Past Bioballs to Refugiums and Degassing Towers

[Glazed]

Good discussions – I really appreciate the comments whether we agree or not. In my opinion it’s the best way to learn - research, word-of-mouth shared experiences, and basically trial and error.

 

I really like the idea of going natural and self sustaining as possible, and in fact it’s what drew me into the reef keeping experience. I’m all for getting away from the bioballs on the reef system, but honestly if my success is based on the efficient use of a protein skimmer, that’s becomes down right scary. I have not yet met a non-finicky skimmer. Refugiums on the other hand are very cool!

 

I believe that is the direction in which I would like to take our reef tank - remove the bioballs, incorporate a more user friendly skimmer, and develop a refugium for the system. With that in mind, and because I’m under a bit of time crunch pressure to move the present system (stimulus funds used by the end of June), I’m going to go ahead and use our student workforce to set it up soon; however, this is not to discourage the Club’s help, and in fact any redesign, change of plans, adaptations, etc. are still welcomed as topics of discussion and possible doable projects.

 

Lastly, I would like to begin a discussion on CO2 degassing towers, as a means to control algae growth – any thoughts on this subject?

[JManrow]

I hate to bring it up, but one of the purposes of the Trickle Filter "dry" area using bioballs was for CO2 degassing!DOH!(laugh)... so I won't.

 

Should we move beyond that too?

 

You are off to a good start Dennis, at getting the Calcium up to 350 to 450ppm, and Magnesium around 1350ppm.

 

When the skimmer is functioning more efficiently, it will lessen the amount of bioload waste to break down. This should definitely help lower your Nitrate. Is the skimmer that Kevin Erickson built completed and ready to set up? Sorry things got rushed when we had to finish our visit to make our OCAQ tours on time!

 

I am beginning feel the bioball issue should probably not be the main area of concern.

Emphasis should be on:

 

Lighting -

*There were two [age unknown] XM175/DB bulbs over the 100 gallon tank. There were also two 48" Actinics (wattage unknown).

These have been replaced with 2 brand new 175 watt SE 14K bulbs from ReefTech http://www.reef-tech.net/catalog_i10207154.html?catId=348243 Are these in the pendants over the 100 gallon reef in the student lab?

*The tank in the lobby has Power Compact lighting.

 

Water Motion - I seem to recall two powerheads(Aquaclear 800 and a Maxijet?) and two wooden air diffusers in he 100 gallon.

 

I do not recall what was being used for water motion in the lobby tank, other than the two canisters for filtration. If you are using Siporax or Fluval ceramic noodles in the filters, these are useful in denitrification, as they do have areas for anaerobic bacterial colonization, and the ability to help with both nitrification and denitrification.

 

Source Water -

You are currently using Natural Seawater. There may be a concern also of contaminants from the surrounding communities and farmlands upstream, etc., such as pesticides, fertilizers, and organic waste. I am presently consulting with Dana Riddle of Riddle Laboratories in Kailua-Kona, Hawaii. He uses an artificial seawater mix(Instant Ocean) and RO water in his tanks. Dana is author of the book "The Captive Reef", and is a well-know speaker at Marine Conferences, mainly on topics of Lighting and water motion on the reef and in the reef aquarium. Dana has a background in Wastewater Treatment Management. I am asking about most efficient methods to process NSW for use in the tropical tanks - ozonation prior to use, carbon filtration, use of iron oxide hydroxide phosphate binders, and so forth. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.php

 

Removal of crushed coral substrate -

This may be the main "detritus trap". No substrate is better than one that may be detrimental to the maintenace of the tank, and is probably contributing to the Cyanobacteria. The use of a filter sock should also prove useful.

[Glazed]

Moving forward

 

John, that’s a good one – I was actually thinking about a tower filled with bioballs along with having a good current of air flowing upward through the bioballs as water trickled downward to remove CO2. The funny part is about 10 seconds after posting the question about degassing I realized I was actually still advocating bioball use. (nutty)

 

Believe it or not, I’m really swaying away from their use, and as far as I am concerned, we can move beyond that subject; however I am curious, would removing CO2 from a system affect algae growth?

