EMeyer Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Hi everyone, In my next batch, I will have room for a few additional samples and I'm once again turning to PNWMAS for this. But I'm afraid since I have actual paid clients now, I don't have room for just any samples, this time I'm being picky. I will be running carbon dosing experiments in my lab, and would like to compare these with similar experiments in established reef tanks. If you don't want to run experiments on your own reef tank I totally get it, no pressure. But in fact, many of us are running experiments like this all the time as we try new products or discontinue their use. If you were already planning on this, maybe you'd be interested in participating. Here is what it takes to participate. You must Have an established reef tank (≥6 months) Have not been carbon dosing for at least the past month Be willing to start daily carbon dosing for at least two weeks Be willing to sample your tank before dosing and again after 2 weeks Be willing to measure nitrate levels every 2-3 days throughout the experiment and share your data with me I'm testing three different carbon sources: vinegar, ethanol, and a carbon supplement I've developed. My homebrewed carbon supplement is a mixture of complex carbohydrates designed specifically to simulate the composition of DOC in natural reef waters. Its made of natural, food-grade ingredients derived from algae and crustaceans. (I'd be happy to discuss more details in person or on the phone if anyone is curious). I am conducting safety tests beginning this week so I'll have data demonstrating its safety before I ask you to try it. I will be looking for 1 or at most 2 people to test each of these (vinegar, vodka, or my homebrew DOC). If no one wants to, that is OK, but I figured its worth a shot. Anyone want to run an experiment with me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateDawg Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Count me in! I've never carbon dosed but was just doing some research on it a couple days ago and debating on trying it out. This would give me a reason to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMeyer Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share Posted November 18, 2019 (edited) Cool, which carbon source do you want to test? I should say up front I do not currently carbon dose - I struggle to keep any nitrates in my systems and sometimes have to dose nitrates. So I'm not proposing these experiments as an advocate of carbon dosing. But since it is a tool many use to control nitrates, that relies specifically on bacterial activity, I need to test what it does to the microbiome. Edited November 18, 2019 by EMeyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateDawg Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Yeah, I haven't done any so any would be fine, though my tank does struggle to keep alkalinity above 8 so I'd say either the ethanol or your carbon additive. I haven't seen really any nitrates in my tank but I do have issues with GHA so I know they're there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdxmonkeyboy Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 If you have low nutrients then you do NOT want to start dosing carbon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateDawg Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 5 hours ago, pdxmonkeyboy said: If you have low nutrients then you do NOT want to start dosing carbon. What do you suppose is causing the GHA then? Everything thing looks minimal to zero for testing, but something must be feeding the nasty stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMeyer Posted November 21, 2019 Author Share Posted November 21, 2019 I should add that I plan to dose nitrates along with the carbon. Its is a good point -- carbon on its own will reduce nitrates to very low levels. As for nuisance algae, IMO the right grazers are a big part of the picture. Twice I've seen algae erupt in an otherwise clean tank, right after a tang died... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertareef Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 5 hours ago, EMeyer said: IMO the right grazers are a big part of the picture Yep - I had issues with this for a long time until I finally picked up one of Kim's special algae destroying purple tangs that outgrew it's tank. @Emerald525 It is certainly true that not all tangs are created equal in this regard as I had others in the tank before and they would just ignore the GHA. I still see it in the overflows so know it's around but man, that tang does it's job! This is one of the "conundrums" regarding nutrient levels as you can measure low but still have pest algae problems. Potentially an issue with nitrate/phosphate balance but it's hard to really be sure. Eli may have some thoughts about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 27 minutes ago, albertareef said: Yep - I had issues with this for a long time until I finally picked up one of Kim's special algae destroying purple tangs that outgrew it's tank. @Emerald525 It is certainly true that not all tangs are created equal in this regard as I had others in the tank before and they would just ignore the GHA. I still see it in the overflows so know it's around but man, that tang does it's job! This is one of the "conundrums" regarding nutrient levels as you can measure low but still have pest algae problems. Potentially an issue with nitrate/phosphate balance but it's hard to really be sure. Eli may have some thoughts about that. Glad the tang is working well for you. I have really had great luck with the purple tangs on eating even the macroalgae. We sure miss that fish as the algae just took over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateDawg Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 11 hours ago, albertareef said: Yep - I had issues with this for a long time until I finally picked up one of Kim's special algae destroying purple tangs that outgrew it's tank. @Emerald525 It is certainly true that not all tangs are created equal in this regard as I had others in the tank before and they would just ignore the GHA. I still see it in the overflows so know it's around but man, that tang does it's job! This is one of the "conundrums" regarding nutrient levels as you can measure low but still have pest algae problems. Potentially an issue with nitrate/phosphate balance but it's hard to really be sure. Eli may have some thoughts about that. I wish my purple tang ate GHA, actually for that matter, I wish he ate algae period.... he's the most picky tang I've ever seen. The only thing I can get him to eat is dried red algae. I just picked up a cute little dolabella sea hare today from CNC to finally start eating the hair algae, hopefully... Back on topic, since there is algae in the main DT, there must be a nutrient source for it. I wonder if my api nitrate test kit isn't good enough to pick up the nitrates. I'm wondering though, if I start a small carbon dose, just enough to boost the bacteria and strip the nitrates all together and starve out the algae. And also start adding amino acids and tiny small polyp based foods for the coral (such as reef chilli) to as a food source instead of the nitrates and phosphates? Is that more of a flawed idea, or maybe possible and helpful for data for collection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMeyer Posted November 22, 2019 Author Share Posted November 22, 2019 In terms of my tests, as long as you are dosing one of the three carbon sources I mentioned, it will be useful. In terms of whether your tank needs or would benefit from carbon dosing I don't have any special insights. I will say that I don't regularly carbon dose, since I don't understand how people achieve such lovely high nitrate levels in the first place. I'm really excited when I see a nitrate reading above 2 ppm, I struggle to get detectable nitrates more than I struggle to keep them low. IMO the presence of algae is proof the tank has enough N and P, but we want N and P for the corals anyway. I know its a contentious subject, but IMO nuisance algae arent caused by too much nutrients if your measurable NO3 is low, they're caused by not enough grazers. For my experiments (one of which I'm running on my main display) I will be dosing NO3 along with the carbon in order to avoid bottoming out nitrates. If PO4 drops too low I will add that too. My goal is not nutrient reduction, its promoting the right microbes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMeyer Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 Looks like I'm finally ready to start this carbon dosing experiment. Its funny how much time maintenance and testing a little nano tank can take, when there are 12 of them. Decided to modify the treatments slightly, to range from less complex to more complex: ethanol ethanol, vinegar, & sugar my homebrewed DOC (a mixture of partially hydrolyzed polysaccharides) This will let me test whether a single carbon source leads to a bloom of one type, while a more diverse mixture promotes multiple blooms. Anyone think I should switch one of those first two for something else? Is there a different carbon source more widely used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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