Avoiding the uglies with the right microbiome

[EMeyer]

Hi everyone,

 

I've had a pattern developing in the lab for a while and its ready to show you. 

 

We've all started a few tanks and seen our share of the uglies. Its seen so commonly some declare it inevitable. 

 

Here are the experimental tanks I set up this spring for the cycling experiment. After concluding that experiment, I turned on the lights, and stocked each tank with a small cleanup crew and a single fish. I've been feeding daily and maintaining top off water but doing no other maintenance. Remember, this is an experiment, not a display tank

 

Check this out. The only difference between these tanks: they started with different microbiomes. Groups 1-3 had low diversity and balance (averages: 0.1, 0.04). Group 4 had high diversity and balance (0.48 and 0.36). This is what these differences do to a tank, in visual form.

The photo doesnt do it justice... and I forgot to photograph one tank completely because I got distracted taking pictures of the fish. I'm gonna work with my sister in law who is a pro photographer to capture this better. If anyone is curious enough wants to see in person, get in touch and drop by the lab!

Here are close ups of the substrate in a few tanks. Which one would you want in your living room?

I will update this post soon with better pics and an analysis of the microbiome in these tanks. But it was too striking a pattern not to share...

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by EMeyer

[Lexinverts]

Wow! I want some of that microbiome in group 4!

[EMeyer]

The good news is, you've already got some... thats the branch rock.

Turns out within a couple days of adding it to the tank, the microbiome of those tanks was already reasonably similar to established reef tanks (balance scores 0.25 - 0.4)

 

[SuncrestReef]

The images don't show up for me.  Are others able to see them?

[EMeyer]

Sorry about that. I think its fixed now. There are at least 3 ways to include images and all 3 worked for my account / browser but not others! Fingers crossed

Edited September 17, 2019 by EMeyer

[reefnjunkie]

For the ignorant (like myself) are you able to explain microbiomes that you used in group 4

 

I’ll go ahead and google microbiome somI know what that means 😉

 

I’ll be setting up a new tank soon 

 

TIA

[obrien.david.j]

That's Amazing!   

Of course, this is going to lead to the inevitable BRS type question:

What if you'd started with <Product ABC> vs <Product DEF>  vs <GHI> that claims to cycle your tank.   Can you get microbiome diversity from a "bottle."

Verses; Getting Water alone from a friends successful (and microbiome diverse) tank.    (1 gallon of diverse water, enough to seed 100 gallon of new-tank-water - how much is needed?)

Verses; Getting some Water and some Rock from the friends successful tank (and diverse)

Verses; Putting some Fresh (dry) rock into a friends successful tank. Letting it seed (X) amount of time, and transferring it to your tank to xport the microbiome diversity

 

Maybe that's the million dollar question.   What does it take to Xport or Propagate microbiome diversity to a new tank?   

(all this assumes someone has pre-tested their setup with you, to confirm it's microbiome diverse in the first place)

[SuncrestReef]

Maybe I should start selling a few gallons of my highly-diverse microbiome tank water! 🤣

[EMeyer]

8 hours ago, obrien.david.j said:

That's Amazing!   

Of course, this is going to lead to the inevitable BRS type question:

What if you'd started with <Product ABC> vs <Product DEF>  vs <GHI> that claims to cycle your tank.   Can you get microbiome diversity from a "bottle."

Verses; Getting Water alone from a friends successful (and microbiome diverse) tank.    (1 gallon of diverse water, enough to seed 100 gallon of new-tank-water - how much is needed?)

Verses; Getting some Water and some Rock from the friends successful tank (and diverse)

Verses; Putting some Fresh (dry) rock into a friends successful tank. Letting it seed (X) amount of time, and transferring it to your tank to xport the microbiome diversity

 

Maybe that's the million dollar question.   What does it take to Xport or Propagate microbiome diversity to a new tank?   