 

Skimmers: I have not yet utilized Kevin’s skimmer – but it’s on the agenda to hook it up to the new system.

 

Lighting: I am in the process of replacing bulbs

 

Source Water: I think this is a challenge we should further look into; however, EPA is pretty stringent on what allowed to be released into the bay. Still, I’m thinking the nutrient levels may be high as well as the load of microscopic animals not surviving the water temperature increase from 48F to 78F.

 

Removal of crushed coral substrate: I am working on changing the substrate, and we do use filter socks.

 

Again, the other thing I would like to set up is a refugium. (waving)

 

Dennis

[JManrow]

In response to correspondences with Dana Riddle, Riddle Laboratories, in regard to questions about use of Natural Seawater, pre-treating water with ozone, further filtration, etc. Also shared information about systems, lighting, water motion, skimmers:

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Re: Water treatment question for HMSC

 

Sent By:

Dana Riddle On: Apr 04/28/09 8:22 PM

To:John Manrow

Hi John,

 

As you are aware, organic compounds (such as pesticides) behave differently upon exposure to strong oxidants. Without knowing full details, use of ozone followed by activated carbon should help with the high molecular weight organics.

 

Try increasing water motion before increasing lighting. Water motion is SO under-rated. If you've got access to a PAR meter, light measurements of 200-300 microMol/m2/sec are probably OK.

 

Please keep me posted.

 

You say you're in Tigard now. Is Upscales still around - that was a GOOD shop. What about Kim Peters? Is he still around?

 

Mahalo!

Dana

---------------------------------------------------------------

[Barelycuda]

Dennis,

 

With all of the changes you are making to the tank why are you so intersted in CO2 degassing??? I am not aware of (or at least had conversations with) anyone in our current club that has incorporated one into their tank... Maybe it is a subject that I am a little undereducated on but it is not a topic of concern typically.

 

Just curious,

 

Dave

[Glazed]

Dave,

 

My interest, mostly curiosity stems from my very limited exposure to CO2 de-gassing; my natural desire (maybe obsession) to learn and improve; and my desire (definitely an obsession) to controlling algae within the reef system. I’m not opposed to the traditional methods – monitoring lighting, controlling nutrients and nitrates, cleaner inverts etc. – I’m just exploring in efforts to cover all of the possible bases.

 

I survived a week-long intensified recirculating aquaculture systems course in West Virginia a few years ago where the emphasis was on aquaculture and maintaining huge populations of fish within recirculating systems, hence high levels of CO2, the need to remove it, and the use of de-gassing towers to accomplish the task. Also, I understand how the standard wet/dry trickle system is a sort of mini-degassing system too, but I’m wondering if a full-blown, degassing tower could be applied to the ornamental fish keeping hobby. I believe it would be beneficial in a heavily fish populated system; however, because reef systems are not typically heavily stocked with fish, de-gassing of CO2 may not be necessary or even beneficial.

 

Also consider the practice of removing or lowering nutrient loads (nitrates) basically to starve out the algae, and so with that same thinking pattern, I wondered (total shot in the dark) if starving algae of their CO2 requirements might have the same affect. Keep in mind how our beneficial bacteria utilize CO2 as their carbon source, and how thrusting the good guys (the bacteria) into competition against the bad guys (algae) for CO2 consumption may not be the wisest thing to do.

 

Bottom line, I’m just “fishing” for thoughts on the subject.

[albertareef]

 

Source Water: I think this is a challenge we should further look into; however, EPA is pretty stringent on what allowed to be released into the bay. Still, I’m thinking the nutrient levels may be high as well as the load of microscopic animals not surviving the water temperature increase from 48F to 78F.

