Bigjohnwoody Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I have an AGA 120 RR. It has a thick black center brace and it's infringing on my lighting. Unfortunately I'm sure it's there for a strict reason and offers a purpose in structural stability. My question would be, can I remove it and put a different brace in it's place? I was thinking of making a cross brace out of acrylic. It would span across the tank and then have an L on each side that would slip over the edge of the tank to hold it together. It would not be the prettiest thing, but would allow me to light the center of my tank a lot better. Any concerns with doing this? Or how about some other ideas that would maybe look cleaner than my current idea? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Risky risky risky. I wouldnt sleep so well afterwards but i am sure it can be done. I just dont know if the glue and acrylic will hold long term. The factory moldings seem to be one piece, no seams. If you do try it you will probably want your water level lower than half Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Also. What is your current light setup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigjohnwoody Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 I currently have two AI Sol Blues, but getting a third as its just not quite enough light. I would not glue/Weldon the acrylic to the brace. Was going to build an acrylic piece that would actually slip over the tank. Or I could attach the acrylic to the existing brace by not cutting it all the way out using plastic screws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeferscooter Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 you could pull that brace out and silicone in a glass piece to replace it. would be better than the acrylic slide over i think since acrylic has flex in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frlejo Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 you can't silicone acrylic & expect it to replace acrylic that is a 1 piece brace. talk to james at envision acrylic, real good guy, he is known nationwide for his tanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burningbaal Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I think the idea is 3 pieces of acrylic, one that goes across the center, and its ends are attached with weld-on to two more little pieces. these little 'flags' on the end just slip over the sides of the tank to hold it in. I think this would probably work, as long as it's in place before removing the existing brace. that said, I would drain about 4 inches of water, get 3 pieces of glass, two that are 2"x4", one that's 4" by inner tank depth (front-back) and do this: use copious amounts of silicone to adhere the 2x4 pieces opposite each other flush against the front and back panels so the 4" dimension is horizontal, with the top of the pieces about 1/2" below the top of the tank. immediately, while the silicone is still wet, set the long piece on top of these and silicone it in. do this while all silicone is wet because silicone doesn't bind much with dry silicone and you want it to be solid. 3 days later, you can cut out the old brace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I just dont think acrylic will work. I know what you had planned, remake a new acrylic brace in place of the black plastic. Well unless you make it out of one piece, one inch thick, it wont be strong enough. any glued seams will break. If not immediately, then later after the lights get it brittle. I am sure the tank companies would prefer not having them in the middle blocking access and lights but its obviously needed. If you ever find yourself trying to adhere glass to acrylic with silicone for any structural support, you need to rethink it. Glass centerbrace would be a better option but they usually need to be like 6 inch or wider and can look kinda funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burningbaal Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I just dont think acrylic will work. I know what you had planned, remake a new acrylic brace in place of the black plastic. Well unless you make it out of one piece, one inch thick, it wont be strong enough. any glued seams will break. If not immediately, then later after the lights get it brittle. I am sure the tank companies would prefer not having them in the middle blocking access and lights but its obviously needed. If you ever find yourself trying to adhere glass to acrylic with silicone for any structural support, you need to rethink it. Glass centerbrace would be a better option but they usually need to be like 6 inch or wider and can look kinda funny good point on the light making the acrylic brittle. also true that the glass one might look funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Replace it with a glass piece. I would drain the tank down as far as i could to limit any bowing, remove the plastic brace, then silicon a section of glass in its place. The silicon/glass bond will be strong enough to replace that flimsy plastic piece. Obviously the new glass brace would need to silicon to the glass sides so you need to be sure and get the area very very clean and dry. Use Momentive RTV108 (clear) or RTV103 (black) silicon. I have some if you can't find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Replace it with a glass piece. I would drain the tank down as far as i could to limit any bowing' date=' remove the plastic brace, then silicon a section of glass in its place. The silicon/glass bond will be strong enough to replace that flimsy plastic piece. Obviously the new glass brace would need to silicon to the glass sides so you need to be sure and get the area very very clean and dry. Use Momentive RTV108 (clear) or RTV103 (black) silicon. I have some if you can't find it.