Plumbing done!

[dunpeal]

Pretty standard plumbing except for a siphon system through the manifold running to a sewer drain and then make up water being pumped back in. Ahhhhhhh so nice not to lug buckets anymore.

[Vance164]

Looks really nice! Is that a Bean Animal setup?

[dunpeal]

Yea, it's a synergy overflow. Haven't trimmed the pipes yet because of no water.

[spectra]

Please explain the overflow? I have one to but the gate valve is supposed to be on one of the Us not the straight one...... I am confused here......

[dunpeal]

I'm doing the gate valve on the vertical pipe to control the siphon to match the return rate. Once properly dialed in the stand pipe with the hole will only handle the infrequent surges.

 

If bad things happen the air line coming from the hole will get covered with water and active a full siphon through that drain. If it gets even worse then water goes down the emergency drain.

 

I set the emergency drain high in the sump to splash like hell so anyone will notice it. Low tech alarm system. Take that Neptune Apex.

 

Hit me up if you have any more questions about it at all.

[spectra]

Well that just seems odd.....I have a synergy overflow also and have one u that is my main drain and it has a gate valve on it. The other u is the full siphon and is a inch higher in the box and also has a hole in the elbow for air. The center one is straight and a bit taller than the other ones and is my emergency drain.

 

Where did you see your set up at ? All the Bean set ups I have seen look nothing like it ?

[ChrisQ]

Well that just seems odd.....I have a synergy overflow also and have one u that is my main drain and it has a gate valve on it. The other u is the full siphon and is a inch higher in the box and also has a hole in the elbow for air. The center one is straight and a bit taller than the other ones and is my emergency drain.

 

Where did you see your set up at ? All the Bean set ups I have seen look nothing like it ?

 

Ok

Now i'm confused.....

 

You are referring to the U's inside the overflow box right?

 

Your main drain IS the full siphon and should have no air and no holes and terminate no more than 1.5'' below the running waterline. The "open channel" is the drain that allows air and should be placed a couple inches above the full siphon. The open channel should only be a trickle and is only meant to keep the system stable and in check "self adjusting" as well as another fail safe.

 

The rigid airline coming from the open channel's only purpose is to not only allow the 50/50 air/water ratio in the pipe but to also activate the open channel's full siphon capability in the event the main drain and open channel is clogged by a snail or what not and impeding flow.

 

The emergency is just there incase both full siphon and open channel fail for some crazy reason and is bone dry 99.9% of the time.

 

I'm still trying to figure out why his emergency drain is so much higher than the top of the overflow box.

Edited September 2, 2016 by ChrisQ

[ChrisQ]

Here's a google pic of one that appears proper.

 

 

 

 

 

Notice the rigid airline attached to the emergency drain, this should be the only hole allowing air into the system. Once the water level reaches the bottom of that rigid air line, the open channel turns into a full siphon after a few secs. emptying the overflow box in a blink of an eye.

 

 

This is how i understand it anyway and how i have mine setup.

 

 

[dunpeal]

What Chris said.

 

The airline when covered in water turns it into a full siphon like the main drain.

[ChrisQ]

I just had a real DUH! moment! 

 

Looking at the pic again i now understand instantly what Spectra was referring to, yes, the gate valve appears to be placed on the wrong drain.

 

The gate valve needs to be on the full siphon drain. In the pic it's on the straight vertical stand pipe. (E-Drain)

 

Take a look at the pic that i posted up top, It goes open channel===>E-Drain===>Full siphon. The order doesn't matter.

 

The only valve needed is the one on the full siphon. The height of the open channel "U" from the top of the weir will determine just how quiet the system will be. Once the system is dialed in, the running water level inside the overflow box will also be determined by the height of the open channel "U" inside the overflow box. The less distance the water has to drop from the weir to the running water level inside the box the more quiet the system will be. This is another reason most people choose to place the open channel and full siphon at different heights.

 

I can't seem to find the diagram i was looking for to help describe what i'm talking about but this should do...

 

 

 

Ignore everything except for the placement of the open channel relative to the bottom of the teeth in the weir.

 

Once the return pump speed and gate valve are dialed in your running water level should terminate just as the the excess flow from the full siphon is cresting over the "T" in the open channel. A non- adjustable pump (DC) along with a ball valve make this incredibly hard to dial in. One of two things may happen in that case..

 

1.) Can't maintain enough flow to reach the open channel because of limitations on the ball valve adjustments and return pump.

 

2.) Overflow the open channel forcing the open channel to trigger a full siphon emptying the box.

 

Both result in a unstable system. You already are running a gate valve so no worries there, you just need to get the pipe placement straightened out. 