 

 

 

Again, the other thing I would like to set up is a refugium. (waving)

 

Dennis

 

Dennis - I think these are a couple of interesting and in some ways interrelated points. I definitely think you might be on to something here in questioning the water source for the tropical reef tank for a few reasons including the issue of possible contaminants, salinity fluxuations (can't remember if you adjust this or not), "inappropriate flora/fauna die off, and general organics levels. Obviously it would be more work but using RO/DI with a consistent salt mix might be a better approach. In which case... I would definitely think about adding the refugium to help establish a population of more appropriate micro flora/fauna. That could be jump started with some donations for existing systems. In combination with the other suggestions re circulation, skimming etc., I think you would be in pretty good shape.

[JManrow]

In response to correspondences with Dana Riddle, Riddle Laboratories, in regard to questions about use of Natural Seawater, pre-treating water with ozone, further filtration, etc. Also shared information about systems, lighting, water motion, skimmers:

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Re: Water treatment question for HMSC

 

Sent By:

Dana Riddle On: Apr 04/28/09 8:22 PM

To:John Manrow

Hi John,

 

As you are aware, organic compounds (such as pesticides) behave differently upon exposure to strong oxidants. Without knowing full details, use of ozone followed by activated carbon should help with the high molecular weight organics.

 

Try increasing water motion before increasing lighting. Water motion is SO under-rated. If you've got access to a PAR meter, light measurements of 200-300 microMol/m2/sec are probably OK.

 

Please keep me posted.

 

You say you're in Tigard now. Is Upscales still around - that was a GOOD shop. What about Kim Peters? Is he still around?

 

Mahalo!

Dana

---------------------------------------------------------------

Dennis,

How about running ozone overnight on some fresh NSW(natural seawater), run carbon on it, and try it out in a smaller holding tank? You can also make adjustments of Ca, Mg, levels. Then try a few test inverts - snails, hermits, and macroalgae, etc. from your local fish store, or when we visit.

 

What is the Specific Gravity/Salinity of the NSW you are using. Do you have an ozone generator, PAR meter, or any other specialized equipment?

[Barelycuda]

Dennis,

 

Thank you for the feedback. This has not been a topic of discussion while I have been around this club for the last 3+ years. Very intersting about the CO2 levels in a heavily loaded system. As you may know I have the clownhouse out in the back yard that would rival amost anyone when it comes to stocking density vs. water volume I have always fought algae in the system but have mostly always contributed it to the high levels of organics and bioload. I run a very large skimmer, ozone, LR, fluidized bed, refugium, and frequent water changes to try to combat the algae and nitrates but I am now most definately going to do some more research on CO2 degassing.

 

Thank you,

 

Dave

[JManrow]

Here are a few links that may be helpful Dave. A Portland marine fish wholesaler, TMI(Tropical Marine Imports) used a huge trickle column in their operation back around 1990. You may want to look into aquaculture suppliers and publications. Other than that, I don't believe much has been written on the subject since then.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/3680/Counter-Flow-Degassing-Columns

http://cdserver2.ru.ac.za/cd/011120_1/Aqua/Clownfish/WEB%20VERSION/system_design.htm

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~delbeek/reefaq2.html

[Glazed]

John,

 

Our saltwater coming off the bay varies with the amounts of rain and runoff into the bay; however, the physical plant guys try to pump water into the reservoirs at the highest salinities levels. Typically, we maintain 32ppt, and within the tropical, marine aquariums the salinity may fluctuate between 28 and 32ppt.

 

We do not have an ozone generator, PAR meter, or any other specialized equipment.

 

Again, I've been concerned for some time about the quality of saltwater coming into the facility. Obviously, for the flow-through systems there are few problems. It's pretty amazing how just overnight any water remaining within the hose utilized for saltwater delivery goes anaerobic and we have a good amount of hydrogen sulfide build up. This is why we aerate our heated saltwater reservoirs.

 

So, obviously we have plenty of living "stuff" coming in with the water, and this indeed may be the biggest challenge whether the stuff coming in survives or not the raise in temperature from around 48F to 78F. Cleaning up the water will be a big challenge too.