[/quote'] probably your best option...make sure you let that silicone cure for maybe 48hrs? before refill, the longer the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burningbaal Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 48 hours...yes, I'd feel better about 72 hrs. just leave the water you drain for it in a tub for 3-4 days and pour it back in. no harm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelhead77 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Uhh...Those braces are there for a reason. To put it mildly, it would be foolish to remove it and think that you could do anything that would serve as a replacement for the stock brace. Think about the physics here. There will be a constant outward force of x psi (I'm too lazy to do the math) pushing on the replacement brace. Whether it is held in place with Weld-On or silicone is of no matter, you will be attempting to hold back this force with about 3 or 4 square inches of adhesive. I do not think I would be able sleep at night with this in the back of my mind. If you are set on doing this, then figure out a mechanical way to make the brace, do not rely on adhesives to do the job. For instance, use stainless screws to attach the vertical legs to the cross brace. Better yet, figure out a different way to light your tank or move the corals that are affected. How much light will a 2 inch wide piece of plastic block anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigjohnwoody Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 I was hoping for an easy fix. I know the brace is there for a reason, which is why I haven't already cut it out. I can't be the only one bothered by these things, and was just hoping for some simple solution. I guess the tank will just stay the way it is. I'm still not seeing why a solid piece of acrylic that spanded across the center of the tank, and then just had a piece on each end attached to it with Weldon number 4 would not work. I am running LED's so there is little to no heat. Plus there would be very little light on the seams that would be connected with the Weldon. I can see though after some time how that seam could get weak, but I've always heard that Weldon makes the seams just as strong as the acrylic itself. Not an acrylic expert though so I don't know for sure. I could also just cut out most of the brace, but leave a little behind and actually attach the new brace to the old one with some plastic screws for added strength in conjunction with making the brace. Just some ideas now. I really have no idea what I'm talking about, just posturing:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Uhh...Those braces are there for a reason. To put it mildly, it would be foolish to remove it and think that you could do anything that would serve as a replacement for the stock brace. Think about the physics here. There will be a constant outward force of x psi (I'm too lazy to do the math) pushing on the replacement brace. Whether it is held in place with Weld-On or silicone is of no matter, you will be attempting to hold back this force with about 3 or 4 square inches of adhesive. I do not think I would be able sleep at night with this in the back of my mind. If you are set on doing this, then figure out a mechanical way to make the brace, do not rely on adhesives to do the job. For instance, use stainless screws to attach the vertical legs to the cross brace. Better yet, figure out a different way to light your tank or move the corals that are affected. How much light will a 2 inch wide piece of plastic block anyway? So all those tanks out there with eurobraces are doomed to fail? Did you know rimless tanks are held together by only silicon? Do you know what the shear and tensile strengths of silicon are, RTV silicon specifically? I do, I spent a year researching this stuff for my rimless build, and the strength of RTV silicon is second to none(among FDA approved silicons of course). There is a lot of misconception about that little slip of plastic. There is a huge thread on RC with only rimless tanks, held together by only silicon. I've removed the brace and not reinforced anything on a tank that did just fine for 4 years for me, and now another person has it setup and its been fine for 3 years since. The plastic brace hides the imperfect cut on the top of the tank. You should see how terrible that cut is under there. The brace allows them to use a slightly thinner glass than would normally be required. Replacing the plastic crossbar with glass and the correct silicon would not only be sufficient, it would probably be stronger. That plastic is so thin and so brittle it breaks with the slightest bow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelhead77 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 So all those tanks out there with eurobraces are doomed to fail? And how about all those rimless tanks held together by only silicon? Do you know what the shear and tensile strengths of silicon are? How about RTV silicon specifically? I do' date=' I spent a year researching this stuff for my rimless build. I've removed the brace and not reinforced anything on a tank that did just fine for 4 years for me, and now another person has it setup and its been fine for 3 years since. The plastic brace hides the imperfect cut on the top of the tank. You should see how terrible that cut is under there. The brace allows them to use a slightly thinner glass than would normally be required. Replacing the plastic crossbar with glass and the correct silicon would not only be sufficient, it would probably be stronger. That plastic is so thin and so brittle it breaks with the slightest bow.