Rick Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 First off is the legal aspect: I had an opportunity to research this in depth a few years back. Legally when anyone makes a purchase they have the right to inspect that purchase and either accept or decline the purchase. (If they can inspect it before they walk out then the guarantee stops at the door) The exception is when a policy or agreement has been made in advance. (I.E. If a store posts they have a 30 day guarantee then they must honor such) My thoughts on this? Is this a business? If so then they build in some profit to cover the losses and are able to provide a guarantee. Personal purchases do not have this profit built in to cover the cost and therefore I always treat them as is once I leave with them. I.E. I have never asked for a refund on a personal deal. (Actually I usually don't from the businesses either) One thing I want to mention as it saddens me is that this person came here offering what he had to sell because this is the place where it is to the mutual benefit of both parties. Regardless of how many posts they had made it is better for the hobby (IMO anyway) to deal with those here than just anyone on CL. This person went so far as to offer to share the loss which is more than what many would do. What saddens me is that this person has now been treated in a harsh manner by 2 or 3 influencial members here over something where it is questionable as to where the responsibilty lies as there was no clear agreement made in advance. If Mike had informed him of his concern and they had agreed the money would be returned if it didn't survive then that would be another issue but from what I read that did not occur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisW Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I remember buying a few dispar anthies from Randy when he owned his shop up there in vancouver. While netting the fish, one of them flipped out and landed on the floor. I made a decision that the fish was ok and I bought it. It died. I never said anything to Randy about it. It was a chance I took and I lost. Win some ya lose some. Poor fish. Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 First off is the legal aspect: I had an opportunity to research this in depth a few years back. Legally when anyone makes a purchase they have the right to inspect that purchase and either accept or decline the purchase. (If they can inspect it before they walk out then the guarantee stops at the door) The exception is when a policy or agreement has been made in advance. (I.E. If a store posts they have a 30 day guarantee then they must honor such) My thoughts on this? Is this a business? If so then they build in some profit to cover the losses and are able to provide a guarantee. Personal purchases do not have this profit built in to cover the cost and therefore I always treat them as is once I leave with them. I.E. I have never asked for a refund on a personal deal. (Actually I usually don't from the businesses either) One thing I want to mention as it saddens me is that this person came here offering what he had to sell because this is the place where it is to the mutual benefit of both parties. Regardless of how many posts they had made it is better for the hobby (IMO anyway) to deal with those here than just anyone on CL. This person went so far as to offer to share the loss which is more than what many would do. What saddens me is that this person has now been treated in a harsh manner by 2 or 3 influencial members here over something where it is questionable as to where the responsibilty lies as there was no clear agreement made in advance. If Mike had informed him of his concern and they had agreed the money would be returned if it didn't survive then that would be another issue but from what I read that did not occur. I disagree with you on this one Rick but appreciate the opposing arguments. I can see the other side. If I sold a fish or coral and it died you wouldn't know for sure if it was something you did or the person did. The problem is I don't view this forum like craigslist. I could see myself doing the same thing. If it was someone from craigslist, I would probably have not taken the fish but if I knew the person from the forum I would be more likely to take it still in good faith. It was a very awkward situation and the fish was obviously badly mishandled. Likely legally Madmike has no recourse. Ethically if I had been the seller in the same situation, I would refund the entire cost. It saddens me that this person felt the 20 dollars (or whatever it was) was worth it when he knows he mishandled the fish. I will not buy from this person and I appreciate Madmike providing feedback because all we ever here is positive experiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 I remember buying a few dispar anthies from Randy when he owned his shop up there in vancouver. While netting the fish, one of them flipped out and landed on the floor. I made a decision that the fish was ok and I bought it. It died. I never said anything to Randy about it. It was a chance I took and I lost. Win some ya lose some. Poor fish. We've all bought fish that have died, the issue with this fish was the fact it had died within 30-45 minutes from being caught in a stressful manner. If it was EVER in my possession in a "normal state" this thread would never have been started, I would have taken the loss and that would be the end of it, nuff said. If Mike had informed him of his concern and they had agreed the money would be returned if it didn't survive then that would be another issue but from what I read that did not occur. I guess thats where I am naive, I didn't think I had to in THIS particular case. If I go to jiffy lube to get my oil changed and they forget to put the drain plug back in and my engine seizes up a mile from the location, I expect it to be taken care of. Just because I didn't say "now you did put the drain plug back and I will be covered if my car explodes..." I consider some things are just implied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saltfinsax Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Man this is a bummer deal no matter what way you look at it. I do like the idea that you brought this up as to help us deal with each other on selling and buying stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CA2OR Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Re: Am I out of line? I think this thread should be closed and deleted just like all the ones that have honest...uh.....I mean potentially negative comments regarding sponsor interaction. If we are not allowed to be honest about sponsors we shouldn't be allowed to do so with members either. I am not implying that anything was done wrong here. I think a 50-50 split on cost is fair. He could just say no and then what? