Refugiums and Bioballs and Nitrate Reactors oh my!

[Twitterbait]

I have been reading through the threads and i see all kinds of methods and yes it should be that way since we all have different tanks... But the methods we recommend from our tank is not necessarily the best for the HSMC tanks. I figured it would be wise for us to actually get in there and see what they have before we recommend too much.

 

Buuuuutt since we are taking the opportunity i figure i just have to weigh in on the common methods with my own 2 cents (ok maybe $ .03)

 

First, take a look at these two threads:

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f77/some-funny-misconceptions-ive-read-about-dsbs-23293.html

 

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f77/ways-to-make-dsbs-work-and-why-many-dont-107650.html

 

I was lucky to get a lot of great advice from Spanky (2 doctorate degrees in marine sciences including biosediments) when he was on the forums and along with a lot of reading i have developed my opinions.

 

Dosing chemicals in our tanks is always fun.

1. Calcium, Magnesium, and buffer are IMO the only thing that our tanks need. if you reviewed the test results for the salt mixes we use you will notice that all the trace elements are way higher in the salt mix then in NSW so why do we need to add them?
   
2. Strotium, Molyebdenum, Iodine, etc... are "heavy metals" and elements that in high enough concentration can poison your livestock. don't risk it if you are not testing for it!
   
3. The best rule i ever learned is don't put anything in your tank if you are not testing for it. your waterchange should be more than enough for these extra minor elements
   

Bio Balls: I have used them but the method of use will give you different results.

1. Large systems use them usually because they don't use much LR in the systems and the bioballs can provide additional surface area for the ammonia conversion process
   
2. Wet/Dry systems allow the water to trickle through the bio balls, this method is not as effective as it allows too much o2 into a process that is normally carried out in anoxic conditions
   
3. Submersion is when the balls are always submerged and allows the best filtration for this method as it provides a lower o2 level and the balls are always wet
   

In general the overall problem with bioballs is the simple issue where they catch detrius and allow it to dissolve and turn into phosphate (YOUR FILTER SOCK DOES THE SAME THING!!). compared to LR they are extremely wastefull of valuable space and substandard when it comes to providing surface area for bacteria to populate. This method had its time but with what we know about LR i would not recommend them for any SW setup. they are much better in pond filtration.

 

Refugium: I know a lot of you use them but... the data is mixed. Here are some thoughts

1. SPS tanks, in the wild you generally don't see seaweed beds near SPS reefs. SPS prefers clean water, very clean water. While there are always exceptions if you use nature as an example you would not have a refugium on your SPS display
   
2. LPS/Softy tanks, While it is true that you will at times find seaweed in proximity to these corals you will not usually find massive beds for the simple reason that algae usually takes over any real estate that it can and they put off too much nutrients for the coral to thrive
   

Before i begin also keep in mind that seaweed in refugiums will at time go sexual and pollute your tank with nasty white stuff, it also has the same problem as bioballs where it will catch and keep detrius.

The argument that seaweed and refugiums remove nutrients is not totally true. it is simply another method of converting nutrients to something else. There have been studies done in nature to see how the nutrient conversion works and they actually found that the seaweed beds actually output more nutriens into the water than they remove. Considering they convert light and nutrients into growth this is not far fetched. As soon as the seaweed begins to grow it also has die off which simply puts the nutrients back in the water.

So if you keep a refugium be sure to trim your seaweed on a very regular basis. it may not blow up on you right away, but in the end there are more effective methods.

 

Denitrification and phosphate filters are problematic at best. What they don't tell you can hurt your tank or at least be a simple waste of money:

1. Denitrators are simply a man made method of creating an anoxic region that allows denitrifying bacteria to populate and convert the nitrate in your tank to harmless nitrogen gas. if you want this to be effective you will need to get one that is massive. it is hard to match a sand bed or live rock for its ability to perform this conversion. rember surface area!!
   
2. Phosphate reactors are a nice thought but come up short in one massive way. the media you use in a reactor is going to be either aluminium oxide or iron oxide, now look at lawn fertalizer and guess what you will see? these two elements are common fertalizers. yes they will remove phosphate to a degree but they fertalize your tank at the same time. yes if you slow the flow through the reactor waaaayyyy down you can reduce the effect of the media in fertalizing your tank but at the same time you would need a ton of reactors to be totally effective in your tank
   

So now you ask why this stuff works? it is usually going to be because your sandbed is absorbing most of the punishment or it is because you have a badass skimmer that is making up for the rest. Then again you may have the magic combination, just be careful, i have had them blow up in my face before.

 

 

So what do i recommend after all this rambling...

 

To avoid Phosphate building from captured detrius

1. no fliter sock or pad
   
2. no bioballs or LR in the sump
   
3. Good flow in the tank to avoid detrius collecting on the rock or sand
   
4. keep your sand bed thin
   

Get a large overrated skimmer, on the order of 1.5+ times the size of your WHOLE system not just the tank. if you have a 100g tank and 50g sump then get a skimmer that works on AT LEAST 225g (more is better). now set the skimmer intake pump in a position where it will suck in the water straight from your tank drain line to the sump to ensure that you skim as much as possible. if you can afford it get a highly rated UV filter and place it in between the Tank drain line and the skimmer intake, this will unbind the bound Phosphate and allow it to be skimmed.

 

So how does this all help the conversion process and filter your tank? It skips the conversion of the pollutants in the tank and removes all of it from the water column before it has a chance to do anything. your fish and coral don't need this process to live, they just need good low, temp and salinity. Why do you go through the trouble of converting everything when you could simply remove the 1 step at the start? if you read through the threads above it should be clear that the odds of us mimicking the oceans natural filtration is not possible with the space and resources we have to work with. so lets just use the technology at hand and avoid all the extra hassle?