[Krux]

Adequate flow within the tank coupled with aggressive skimming will take care of CO2 exchange for you in all but the most crowded systems.... holding tanks for importers and breeders for example. If there is enough movement within the display to allow the water to ripple on the top excess CO2 will naturally work its way out very efficiently. Along with heat exchange, this transfer of gasses is the main reason that the hobby moved away from glass or plastic sealed tops on tanks. Before I went to the expense of constructing a degassing tower, I would borrow some equipment and monitor the CO2 saturation of the water... it may not actually be a problem at all.

[Glazed]

Concerning CO2 build-up to a point where the CO2 directly and negatively affects the animals, I believe this is not a problem within this system – there are ample opportunities for CO2 exchange. However, concerning algae growth, I’m just wondering if there is enough CO2 in the system to positively affect their growth, or even if the algae utilizes it before the CO2 has the chance to off-gas. Honestly, I am certain CO2 is not the major contributing factor to algae growth, but if I could throw together an inexpensive de-gassing tower and apply it to the system, next to costs, is there a downside to this? Can it cause harm to the system? If not, and especially if the CO2 de-gassing tower positively contributes to the health of the animals and the system, would it not be a successful experiment?

[Barelycuda]

Dennis,

 

I think it would be cool to see if the CO2 is a contributing factor to the algae. You are making several changes to the system so are you going to give those changes sufficient time to see if they are working? If you made no changes to the existing system other than adding a degassing tower and the algae was reduced or eliminated then I would say the experiment is a success but how do you evaluate its effectiveness with the other changes to the system?

 

I am following this thread fairly closely as it may pertain to the clownhouse as well.

 

Thank you for bringing these new topics to light. With your present facility and systems we are looking at issues that may or may not normally be discussed in the typical reef tank realm.

 

Dave

[Glazed]

Dave,

 

Good point Dave, I had not thought it out that far. Wow! I am making quite a few changes – moving away from bioballs; changing substrate from crushed coral to sand; plumbing in a refugium; switching out old lights for new; and adding a de-gassing tower – again, Wow!

 

I too would like to know what exact affect the de-gassing tower has; and I don’t want to advocate the positive or negative benefits without being somewhat certain. How about this game plan: I make the changes listed above, but valve or by-pass the degassing tower for sometime (not certain how long to wait) to check what affects the other changes have made on the system, and then bring the degassing tower on-line?

 

As for bringing new topics to light, that is the part of my job I enjoy very much, second only to what I enjoy most - talking with clients, club members, and other ornamental fish enthusiasts. My goal is fish health through a sound fish health management plan which incorporates an overall operating system utilizing sound principles, efficient operations, and ease-of-husbandry-care. I find the best away to achieve this goal is to challenge the present “proven to be the best way of doing things” principles or methods. Either the status quo is confirmed or we learn a better way of doing it. I work with many students and the two things I stress are number one, never believe you know it all, and number two, always be open for exploration of new and better methods to supplying our aquatic animal’s needs.

[JManrow]

Sorry, but I feel the degassing tower is going to as unnecessary on the system as a trickle filter with bioballs, as it does the same thing. Sufficient water motion and open surface area for proper gas exchange will accomplish this anyway. Does anyone else feel this way?

 

 

 

I would also like to say that while I feel a tower may not accomplish much in this particular system, a degassing tower or trickle filter would probably be very useful in a system such as Dave's that has a large fish-only population with heavy feedings. The batch denitrator in the clownhouse sounds great too!

[reefboy]

I know you guys are busy but if sombody was to donate a R.O unit and setup a reservoir also donated would you be willing make saltwater? this to me is the easiest fix and with the same type of setup I use at home that takes minimal time on your part then we would use this when we come to clean and we could also setup a holding tank for top-off .This in my opinion is the only wrought that will really work long term.