 

I guess what i'm getting at is..

This can't happen the way you currently have it set up. Also, Your overflow box doesn't seem nearly large enough to run a straight pipe as your full siphon (If that's what you were going for)because it will have a tendency to create a vortex being that shallow from the surface. This problem was solved with using elbows and t's in shallow boxes I'm not sure what size plumbing you have but it might be an issue.

 

 

 

Sorry for my rambling..

 

Now let's get some pipe switched around and get some saltwater flowin! 

Can't wait to see it run and the new water change valves!

Edited September 4, 2016 by ChrisQ

[The ReefBox]

I can tell you from experience on all my bean animal set ups i have ran a spears gate valve on the full siphon and a true union ball valve on the "open" chsnnel i also run the two at the same height in the overfliw box the standard ball vslve gives for a luttle for adjustment and they are slways supper quiet. Your flow into ghe box vs. your amount of overflow will detrrmine the height of your waterline inside the overflow box and thus will also determine the noise level do to waterfalling from weirs.

 

There are lots of "tweaks" and ways to run a bean animal or modified bean animal, likely it just has to be tuned correctly to operate efficiently and quietly.

[spectra]

Yep I agree with Brian. I have never ran one but have been messing with mine in the garage with freshwater and now have it silent. There is a little noise from the water running into the overflow and also the return breaking the surface but it is pretty much silent as can be.

[Higher Thinking]

Please explain the overflow? I have one to but the gate valve is supposed to be on one of the Us not the straight one...... I am confused here......

I'm doing the gate valve on the vertical pipe to control the siphon to match the return rate. Once properly dialed in the stand pipe with the hole will only handle the infrequent surges.

 

If bad things happen the air line coming from the hole will get covered with water and active a full siphon through that drain. If it gets even worse then water goes down the emergency drain.

 

I set the emergency drain high in the sump to splash like hell so anyone will notice it. Low tech alarm system. Take that Neptune Apex.

 

Hit me up if you have any more questions about it at all.

Hey there,

 

Just to add to what everyone else said, you kind of have your setup backwards. The straight pipe that you have the gate valve on is typically the "emergency" pipe. The pipe that you call the "emergency" is typically what people use the gate valve on.

 

Technically, there is nothing wrong with the setup operationally (assuming of course you cut that pipe down as you mentioned), but it is not the usual way of doing things. Honestly, I think people try to over complicate things with U bends, airline tubes, etc. All of that is unnecessary, IMO. No reason you can't just use three strait pipes in the overflow box.

[The ReefBox]

Hey there,

Just to add to what everyone else said, you kind of have your setup backwards. The straight pipe that you have the gate valve on is typically the "emergency" pipe. The pipe that you call the "emergency" is typically what people use the gate valve on.

Technically, there is nothing wrong with the setup operationally (assuming of course you cut that pipe down as you mentioned), but it is not the usual way of doing things. Honestly, I think people try to over complicate things with U bends, airline tubes, etc. All of that is unnecessary, IMO. No reason you can't just use three strait pipes in the overflow box.

Higher thinking you know I am not one to debate, but I think I this application in general unless you have everything matched perfectly, some control is needed to have the bean animal operate correctly, efficiently and lastly quietly. So valves and airline tubing on at least the open channel is important. Would it run either way, yes but not necessarily properly or how it is intended. After all what is the purpose of a bean animal, why not just run straight stand pipes and call it good. I think in general you are correct that we typically make things more complicated than needed but often times it is needed. I think Mr Beananimal spent lots of time developing this system and tried many tests to get it to produce same results in a majority of the applications it was tested on. At least that's what I got out of reading the original thread from him.

[Higher Thinking]

Higher thinking you know I am not one to debate, but I think I this application in general unless you have everything matched perfectly, some control is needed to have the bean animal operate correctly, efficiently and lastly quietly. So valves and airline tubing on at least the open channel is important. Would it run either way, yes but not necessarily properly or how it is intended. After all what is the purpose of a bean animal, why not just run straight stand pipes and call it good. I think in general you are correct that we typically make things more complicated than needed but often times it is needed. I think Mr Beananimal spent lots of time developing this system and tried many tests to get it to produce same results in a majority of the applications it was tested on. At least that's what I got out of reading the original thread from him.

Good insight man, I appreciate it. I certainly understand where you are coming from. I guess from my understanding and experience (not tremendous, I'll admit), I don't see the reason why you can't just run it with straight stand pipes. A Herbi does just that albeit with only two stand pipes. That's why I made the reference about things being overly complicated. Because you can have an efficient and silent operation from just using straight pipes. The additional stuff just seems overkill/unnecessary.