[/quote'] I think the thickness of the glass along with the height to width ratio would have a lot to do with design of those rimless tanks. Those tanks are engineered and designed to be rimless. The standard AGA tanks are designed to have a brace, otherwise why put them there to begin with. But hey, if you feel comfortable telling the op to cut out the brace and assure him that he won't wind up with 100 gallons of water on his living room floor, then ok, I won't argue. I'm glad it worked out for you and your tank. Personally, there is no way I could tell someone to go ahead and cut out the brace that the manufacturer felt was needed, but thats just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelhead77 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 ........ I could also just cut out most of the brace' date=' but leave a little behind and actually attach the new brace to the old one with some plastic screws for added strength in conjunction with making the brace. Just some ideas now. I really have no idea what I'm talking about, just posturing:)[/quote'] This would actually work. I would use stainless button head screws and nuts though. A 1/4 x 2 inch piece of acrylic would be plenty strong enough. Use two 10-32 screws on either end and you'll be fine. You can put silicone over the screws to seal them. Even tho they are stainless, they will still eventually corrode in a saltwater environment. You're right tho, the Weldon creates a molecular bond between the two acrylic pieces and so is as strong as can be. I just would not be able to sleep well depending on a small joint like that. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigjohnwoody Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 This would actually work. I would use stainless button head screws and nuts though. A 1/4 x 2 inch piece of acrylic would be plenty strong enough. Use two 10-32 screws on either end and you'll be fine. You can put silicone over the screws to seal them. Even tho they are stainless, they will still eventually corrode in a saltwater environment. You're right tho, the Weldon creates a molecular bond between the two acrylic pieces and so is as strong as can be. I just would not be able to sleep well depending on a small joint like that. Good luck. I never thought of covering the screw heads with silicone. I will continue to give this a bunch of thought and a lot more research before I begin cutting. Hey Miles if you ever come down this way, I would not be offended if you wanna stop by and help me DIY:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Next time i head down that way i'll give you a ring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I think the thickness of the glass along with the height to width ratio would have a lot to do with design of those rimless tanks. Those tanks are engineered and designed to be rimless. The standard AGA tanks are designed to have a brace' date=' otherwise why put them there to begin with. But hey, if you feel comfortable telling the op to cut out the brace and assure him that he won't wind up with 100 gallons of water on his living room floor, then ok, I won't argue. I'm glad it worked out for you and your tank. Personally, there is no way I could tell someone to go ahead and cut out the brace that the manufacturer felt was needed, but thats just me.[/quote'] Eurobraced tanks are built the same as these with the plastic, same glass thickness, and held together with only silicon. The reason for the eurobrace is the same as the reason for the plastic - so you can use thinner (less expensive) glass. Only difference is the edges are usually ground and polished so you don't get cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 This would actually work. I would use stainless button head screws and nuts though. A 1/4 x 2 inch piece of acrylic would be plenty strong enough. Use two 10-32 screws on either end and you'll be fine. You can put silicone over the screws to seal them. Even tho they are stainless, they will still eventually corrode in a saltwater environment. You're right tho, the Weldon creates a molecular bond between the two acrylic pieces and so is as strong as can be. I just would not be able to sleep well depending on a small joint like that. Good luck. Like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burningbaal Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 hard to argue with that, impur...bravo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyK Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Following along. I have been thinking about doing the same thing to my aga 120. The plastic brace is a huge distraction for how I would like to aquascape using just one halide instead of two. It casts a huge shadow unless two fixtures are used. I have been contemplating using the screws, acrylic and weldon method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigjohnwoody Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 Next question is how well does light pass through acrylic that's 1/4 inch thick versus a glass piece? How much do those restrict compared to nothing at all? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impur Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Couldn't say but its definitely more transparent than that black brace (laugh) Plus is about half the width. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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