[Krux]

Sorry, but I feel the degassing tower is going to as unnecessary on the system as a trickle filter with bioballs, as it does the same thing. Sufficient water motion and open surface area for proper gas exchange will accomplish this anyway. Does anyone else feel this way?

 

 

 

I would also like to say that while I feel a tower may not accomplish much in this particular system, a degassing tower or trickle filter would probably be very useful in a system such as Dave's that has a large fish-only population with heavy feedings. The batch denitrator in the clownhouse sounds great too!

 

Personally I agree with you John. If CO2 was a factor in algae growth, in so much as the system was overloaded, the pH of the tank would be through the floor, and there would be problems with maintaining alkalinity. It is almost unheard of in a saltwater tank to have an algae bloom caused by CO2 (this isn't like fresh water where the misconception jumps over from) because excess CO2 pushes down pH, which dissolves calcium carbonate, which raises alkalinity, calcium, and pH, bringing it back into equilibrium... It is nigh impossible in an open display aquarium system to saturate the water with enough CO2 to have an impact on algae growth for this reason.

 

I don't want to stifle creativity, but as I stated earlier, except in breeding or shipping operations where you are packing fish into water at densities hundreds of times greater than we would observe as "normal" for a reef display, CO2 can never really have an impact, as it can work its own way to equilibrium very easily, either via atmospheric exchange, or dissolution in the water column.

 

It just doesn't make sense to me in this instance, unless all other options have been exhausted, to waste any time and energy on construction and implementation of the device (unless it is solely for amusement, and is not expected to have any impact whatsoever).

 

That being said, following the above posts, make sure to do one change at a time, so you can monitor what positive AND negative effects each change will have on the stability of the system.

 

EDIT: Not trying to be a downer, just being realistic, and trying to help focus limited resources

[JManrow]

I know you guys are busy but if sombody was to donate a R.O unit and setup a reservoir also donated would you be willing make saltwater? this to me is the easiest fix and with the same type of setup I use at home that takes minimal time on your part then we would use this when we come to clean and we could also setup a holding tank for top-off .This in my opinion is the only wrought that will really work long term.

 

The simplest solution to the water quality issue may be using RO water and an artificial seawater mix. I feel that the quality of the water we will be using on the tropical marine tanks may be the key issue.

 

Looking at the the alternative, using raw sand-filtered bay water, would it be possible to get an idea of what contaminants are present in Yaquina Bay water?

Would the EPA lab have an analysis of what we would be dealing with? http://www.epa.gov/wed/pages/facilities/newportfacilities.htm#Chemical%20Analysis%20Capability

 

If organics could first be oxidized with ozone, could the remaining contaminants be then sufficiently filtered out with activated carbon and GFO for use with tropical marine invertebrates, particularly the corals?

 

Dennis, would it be possible for you to ask someone at the EPA Newport Facilities about this, or at least get a copy of an analysis of Yaquina Bay water, showing contaminants? If I had at least this analysis, I could see if Dana Riddle might be of help dealing with it, if there were a few more details. http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2009/Testimony/GM272_testimony_HTH_03-11-09.pdf

[reef165]

Ok, Im just an ordinary guy that loves the hobby and really dosnt have any biolagy schooling to speak of but dosnt alge use co2 and produce oxegen when the lights are on and yes the oposite when lights are off, and arnt the corals were growing in our aquariums alge based creatures? So in my head Im thinking that the co2 although it is good for the unsightly green alge, isnt it also good for our corals?

If you are haveing alge prob and are using natural saltwater, could it be pos. that theres a heavy metal prob. with the water being used?

I also agree that changing to much at a time will lead to not knowing what the prob is/was

 

Just my 2cents

[Glazed]

To CO2 de-gas or not to de-gas, that is the question, or maybe not. CO2 de-gassing is most beneficial in heavily stocked "fish only" systems; that seems to be a proven fact. The question was if de-gassing would be beneficial in a reef system to control unsightly algae. Considering algae does consume CO2, then obviously restricting the CO2 available may, and I repeat, may have a positive or negative affect on the algae depending on how you look at it.

