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steelhead77

Ich or anemone stings?

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I am quoting GreenBean on Reef Central in saying that it is the only true method. He is a marine biologist' date=' over 20 years experience, and has 50 some thousand posts on RC, that is an active research scientist in this field. He says that other methods work, maybe some times, maybe most of the time, but Copper and Hyposalinity are the only methods that work 100% of the time, without fail. Not just my opinion, opinion of people that are at the top of the field.[/quote']

 

All i was trying to say is that there are other methods to reach the same end result:D. It is still his opinion. It is not a fact. If he himself says that other methods work, then it obviously is not the only method. I respect his opinion and agree that when it comes down to it copper is a sure fire way to rid ich, if done so properly. The problem is, that the majority of people don't do a copper treatment or hyposalinity properly. That is why it is not %100 surefire. Its great to recommend a treatment, but if you are going to recommend it you should at least explain the process in its entirety. I just have a hard time when people say there is only one way to do something, when clearly that is not the case. It's great to tell someone to throw their fish in a quarantine, but it is equally important to tell them how to do it right. Unfortunately, following only the instructions on the copper treatment is not enough to be successful. Let us not forget that there are more than one form of copper for treatment as well.

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All i was trying to say is that there are other methods to reach the same end result:D. It is still his opinion. It is not a fact. If he himself says that other methods work' date=' then it obviously is not the only method. I respect his opinion and agree that when it comes down to it copper is a sure fire way to rid ich, if done so properly. The problem is, that the majority of people don't do a copper treatment or hyposalinity properly. That is why it is not %100 surefire. Its great to recommend a treatment, but if you are going to recommend it you should at least explain the process in its entirety. I just have a hard time when people say there is only one way to do something, when clearly that is not the case. It's great to tell someone to throw their fish in a quarantine, but it is equally important to tell them how to do it right. Unfortunately, following only the instructions on the copper treatment is not enough to be successful. Let us not forget that there are more than one form of copper for treatment as well.[/quote']

 

The other issue at play here is how do you actually define success in this case. As Biker indicates, if you want to completely rid your system of the pathogen in all it's life cycle forms then you need to aggressively quarantine and treat every specimen that you add to your system - which may or may not be practical for everyone. If, however, your goal is to try and reduce the chance of a severe or fatal breakout of the pathogen, then there are other, approaches (primarily through reducing stress responses) which often help fish recover and lead asymptomatic lives in our systems. Again - no right or wrong answers, just different approaches and ultimate goals... which one you choose will probably depend on your resources and patience. In the case of severe infections, some sort of isolation and aggressive treatment may be unavoidable if you want to save the fish. Individual success in that approach, however, seems to vary a lot.

 

FWIW...

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Yes i completely agree, for most it is not viable to have 2 stand alone set ups one for coral and lr and the other for fish. You would have to do this to ensure that you don't introduce it to your tank, not to mention you would have to let your tank cycle for 6-8 weeks with nothing in it to ensure there was none present in the live sand or live rock when you first set-up your tank. If you don't do that step, then it would be impossible to guarantee your tank was ich free. To be 100% ich free you have to be ich free from the start and follow specific guidelines throughout the life of your tank to ensure 100% ich free. It is not something you can just decide to do after your tank is already set up.

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I had to orange skunks that had ich and I tried every product on the market but the only thing that worked was a method called hypo salinity where you drop the salinity in a hospital tank very low and it kills the ich, worked for me! there are threads about it on R.C.(flame)

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unfortunately i did decide to make my tank ich free after it was up and running for several months. i had to tear the tank down, catch every fish and run fallow for 8 weeks, with fish in a QT with coppersafe and a slight hyposalinity, around 1.015.

 

as far as my recommendations for treatment. a QT tank is a must.

 

in QT tank remove any carbon from filtration (it will remove medicine). copper safe is a great product, that can be double dosed without harm to fish, so is a safe brand of copper treatment. i start out running 1.5ppm, as suggested. if that doesnt seem like enough i up it to 2.5, and have repeated increase as high as 3.5ppm. in addition to copper treatment i used a slight hyposalinity. i run my QT tank at 1.015 for two reasons: fish are less stressed at these levels, and it makes it more difficult for parasites to survive. a true hyposalinity treatment is around 1.008-1.009. maintain water quality by doing water changes according to copper treatment directions. my QT doesnt even have a filter, just powerheads, heater and light. water changes are all i do to keep things healthy.

 

when moving between tanks, try to match pH and temperature as much as possible. on fish with major infestations, i do a freshwater dip in a 5 gallon bucket. assess the fish's activity and energy levels before doing this. if they are very lethargic, don't freshwater dip, it will cause them too much stress and may kill them. for other fish, do the dip. in the bucket make sure pH and temp are the same as the tank. methylene blue is great to add to the bucket, in a stronger than recommended concentration. they recommend something like 4 drops per gallon, i do like 20. methylene blue kills a lot of the ich, as well as helps keep the fish calm.

 

when in QT copper treatment will kill the ich in a matter of a few days. the fish will look better, but if you put them back in the display tank, they will be sick in days. in order to rid the tank of ich, you need to run it fallow (without fish) for 6 weeks, and i run 8 weeks to be sure, since you have already dealt with the hassle of the treatment.

 

be cautious with fish, some, such as mandarins will not respond well in copper. i may have forgotten some things, but this is the general idea behind my treatment.

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UV only works on what passes by the light. So while alot will go passed it it dosen't mean everything will.

 

Not saying UV is a bad thing it just isn't a cure either.

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also, UV can only kill ich in the tomant stage, or the freeswimming stage. should note that uv effectiveness is measured by exposure and contact time. this means that the wattage, length and diameter of skimmer, and flow rate, will determine its kill rate, and ich is pretty high on the chart for kill rate needed.

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um, yes? that depends. how many watts? how long, how big diameter? what gph are you going to run through it? it will not shorten the "fallow period" of the display tank, but will be good insurance to help make sure everything in the tank is killed.

 

also i might add that increasing the temp in display and QT will allow the ich life cycle to be faster, and therefore kill more cycles faster. this may not sound good, but it is.

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SO do you also quarantine all corals and everything else you add to your tank? have you experienced any losses in quarantine or am i alone on that one? Good info too by the way :D. The only thing I could add to your recommendations is to test ammonia twice daily as it can creep up very quickly ime.

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yes ammonia can creep up. i do not QT corals, i just A: get them private and assess tanks and B: scrub them before adding. i know to truly rid my tank i would have to QT corals as well, but i dont have the desire to do so because of the people i get corals from. i have lost several fish in QT, mostly green chromis, which are finaky anyway. but have lost a couple others as well.

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