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Vancop

Fustrated and Confused ??

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I seem to have good initial results from the poly filter. It is the cheapest way to test IMO and if it shows then get better test to find out how bad. Again, JMO $ is hard to come by, doesn't grow on tree's you know....lol. I don't get that, where does the paper come from then?

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it looks like this

 

polyfilter.jpg

 

i have seen it all over at stores

 

doubles as filter floss for a prefilter for your sump, i wish they would make socks out of it

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It was the tank and rocks ....learned this as I was loading the system into my truck....I replaced the sand ....but used the same rocks.

 

If it were me and I bought this from an LFS, I would be back in the store daily demanding that they do something about it. As I understand it, and I may be wrong but, once copper is in the tank and/or rocks, it's NEVER coming out. Even if you replace all of the rock, the copper gets into the silicone and will never come out. You will not be able to keep anything but fish in that tank. This is the risk you take buying a used system. IMHO this LFS should have disclosed this before loading it into your truck. Unless they are totally clueless, they had no business selling this to you if they knew your were going to set up a reef system.

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Yes, the one Krux posted is exactly what I am talking about. No comment on Steelhead's post as he may very well be right. I have been pretty lucky and only had a little copper in my tank thanx to a bad decision but it was removed within a day or so. MAJOR water changes back to back to back to back...sorry got stuck there, you get the point

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I do....and I was clueless to copper when i bought the tank....and I explained to the store when i bought it whats its purpose was ...REEF /FISH The final instructions as I was leaving was ...oh..this tank had copper in it...so use lots of carbon for the first few weeks and that will remove it. Not saying the store ...unless its in a PM and it wasn't CHorse. ( only mention that name as I have mentioned them before and don't want any negative towards them )

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Yeah I would head right out and pick up the filter pad. Before losing anymore money in corals and such. Bet I know what store it was(whistle)

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I would not put any more copper sensitive live stock into that tank. I don't think that you will have much luck with any of the poly filter.

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Was referring identify if that is the cause. For clarification the poly filter will not remove copper. only tell you if it is there.

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Thats how I understood it ....I know the test kits will not go low enough...but maybe it will give me a better answer if copper is present.....before I decide which route to go from here...and least expensive way to start for now.

 

I will not introduce any more livestock coral/fish/invert until this is resolved.

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good idea. I would hate for your frusterations to build over something that could have been detected and hopefully dealt with without further loss.

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IME copper definately makes live rock pretty much useless in a reeftank. The tank however usually does fine if cleaned well.

I have had a few tanks in the past that were once copper treated and after a good cleaning have done really well as reef tanks. I definately wouldn't risk the rock or anything else that heavy metals can settle into such as aquarium ornaments, substrait, or equipment.

Try setting up a small new 10g tank to sort of mimic your display. Make sure that you use the same water that you would use in your display, i.e. mix it the same and use the same source, not the tank water itself. Then add a couple of snails to the tank and see how they do for a couple of weeks. If they do well then add some of your displays live rock. If they die, then you might be able to just get rid of your live rock and sort of restart your tank with good live rock and live sand that you know doesn't have copper in it.

Or just sort of start over by setting up a temp tank for your inhabitants, getting rid of your rock, sand, and anything that heavy metals could saturate, clean the tank really well and then mix up some new saltwater and see if that does the trick.

 

Lots of options but I really do think that you probably are having an issue with copper.

 

 

Garrett

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Copper is a heavy metal, and thus will not be readily absorbed by carbon. You need to run a product such as cuprisorb if there is copper in the tank.

 

was it just the tank that had copper treated in it, or was it also the rocks and substrate? it could leach out of the rocks for years if those are also tainted.

 

IMHO you have too many filtration processes removing things that are likely not the root of the problem. Adding more and more will not allow you to narrow down the issue.

 

I second the idea for Cuprisorb. I dont think it will fix your issues, but I bet it will help until and after, you get new live rock.

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someone mentioned silicone, indeed it can leach into the silicone over time, but if you get new stuff and lay a fresh bead after a VERY thorough cleaning it will lock it in fairly well. With no biological activity in the silicone, transfer back to the water will me minimal if at all.

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someone mentioned silicone' date=' indeed it can leach into the silicone over time, but if you get new stuff and lay a fresh bead after a VERY thorough cleaning it will lock it in fairly well. With no biological activity in the silicone, transfer back to the water will me minimal if at all.[/quote']

 

Exactly. Your tank is definately capable of sustaining a reef as long as it has a good cleaning and the extra bead of silicon would definately be a good precaution.

 

Lots of good ideas and suggestions on here just don't give up on it!

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I think you are looking in the wrong place, back to your first post "Started in Jan 09 used Tap water" . You should start a tank with ro/di water regardless of where it comes from. You have no Idea whats in the water from the well even if you have a filter system for your tap water.

The corals you mentioned do not do well in a new tank, I wasnt never able to keep xenia for the first few years same with frogspawn. As for the turbo snails the tank wouldn't support 3-4 of those much less 10! there isn't enough food for them

Time to fall back and regroup I think maybe slow down a little

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Forgot to mention my experience with this. When I started my tank in'02 I used a garden hose to fill it. I had nothing but trouble for 2 years, was about to give up. Then I tore it down moved it and refilled it with ro/di, same rock, some sand some new and the tank was 100% different, thriving coral that were barely alive before, have rarely lost a fish, no extreme algae problems

good luck

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I think you are looking in the wrong place, back to your first post "Started in Jan 09 used Tap water" . You should start a tank with ro/di water regardless of where it comes from. You have no Idea whats in the water from the well even if you have a filter system for your tap water.