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it typically isn't condoned here unless its positive. Otherwise quite a few sponsors here would be livid at me JMO. Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I disagree with you on this one Rick but appreciate the opposing arguments. I can see the other side. If I sold a fish or coral and it died you wouldn't know for sure if it was something you did or the person did. Correct which is why I think the seller tried to be fair by splitting the responsibility. The problem is I don't view this forum like craigslist. I could see myself doing the same thing. If it was someone from craigslist, I would probably have not taken the fish but if I knew the person from the forum I would be more likely to take it still in good faith. It was a very awkward situation and the fish was obviously badly mishandled. Likely legally Madmike has no recourse. Ethically if I had been the seller in the same situation, I would refund the entire cost. I don't think it matters whether it's CL or otherwise. It's still a private party either way. As I mentioned I've never asked or expected a replacement for anything I've bought from private party here. (And there have been a number of them that didn't survive) I chose to accept that risk when I purchased from a private party instead of an LFS. It saddens me that this person felt the 20 dollars (or whatever it was) was worth it when he knows he mishandled the fish. I will not buy from this person and I appreciate Madmike providing feedback because all we ever here is positive experiences. If the price wasn't a bit too high for the tang I would certainly consider purchasing from them. IMO they tried to make it right by sharing the responsibility which I respect. The main problem I see here is that there is more than one way to look at this and there was not a clear agreement made in advance so I believe a few are treating this person in an unfair manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Eric, I don't think there is a specific policy about negative comments regarding sponsor interaction. You have mistaken this for other forums. I don't think anything was out of line and there are differing opinions in the matter. I for one would have given a full refund but others feel differently and that is their choice. I think it is fair to get the information out there and people can decide who they do or not want to do business with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefboy Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 not sure but I don't think this involves a sponsor other then shared for instance comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Correct which is why I think the seller tried to be fair by splitting the responsibility. I don't think it matters whether it's CL or otherwise. It's still a private party either way. As I mentioned I've never asked or expected a replacement for anything I've bought from private party here. (And there have been a number of them that didn't survive) I chose to accept that risk when I purchased from a private party instead of an LFS. If the price wasn't a bit too high for the tang I would certainly consider purchasing from them. IMO they tried to make it right by sharing the responsibility which I respect. The main problem I see here is that there is more than one way to look at this and there was not a clear agreement made in advance so I believe a few are treating this person in an unfair manner. LOL you and I posted in this thread at the exact same time. I agree with you Rick and I did apologize for posting in Chris' ad without getting his side of the story. I still feel he should refund the entire cost and that's just a difference of opinion. It's just a difference of opinion which I very much appreciate hearing the other side. I don't expect everyone to agree with me and I of course do not always agree with other people. I just like to hear all the sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgf86123 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I see nothing directed at a single sponsor, it's not in a sponsor's thread, so therefore, i see no reason why it should be closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I guess thats where I am naive, I didn't think I had to in THIS particular case. If I go to jiffy lube to get my oil changed and they forget to put the drain plug back in and my engine seizes up a mile from the location, I expect it to be taken care of. Just because I didn't say "now you did put the drain plug back and I will be covered if my car explodes..." I consider some things are just implied. I don't think it's naive. The problem is that what some may think is implied is not always the same as what others do. IMO when buying from a private party it is automatically implied that I am choosing to accept a purchase as is without a guarantee and as a result I get that item at a lower cost. If I wanted a guarantee then I would go to an LFS and pay the higher price (after first making sure of the stores policy). I actually thought everyone thought the same so perhaps I also am a bit naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 I think this thread is getting "a little" off track. I started this thread as I genuinely wanted to know others in this hobbies opinions on the situation. I (just like the rest of us) like to think I am always right, lol, so I thought I would asked what others thought. I am a little shocked and sad that most feel that this hobby is a buyer beware but I have learned a lot about our community from this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CA2OR Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 no....I know this isn't about a sponsor...it's about a member...which is why I said if we can't be open and honest about our opinions on sponsors we shouldn't be able to do so with members either. and to answer the question asked. Unfortunately it is a learning