 

Perhaps I'm missing something with this because it's an external overflow and my experience is with internal, but on the surface it would not appear to matter. Once you tune the full siphon, the only consideration for noise level is making sure the water level in the overflow stays high enough. That is ultimately dependent on the gate valve tuning and the height of the emergency stand pipes. To me, it doesn't seem to make one bit of difference whether you use U's on the top or straight pipe, but I'm always interested to have things expounding more clearly to me.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Higher Thinking

[The ReefBox]

Good insight man, I appreciate it. I certainly understand where you are coming from. I guess from my understanding and experience (not tremendous, I'll admit), I don't see the reason why you can't just run it with straight stand pipes. A Herbi does just that albeit with only two stand pipes. That's why I made the reference about things being overly complicated. Because you can have an efficient and silent operation from just using straight pipes. The additional stuff just seems overkill/unnecessary.

Perhaps I'm missing something with this because it's an external overflow and my experience is with internal, but on the surface it would not appear to matter. Once you tune the full siphon, the only consideration for noise level is making sure the water level in the overflow stays high enough. That is ultimately dependent on the gate valve tuning and the height of the emergency stand pipes. To me, it doesn't seem to make one bit of difference whether you use U's on the top or straight pipe, but I'm always interested to have things expounding more clearly to me.[/quote

 

 

Lol that makes two of us. I'm glad you did not take offense. I'll find the very original bean animal post and send a link that will explain it betters. But without the valves you have no tuning capabilities at all and rely solely on your stand pope height and sizing your pump correctly.

 

What I mean a by this is if your pump is too strong you will fill the open channel as the water rises over the hardline tubing at the top. This will cause the system to flush (the overflow box) and continually try to reset itself. This setup will be extremely loud as you will hear the full siphons all the time. If the return pump is not strong enough the water will all travel down the full siphon line without getting a chance to equalize and will be loud as the water will be falling along way from the weir into the box (waterfall noise). So tuning ability are solely dependent IMO on the valves.

 

So if pump is too strong you can adjust the open channel to allow more water or flow down, again equalizing the channels and if the flow is not enough you can close the main siphon to allow the water level to rise in the box, thus quieting the system down.

 

I am by no means saying it cannot be done any other way, I have just found in my experience that a gate valve at minimum on full Syphon and ball valve on the open channel gives you more control. If cost is not an issue then I would put gate vales on both the full siphon,my he open channel and on the return pump. Why anyone puts a valve on the emergency line is beyond me.

 

I also run the emergency line high in the sumo so it is like an alarm and everyone hears water crashing from tank into sump because it falls so far. Just how I like it though, There are lots of ways to skin a cat and how you or anyone else chooses to do it is your choice. I just like to offer my experiences to give people something to think about when designing their systems.

[Higher Thinking]

Good insight man, I appreciate it. I certainly understand where you are coming from. I guess from my understanding and experience (not tremendous, I'll admit), I don't see the reason why you can't just run it with straight stand pipes. A Herbi does just that albeit with only two stand pipes. That's why I made the reference about things being overly complicated. Because you can have an efficient and silent operation from just using straight pipes. The additional stuff just seems overkill/unnecessary.

Perhaps I'm missing something with this because it's an external overflow and my experience is with internal, but on the surface it would not appear to matter. Once you tune the full siphon, the only consideration for noise level is making sure the water level in the overflow stays high enough. That is ultimately dependent on the gate valve tuning and the height of the emergency stand pipes. To me, it doesn't seem to make one bit of difference whether you use U's on the top or straight pipe, but I'm always interested to have things expounding more clearly to me.[/quote

 

 

Lol that makes two of us. I'm glad you did not take offense. I'll find the very original bean animal post and send a link that will explain it betters. But without the valves you have no tuning capabilities at all and rely solely on your stand pope height and sizing your pump correctly.

 

What I mean a by this is if your pump is too strong you will fill the open channel as the water rises over the hardline tubing at the top. This will cause the system to flush (the overflow box) and continually try to reset itself. This setup will be extremely loud as you will hear the full siphons all the time. If the return pump is not strong enough the water will all travel down the full siphon line without getting a chance to equalize and will be loud as the water will be falling along way from the weir into the box (waterfall noise). So tuning ability are solely dependent IMO on the valves.

 

So if pump is too strong you can adjust the open channel to allow more water or flow down, again equalizing the channels and if the flow is not enough you can close the main siphon to allow the water level to rise in the box, thus quieting the system down.

 

I am by no means saying it cannot be done any other way, I have just found in my experience that a gate valve at minimum on full Syphon and ball valve on the open channel gives you more control. If cost is not an issue then I would put gate vales on both the full siphon,my he open channel and on the return pump. Why anyone puts a valve on the emergency line is beyond me.