(all this assumes someone has pre-tested their setup with you, to confirm it's microbiome diverse in the first place)

I encourage BRS and others to run any number of tests like that, analyzing their tanks before and after using my service

 

Group 1 = bad live rock that looked really good

Group 2 = dry rock with bacteria in a bottle

Group 3 = dry rock (control)

Group 4 = good live rock that didnt look too impressive at first

 

In terms of developing microbial communities capable of processing ammonia and nitrite, I didnt see any convincing differences between the live rock sources, and the bacteria in a bottle worked great (the second dose did, anyway). 

Its very interesting to find that in terms of the succession of algal strains colonizing the tanks, (the uglies), there is a big difference... and ONLY the good live rock (the stuff that provided a microbiome similar to mature reef tanks) avoided the uglies. 

 

What does it take to establish a microbiome similar to a mature reef tank? My tests show that 

a) good live rock can do it

b) not all live rock is created equal

c) some bacteria in a bottle products are not effective for this goal

 

What excites me about these findings is they provide the most convincing evidence I've seen that the benefits of a healthy aquarium microbiome extend beyond the ability to process ammonia and nitrite...

 

These findings suggest a scoop of sand or a small piece of live rock rubble from Suncrestreef's tank would work wonders for starting a new tank...

[EMeyer]

11 hours ago, reefnjunkie said:

For the ignorant (like myself) are you able to explain microbiomes that you used in group 4

 

I’ll go ahead and google microbiome somI know what that means 😉

 

I’ll be setting up a new tank soon 

 

TIA

Sorry I missed this. Group 4 was a batch of live rock I got from a wholesaler. I am not aware of any retailers that carry it but the wholesaler lists it as Tonga nano branch rock. They described to me that it comes from a mariculture facility in Tonga, and is shipped to them with corals. It is real coral rubble, with some coralline algae, but no impressive surface growth (sponges, corals, tunicates, etc). Just coral rubble and bacteria and a little coralline. 

In contrast, the dry rock I used was dry, sterile, Pukani. This is also real coral rubble. So both the dry rock and the bacteria in a bottle tanks have this. 

The live rock in group 1 looked AMAZING on the surface and garbage underneath. It was that terrible purple-dyed concrete stuff, I heard someone call it "Walt Smith". On the surface it was the best live rock I've ever seen, hands down. Inside it is garbage. Literally purple concrete mixed with shells and rubble. I predict that a standard building brick would have as much internal surface area as this stuff. If I'd been buying it for a display tank I'd have had an unpleasant dispute with the vendor. For experiments, there is value in testing a wide range of options so I wasnt too upset. 

[reefnjunkie]

1 hour ago, EMeyer said:

Sorry I missed this. Group 4 was a batch of live rock I got from a wholesaler. I am not aware of any retailers that carry it but the wholesaler lists it as Tonga nano branch rock. They described to me that it comes from a mariculture facility in Tonga, and is shipped to them with corals. It is real coral rubble, with some coralline algae, but no impressive surface growth (sponges, corals, tunicates, etc). Just coral rubble and bacteria and a little coralline. 

In contrast, the dry rock I used was dry, sterile, Pukani. This is also real coral rubble. So both the dry rock and the bacteria in a bottle tanks have this. 

The live rock in group 1 looked AMAZING on the surface and garbage underneath. It was that terrible purple-dyed concrete stuff, I heard someone call it "Walt Smith". On the surface it was the best live rock I've ever seen, hands down. Inside it is garbage. Literally purple concrete mixed with shells and rubble. I predict that a standard building brick would have as much internal surface area as this stuff. If I'd been buying it for a display tank I'd have had an unpleasant dispute with the vendor. For experiments, there is value in testing a wide range of options so I wasnt too upset. 

Thanks for the reply-Im familiar with the Walt Smith and based on experience would agree on the garbage part.