The corals you mentioned do not do well in a new tank, I wasnt never able to keep xenia for the first few years same with frogspawn. As for the turbo snails the tank wouldn't support 3-4 of those much less 10! there isn't enough food for them

Time to fall back and regroup I think maybe slow down a little

 

This is a very good point. Starting with RO/DI water is a pretty good call in your case once you get everything resetup if that is the route you decide to go. I personally have no issues with using tap water but that is not the case for many and RO/DI never hurts. I do think that a heavy metal, whether in your tap water or previously used in your tank is likely the culprate so the above advice of testing for copper and its elimination is a good idea.

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If nothing else its the cheapest way to start ruling out whats wrong, you already have the ro/di unit. I wouldn't use corals as a test for the tank, they can die for any number of reasons. I have some clove polyup, kenya tree and colt coral you can have. these are easy corals and if they "grow" rapidly as they should you will be on your way, you can remove them later

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If it were me, I would still be pounding on the LFS's door that sold you this. With all of the other issues that go with being a newbie and building a new reef system, this is not an issue you should have to deal with right off the bat. If you bought this from a private party, then I'd say caveat emptor, but you didn't, and IMO the LFS should make things right.

 

As far as a four month old system not supporting xenia, frogspawn etc, my system is exactly four months and 5 days old and I've had both xenia and several different heads of frogspawn along with a couple anemones and a bunch of other corals (some from Garrett) positively thriving in my tank for at least 2 1/2 months. Of course, maybe I just got lucky and as always, YMMV.

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Thanks for the advice..lots to look at but it seems to be pointing back to a commn denominator....copper or heavy metals. As I mentioned I am off a well thats 750" deep and I'm at 1700 feet elevation....so my water supply is way above that of the city's water..I had my water tested for Nitrates and Phosphates from the tap with 0 results in both.....that being said, I was informed that I would not need a RO system but would definetely need a DI system. I had my RO/DI system modified ( LFS advised ) were the RO membrane was removed and DI only with a pre filter used. This has been installed on my ATO and what I use for water changes approx 3 weeks into this tank. I lose about 1-2 gallons a day in evaporation.

 

As to the 90 gallon...at this point ...I will get some of the recommended media and see what it shows regarding copper or metals in the water....The snails.....I know there not starving as there are usually diatoms every few days accumulating on the walls....I have a feeling they are subject to a slow poisioning as mentioned. I will be going slow and just might take a water sample in to a local lab for metal testing....straight from the tap.

 

Here is another observation I have been watching.....I have another tank, that has finished cycling ...a 125 gallon DT with a 55 gallon fuge and 55 gallon sump that has completed its cycle. I cycled it with no lights and no fish.....the water was straight from the DI tap....same salt...and the rocks were " nuked" prior to placement. Nuked meaning heavy bleach soak for a few days...then several water changes ....then a baking soda soak for days ...then a drying peroid ( learned this from another forum )

 

The sand was new and the skimmer has not been running. I installed the lights about 2 weeks ago and lit it up.....the diatoms came as expected ....but not really bad. I placed a small clean up crew..snails / crabs into the tank....the water today tests perfect...almost an exact match to the 90...except no nitrates...after a week....and still some diatoms in the tank.....the turbos are in shut down mode( after a good week of heavy cleaning )...same senerio as in the 90 gallon tank. I also moved the frog spawn into this tank...and it hasn't opened....I bought a CoCo worm ( told was ok ) and it came out for about 30 minutes ....4 days later it died. Currently there is a small clown and a sailfin tang ( who i never see eat ) in the 125 tank.

 

So the only difference in these two tanks are ....the 125 was started with DI only water....not tap like the 90 was. the 125 has a Halide system...830 watts total...the 90 has 6X54 324 watts....the rocks in the 125 were totally nuked....WHITE rocks....no life on the rocks....basically base rock. But...the FS is not opening ....and the snails showing same symptoms as the 90.....there must be a water problem from the source......I agree...copper...silicates...???

 

I am thinking I should get the RO unit back up and running ?? Does the RO part of the unit assist with this issue.....was told the DI would be sufficient ?? Was told to change the DI media after about 500 gallons of use?? I will be adding the poly media this week.

 

I know I'm, going a little fast...but due to some circumstances beyond my control...I am intentionally pushing the envelope a little here, and am willing to suffer the consequences. Just trying to keep it at a minimum. The tanks are used as a Therapy tool for my 42 yr old wife who is recovering from several strokes ...and the prognosis of the condition is terminal. So yes I am going a little fast, but I have seen faster with better results. This whole process is causing her to " think, plan, maintain and manage" which as you all know require alot of work. This is her life now as she is permantly disabled and cannot return to work of even drive. But she is happy with it...and enjoys the adventure.

 

Thanks again for the help....all is appreciated.

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If it were my tank... I would use the rock and sand in a FOWLR (fish only with live rock) tank. This could also be used as a very nice quarantine tank for fish too!. Copper binds with carbonates and may only show in water tests when it is released by drops in pH. Cuprisorb may temporarily make the tank habitable for some inverts, but needs to be frequently replaced on a regular basis. Copper will show green on the Polyfilter. Chances are you will never be able to remove all the copper from your coral rock, sand, and shells. Carbon and Bleach will not remove copper.

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I spoke with Issiac today and he provided me with lots of possibilities.....so far I am waiting for a Copper test and will do some water changes with his water and start from there..will also introduce the poly fiber when it arrives....he was out of both...and to far to drive all over Portland in the time frame I have during days.

 

He also provide me with some powdered Heavy Metal remover and will give it a go.....but all things in sequence. I will keep all updated.

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anecdotally, bleach needs to be countered with vinegar, then baking soda... bleach is a base so baking soda won't do much to it. alternately a good rinse and a few days in the sun will evaporate it out

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