 

This is the "wealth" of my knowledge on the subjects. I am not calling anyone out and if you choose to use anything i don't recommend i won't hassle you, I am all for people doing their thing in this hobby as long as it doesn't hurt our criters. I just want people to really look a both sides of the issue here and maybe you might find the tank easier to take care of if all you have to do is empty a skimer cup. if you have a question please post it or PM me, i'm happy to help.

 

Cheers,

[Quigley]

In your ideal scenario you recommend having the water from the tank feed directly to the skimmer and then to the sump. Most skimmers are not gravity fed, how do you balance the flow between the sump and the main tank.

[MadReefer]

Refugium: I know a lot of you use them but... the data is mixed. Here are some thoughts

1. SPS tanks, in the wild you generally don't see seaweed beds near SPS reefs. SPS prefers clean water, very clean water. While there are always exceptions if you use nature as an example you would not have a refugium on your SPS display
   
2. LPS/Softy tanks, While it is true that you will at times find seaweed in proximity to these corals you will not usually find massive beds for the simple reason that algae usually takes over any real estate that it can and they put off too much nutrients for the coral to thrive
   

Before i begin also keep in mind that seaweed in refugiums will at time go sexual and pollute your tank with nasty white stuff, it also has the same problem as bioballs where it will catch and keep detrius.

The argument that seaweed and refugiums remove nutrients is not totally true. it is simply another method of converting nutrients to something else. There have been studies done in nature to see how the nutrient conversion works and they actually found that the seaweed beds actually output more nutriens into the water than they remove. Considering they convert light and nutrients into growth this is not far fetched. As soon as the seaweed begins to grow it also has die off which simply puts the nutrients back in the water.

So if you keep a refugium be sure to trim your seaweed on a very regular basis. it may not blow up on you right away, but in the end there are more effective methods.

 

I think you should rethink this. The ocean is very big and the water moves around a lot. I thought I read somewhere that algae makes up most of the life mass in the ocean. Also, a refugium is a great source of food for SPS.

I have removed pounds of chaeto from my fuge in the five months my 180 has been setup. I wish I had a bigger refugium. My skimmer is tiny for my tank and I overfeed. Still, if I could, I would first increase the size of my fuge before my skimmer. My tank does not have an algae problem and my nitrates and phosphates are next to zero. I have not done a water change. Trust chaeto, it works.

[Mandinga]

The Europeans (Daniel Knop etc) have been using algae turf scrubbers for over 2 decades. I like J. Sprung's and Charles Delbeek's take on this subject, but it has also been done without refugiums/algae turf scrubbers.

 

"Refugium: I know a lot of you use them but... the data is mixed. Here are some thoughts

 

1. SPS tanks, in the wild you generally don't see seaweed beds near SPS reefs. SPS prefers clean water, very clean water. While there are always exceptions if you use nature as an example you would not have a refugium on your SPS display

2. LPS/Softy tanks, While it is true that you will at times find seaweed in proximity to these corals you will not usually find massive beds for the simple reason that algae usually takes over any real estate that it can and they put off too much nutrients for the coral to thrive"

 

-This makes some sense, but it's a weak hypothesis...using nature as an example as to how to filter out reef system is...well...impossible. The ocean covers over 76% of the earths surface. It has upswells of phytoplankton that feed shallow water critters, it produces over 50% of the earth's oxygen(phytoplankton+photosynthesis) and encompasses biotopes from the North Pole to the Tropical south Pacific.

 

He is correct when he says that you won't find this type of macroalgae growing on a pristine reef, but you will find it as close as a few miles away. Having a refugium in a separate tank IS just like emulating mother nature...they both share the same water, but they are separate.

 

Ask your friend what would happen if you eliminated ALL macroalgae from the ocean? Would there even be life? Eliminate Phytoplankton and life on earth ceases to exist...i dont know if seaweed/macroalgae is as important, but im sure that it does play a vital role in nature...

[grassi]

I like this thread. A good moment for some considerations.

 

The idea of looking at the nature first is a nice approach, a Zen approach we could say.

But unfortunately what we love and keep in our houses is just a representation of the nature. We are not trying to keep the ocean inside some glass.

 

Maybe because I'm from Europe, but I love refugiums :-) Cheato doesn't go sexual (or very rarely) and it is a great addition to our filtration, from what we know at this point.

My favorite author is another europeean guy, Thiel. He's still a good reading in 2010 even if he was a strong supporter of what we believe it is not working any more, like wet/dry filtration. In the last 25 years there was a "revolution" in reefkeeping and it is not far the day when LR was not trusted as a biological filter.

Things keep changing and every month we see new devices and gadgets. This is part of our hobby too.

 

Alluminum oxide, and ferric oxide too, are present in many products in our houses and also in our hobby. Toothpaste contains some, most of the abrasive materials, the tap water filters and so on. In some forms Al Oxide is used to produce Zeolite, which is less or more what the new euro-trendy Zeovit method uses.

 

As you said at the beginning of this post, it is a manner of finding the right setup for a given tank. Some products or technologies are proved to work relatively well for the average kind of tanks that we are running.

I think that the most common wrong approach in our hobby is to try to find a specific product to solve a problem. Got algae? ---> put a bigger skimmer. Or a media reactor. That's it.

Most of the devices and products can help to solve a problem only if they are used in sinergy and if we know well how they work and what is the influence in our little mass of water.