 

As for our corals being algae based, and please correct me if I'm wrong, corals are animals that utilize oxygen; however the zooxanthellae that live within the tissues of the corals, through the process of photosynthesis (thus utilizing CO2), provide the corals with oxygen, essential to the survival of all living things. Would a de-gassing chamber negatively affect the zooxanthellae – that may be a better question. Unfortunately, I will not be able to answer that question based on the reef system I have. I’ve decided not to incorporate a de-gassing chamber.

 

The quality of the sea water coming in from the bay may indeed be the underlying cause of excessive algae growth in the tank. Again, unfortunately, making our own sea water from mix is just not a feasible or viable option for us. As for checking with EPA on Yaquina Bay water analysis, that’ll take some time, but is well worth checking into.

 

Update on the reef tank: I’ve taken down the old system and replace it with an 80 gallon long reef tank, and a 40 gallon refugium. I’ve eliminated the bio-balls, improved the lighting, and added a very nice skimmer created by one of the Aquarium Science students (Kevin). Also, we are maintaining magnesium, calcium, alkalinity, salinity, and temperature levels where they should be; however, I have not yet replaced the bag holding the phosphate remover. The system is running well, however it is experiencing a pretty good algae bloom (imagine that). I’ll adjust feed amounts and the time the lights stay on. Next, when moving the tank critters over to the new system I discovered I had no snails and only one hermit crab left – replenishing the tank cleaners will be the next step. Also, the macroalgae is doing well, and I’m looking into acquiring more of it – anything but Caulerpa.

 

Lastly, I have not heard much on the Club’s further involvement with the tank. Is this still an option?

[JManrow]

Right now we have a team of volunteers for maintaining the tropical tanks at HMSC. "Dsoz" has a 7 passenger van to carpool to Newport.

We would like to have a plan of what exactly needs to be done before we arrive to work on the tanks. A few of us are keeping a eye out for an ozone generator for treating the bay water. This should oxidize many of the organics, and hopefully break down some substances for more effective removal with carbon, skimmer, ion exchange resins, etc. Did you remove the crushed coral substrate from the system? Will you be needing more powerheads for circulation? Could you give us some info on the setup in the visitor center lobby? Thanks!

 

Our big speaker meeting will be this Saturday, June 6th. Hey, did you get the fliers sent regarding this weekends event? I would be great if some of the folks from HMSC and OCAQ could attend!

 

I know that preparations for this has been occupying a great deal of my time lately! After this weekend, we should have some time to focus more attention on the HMSC tanks! We do have other species of macroalgae that we can add.

[Glazed]

Great to hear the Club is still interested in helping maintain our reef tanks. I understanding being extremely busy and preoccupied. This remodeling project is taking up 99.9% of my time. Hopefully by the end of June everything will be up and running again.

 

I have distributed the flyers, and wish I could attend, but I have a previous engagement that I must attend. As for others from HMSC attending, keep in mind the following week is the last week of the school term and many are deeply involved in studying for finals.

 

I did remove the crushed coral, and the only thing I had available to replace it with was sand, not aragonite or crushed coral (so I realize I have to keep an eye on alkalinity-buffering levels. We have lots of power heads available, and in fact, in addition to having several water-in lines to the main tank, I have added two power heads. There’s tons of circulation within the main tank. Again, next to cleaning up the replacement sea water, acquiring cleaner animals and macro algae are the big challenges.

 

The Visitor Center reef tank is a very basic set-up

Two canister filters, two power heads, aragonite or crushed coral substrate, live rock

Compact fluorescents: four pin, long or horizontal, not square, 2 Daylight and 2 actinic all 65 Watts

Inhabitants: Yellow Tank, Scribbled Rabbit Fish, Orange Spot Watchmen Goby, three Ocellaris clowns, a cleaner shrimp, a coral banded shrimp, and one hermit crab.

 

Take care