experience and the split is fair....IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgf86123 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Eric, it's staying open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefboy Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 am I not allowed to give a opinion? I think pretty much anything you buy anymore is buyer beware but thats ware reputation comes in for any shop, store, or person but to label a group over one bad deal that they dont give the answer you want is is a tad extreme but I guess your name is madmike be thankful folks cared enough to comment on your bad deal including myself. I think this thread is getting "a little" off track when the sponsors are starting to get involved??? I started this thread as I genuinely wanted to know others in this hobbies opinions on the situation. I (just like the rest of us) like to think I am always right' date=' lol, so I thought I would asked what others thought. I am a little shocked and sad that most feel that this hobby is a buyer beware but I have learned a lot about our community from this.[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CA2OR Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 good thing this is getting left open....I don't think enough people have been attacked or insulted yet. Nice moderating. I wonder why when you report a thread or post it mentions "problematic"....must be a typo Jody, I think the issue here is it isn't so much about opinions as far as whether this is right or wrong as much as it is seeking guidence on what he should do from here. I might be wrong, but that is what I read. One person is wanting to know if their considered course of action is acceptable or would something else be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 am I not allowed to give a opinion? I think pretty much anything you buy anymore is buyer beware but thats ware reputation comes in for any shop, store, or person but to label a group over one bad deal is a tad extreme but I guess your name is madmike be thankful folks cared enough to comment on your bad deal including myself. I apologize and when I re-read I can see where you're coming from. My response was with Eric trying to get the thread closed because of his beef with "sponsor bashing" or whatever his deal was. I want to hear everyone's opinion and I especially value sponsors like you whom I have done business with and respect greatly. ( I edited my post as what was written was not what I meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 Jody, I think the issue here is it isn't so much about opinions as far as whether this is right or wrong as much as it is seeking guidence on what he should do from here. What I should do from here? I've already stated that I'm not going to do anything, I have chalked it up to a loss and a learning experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefboy Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 thanks I believe you got the short end so keep your chin up and learn from that but dont think everyone in this group will do the same its just unfortunate you had this happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I think this thread is getting "a little" off track when the sponsors are starting to get involved??? I started this thread as I genuinely wanted to know others in this hobbies opinions on the situation. I (just like the rest of us) like to think I am always right' date=' lol, so I thought I would asked what others thought. I am a little shocked and sad that most feel that this hobby is a buyer beware but I have learned a lot about our community from this.[/quote'] Madmike, don't assume just because a few people type here that that represents the majority. I have made that mistake in the past. LOL I always think I am right too and agree with you 100% and appreciate you posting because it was very informative and eye opening that many people felt the 50/50 split was fair which is why I apologized to Chris for flaming him. Having read your experience, I would be hesitant to buy from him. I have sold things to people in the past and would very much like to know if they are unhappy with something they have bought from me. Positive feedback is wonderful but I learn a lot from constructive criticism as well. Thanks for bringing up the question. am I not allowed to give a opinion? I think pretty much anything you buy anymore is buyer beware but thats ware reputation comes in for any shop' date=' store, or person but to label a group over one bad deal is a tad extreme but I guess your name is madmike be thankful folks cared enough to comment on your bad deal including myself.[/quote'] Sponsors are people too Jody! :DI very much value your opinion and respect your customer service, business practices and love your corals which is why I am a repeat customer.(clap) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefboy Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Thanks just call me Madreefboy as Roger will attest I forgot my pill today;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 but I guess your name is madmike be thankful folks cared enough to comment on your bad deal including myself. Haha most that know me would laugh too as my name is a bit of sarcasm. In hindsight, I SHOULD have just left the members name out of the original thread and just asked it as a hypothetical question. I guess I am not superhuman and prone to a little bit of haste! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 I forgot my pill today You're welcome in my pharmacy any day... we've got LOTS of pills...(green ones, white ones, yellow ones, red ones, brown ones, oh and pink ones, and did I say white.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 good thing this is getting left open....I don't think enough people have been attacked or insulted yet. Nice moderating. I wonder why when you report a thread or post it mentions "problematic"....must be a typo In remembrance of Gary Coleman... What you talking about Eric?(scratch) The thread that was pulled regarding a sponsor (nanoreef) was put back so what are you referring to? I am Con fuuuuused.(scratch) Thanks just call me Madreefboy as Roger will attest I forgot my pill today;) LOL I like it! It fits and take your pill!(laugh) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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