCI outlet and the only thing you plug into it would be a grounding probe and a normall open contactor.  That way when the grounding probe trips, it closes the contactor and a light or apex alert goes on telling you "hey, stick your hand in here and get shocked".

I would say that the AFCI woudl be seriously mandatory.  I do believe that in certain rooms in the house they are now mandated by code. Current running through water doesn't burn your house down.  Electrical shorts caused by...hmmm, I dunno... salty water and corrosion on outlets that you can't see .. THAT will burn your house down.  

 

And whose panel is that in the picture?>   those open contactors... simply covered by a sheet of plexi..  cough... cough...  illegal as hell. 

Who cares though.. until your house burns down and insurance investigators deny your claim because of user installed illegal wiring.  I'm sure that would never happen though, insurance companies are really good at just being cool and understanding. 

The picture was just someone on another forum.  My initial thought was just to have one gfci or maybe two and this would be what I would plug the heaters into but multiple people are saying you should have GFCI outlets for everything and plug in individually. 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

Having GFCI for everything is a great way to come home to a dead tank.  

Plus when you wire one GFCI in, everything down circuit from the is also protected.  I guess you could wire them individually.   I don't know.  Maybe just get a gold fish bowl and by doge coin with the money you save. 

 

[TheClark]

16 minutes ago, pdxmonkeyboy said:

Having GFCI for everything is a great way to come home to a dead tank.  

Plus when you wire one GFCI in, everything down circuit from the is also protected.  I guess you could wire them individually.   I don't know.  Maybe just get a gold fish bowl and by doge coin with the money you save. 

 

Hmmm, you got me thinking with that comment.

Back in 2015, I added a GFCI per APEX outlet on the DT.  16 of them.  

Here was my thinking:

- If a single component goes bad, only one GFCI trips, everything else keeps running.

 

Why I did this:

- Many years ago, I used to have a single GFCI for the whole tank.  While at the beach it tripped due to a bad skimmer pump.  My dad came and saved the day.

- If I had a separate GFCI for everything, only the skimmer would have been off.

- This works well for Christmas lights in the rainy NW!

- It was recommended by @Bombertech, remember him?

 

That was my process at least, in case I am explaining it poorly or don't understand something, quite possible!

So you say that is a good way to come home to a dead tank?  Help me understand, please!  

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

If your entire circuit was protected by a single GFCI then if it pops.. EVERYTHING on that circuit goes down.  All outlets have to be GFCI protected now so that usually means the FIRST outlet in the circuit is a GFCI and then all the outlets downstream are just regular outlets by if their is a ground fault on ONE of them, then the GFCI (that is on the first outlet pops).

I guess what I don't understand is how you can have "individual GFCI" outlets.   You mean you connected the downstream outlets all to the line side of the GFCI outlet, not the load side.   That would be the only way to do it. 

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by pdxmonkeyboy

[TheClark]

1 hour ago, pdxmonkeyboy said:

If your entire circuit was protected by a single GFCI then if it pops.. EVERYTHING on that circuit goes down.  All outlets have to be GFCI protected now so that usually means the FIRST outlet in the circuit is a GFCI and then all the outlets downstream are just regular outlets by if their is a ground fault on ONE of them, then the GFCI (that is on the first outlet pops).

I guess what I don't understand is how you can have "individual GFCI" outlets.   You mean you connected the downstream outlets all to the line side of the GFCI outlet, not the load side.   That would be the only way to do it. 

 

 

 

Thanks for responding, its a relief we are on the same page.  I come hear to learn, easier here than the hard knocks way.  Appreciate those who take the time to discuss and share.

Check this post out below, it explains how, but sadly without the original pics.