 

I also run the emergency line high in the sumo so it is like an alarm and everyone hears water crashing from tank into sump because it falls so far. Just how I like it though, There are lots of ways to skin a cat and how you or anyone else chooses to do it is your choice. I just like to offer my experiences to give people something to think about when designing their systems.

Great response man, I appreciate it. That'll give me something to think about for sure. Hopefully you'll make it to the next meeting at my house and I'll show off my Herbie

 

If nothing else, you can give me some tips on my Malinois.

[The ReefBox]

ame="Brian67" post="387827" timestamp="1473109500"]

Great response man, I appreciate it. That'll give me something to think about for sure. Hopefully you'll make it to the next meeting at my house and I'll show off my Herbie

If nothing else, you can give me some tips on my Malinois.

Now that's one thing I could prob get carried away with (dog training). I'm sure your Herbie runs great but never the less I always enjoy seeing other peeps set ups!

[spectra]

I loved my Herbie but the thing I see is the Herbie needs a full height overflow to make it work. The BA is normally only in a overflow 8" deep or so.

 

I have been messing with mine as this is my first BA overflow.....I loved the Herbie and have ran a few over the years. I have it now where it is virtually silent and like what I hear.

[ChrisQ]

Here you go 

 

 

Part one:

 

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1310585

 

Part two:

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1541946&highlight=bean+animal

 

Bean's original page:

 

http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx

 

All are outdated and obsolete with the exception of part two. 

 

Not very many people have the time or patience to find all the different ways to plumb a "Bean animal" drain system as there are many variations. Brian's right, lots of ways to skin a cat, but ignoring or removing key components and the system is not a "Bean" anymore and will not run as the system was designed.

 

I did my absolute best to explain it from how i understand it and how it was explained to me from Bean and a gentleman named "Uncleof6" this was after years of revisions they made to the design. Uncleof6 seems to still be maintaining the thread and if i remember correctly he is a waste water plant engineer and really seems to have a firm understanding of what the original designer was going for.

 

The reasons why a rigid airline is used or why elbows are used in shallow boxes as opposed to a standpipe or no standpipe at all used as the full siphon are all explained in detail in the thread.

 

But with that many questions need to be asked...

 

How big is your overflow box?

What is the diameter of your piping?

How many GPH turnover are you aiming at?

 

The best advice i could offer you now (OP) is once you have some water flowing if you run into any trouble, take some pics and a quick video of start up/shut down and post it in Part two: If Bean doesn't answer you Uncleof6 will.

 

I still have the "before and after" videos of my setup after talking with them if you would like to also review them. 

The real fun starts when you start testing the "opps! power just went out!"

 

We'll save those trial and error stories for another day.    

I'm by no mean a pro at this setup or trying to discourage you, just want to try and help you minimize any floods and avoid having to read 2k pages!    

Edited September 6, 2016 by ChrisQ

[The ReefBox]

Here you go 

 

 

Part one:

 

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1310585

 

Part two:

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1541946&highlight=bean+animal

 

Bean's original page:

 

http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx

 

All are outdated and obsolete with the exception of part two. 

 

Not very many people have the time or patience to find all the different ways to plumb a "Bean animal" drain system as there are many variations. Brian's right, lots of ways to skin a cat, but ignoring or removing key components and the system is not a "Bean" anymore and will not run as the system was designed.

 

I did my absolute best to explain it from how i understand it and how it was explained to me from Bean and a gentleman named "Uncleof6" this was after years of revisions they made to the design. Uncleof6 seems to still be maintaining the thread and if i remember correctly he is a waste water plant engineer and really seems to have a firm understanding of what the original designer was going for.

 

The reasons why a rigid airline is used or why elbows are used in shallow boxes as opposed to a standpipe or no standpipe at all used as the full siphon are all explained in detail in the thread.

 

But with that many questions need to be asked...

 

How big is your overflow box?

What is the diameter of your piping?

How many GPH turnover are you aiming at?

 

The best advice i could offer you now (OP) is once you have some water flowing if you run into any trouble, take some pics and a quick video of start up/shut down and post it in Part two: If Bean doesn't answer you Uncleof6 will.

 

I still have the "before and after" videos of my setup after talking with them if you would like to also review them. 

The real fun starts when you start testing the "opps! power just went out!"

 

We'll save those trial and error stories for another day.    

I'm by no mean a pro at this setup or trying to discourage you, just want to try and help you minimize any floods and avoid having to read 2k pages!    

Thanks Chris for doing the homework!