 

I'll stick with the bleach bath (or acid bath) for the current rock I have as they are huge pieces and my tanks on the larger side. My thought was getting some of Dr. Tims eco balance to help seed and possibly let a large prawn to decomp to start things off.

 

Thanks for the reply!

[Trailermann]

EMeyers said:

"Group 4 had high diversity and balance (0.48 and 0.36). This is what these differences do to a tank, in visual form......"

A few questions.

1.  How do you measure high diversity (0.48) and balance (0.36)?

Can this only work with true live rock?  I will be starting  up a new DT in a couple of months using well soaked, cured and cycled Reef Saver Dry Live Rock and avoiding the uglies is a high priority. 

2.  This microbiome matter is entirely new to me.  The dictionary tells me that it is a broad mixture of bacteria and other microbes.  Have you developed something akin to sourdough starter that is added to the RODI water when the tank is first filled?

Please keep experimenting.  Let me know if you need a guinea pig.

[reefnjunkie]

A couple questions if you wouldn’t mind I do t know that I saw this anywhere 

 

what type of lighting (spectrum I’d applicable) the total photo period, as well as intensity if that’s adjustable.

Id assume all of those would play a factor in algae/diatom growth but that’s just my 2 cents

 

Tha6 again!

[EMeyer]

2 hours ago, Trailermann said:

EMeyers said:

"Group 4 had high diversity and balance (0.48 and 0.36). This is what these differences do to a tank, in visual form......"

A few questions.

1.  How do you measure high diversity (0.48) and balance (0.36)?

A diversity score of 0.48 means 48% of reef tanks in the DB had lower diversity than this sample (i.e., total number of unique bacterial types in the sample)

A balance score of 0.36 describes the relationship between the levels of each microbial family in this sample, compared with the average levels across reef tanks in the DB. A score of 1 means it perfectly matches the average levels, a score of 0 means its very different. 

Tanks started with dry rock, in my experiments - whether bacteria in a bottle were added or not - ended up with low diversity and low balance. Only "good" live rock produced reasonable diversity and balance. While these effects were consistent in my experiment, your results may vary

2 hours ago, Trailermann said:

2.  This microbiome matter is entirely new to me.  The dictionary tells me that it is a broad mixture of bacteria and other microbes.  Have you developed something akin to sourdough starter that is added to the RODI water when the tank is first filled?

No, to be clear, I have not developed (and am not currently working on) a bacteria in a bottle product. (I am working on a bacterial nutrient solution but still very R&D)

The different microbiomes in this case came from different sources of live rock, a bottle, or none (controls, with just dry rock). I describe the experiment in some detail here

[EMeyer]

1 hour ago, reefnjunkie said:

A couple questions if you wouldn’t mind I do t know that I saw this anywhere 

 

what type of lighting (spectrum I’d applicable) the total photo period, as well as intensity if that’s adjustable.

Id assume all of those would play a factor in algae/diatom growth but that’s just my 2 cents

 

Tha6 again!

Black box LEDs, 8 hour photoperiod. I'll grab a PAR measurement soon. But based on the dimmer switches they are all set at equal intensity, and to the eye they are equally bright. 

I'll also add that I use long LEDs so that each tank shares a light with its neighbor... so these effects cannot be driven by light source differences, because each "clean" tank shares a light with a "dirty" tank. (randomized block design)

[danlu_gt]

I'm curious if any impact microbiome play once algae have taken hold. For example if you place some live rock from tank 4 to tank 3, will existing algae starve back?

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

[Trailermann]

After reading this, my first introduction to microbiome, I have this crude idea.   Most often we are warned that starting a tank with live rock brings nothing but trouble in the form of hitchhikers.  So why not purchase some "good" live rock and quarantine it with sand and Marine Pure.  Like any quarantine program, inspect regularly to remove exposed hitchhikers.  Then following adaquate time, you will have seeded the sand and Marine Pure with good stuff that can be used to start up your new display.

Wondering where a hobbiest can find "good" live rock?

Make any sense?