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Serious Problems...help me out.

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drock59

 

[/url] Serious Problems...help me out.

I am having problems with my BB tank and I cant figure out what is going wrong. About two months ago, all my corals started lightening up and several died. Ive lost A. Tenius (sp), bonsai and a green cap. Nothing has changed.

 

Calcium-420-440

Alk-10.2

Ph. 7.98-8.09

Mag. 1400

Nit-0

PO4-?

 

 

Question 1: Do barebottom tanks need less light/ is my light too much for my tank? I have dual Bluewave HQI 250w, Reef Optix III reflectors about six inches off the water on my standard 75g. My photoperiod is about 5 hours with BLV 20k bulbs.

 

Question 2: Is my system too sterile? Ive been feedin what I consider heavy for the last month and have seen nothing positive for the corals, only more algea. When I make water changes, the water coming out is clearer than the water I put back in.

 

 

With all this frustration, I am considering going back to a sand bed that I ran successfully before BB. Any insight that will help correct my problem is appreciated.

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#6 impur

Quote:

I think you are misunderstand how I understand BB methadology

 

Possibly. I've done quite a bit of reading on it since i plan to go that route on my next tank. From the threads i've read, the ppl that do not cook their rock (i don't recall if you did, but i think you skipped this part) have their flow so that the bulk of the detrius and other crap coming out of the rock settles to one area and they syphon it out very frequently. This continues for several months, sometimes up to 6 months or more. You first have to clear the hurdle of your rock sloughing off all that stuff that has built up inside it for hundres of years. Then the bacteria takes over, colonizing the areas that it previously could not because of all that crap built up. After you get over that hurdle, the goal is to keep the detrius (since there is far less now than in the beginning) suspended for your skimmer.

 

Of the ppl on RC i've read that went BB they do weekly or more frequest WCs for a sold 3-6 months.

 

If you want some additional help than here at this site, i'd suggest PM'ing Bomber or at RC. He seems to be the resident expert on BB.

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11 H20cooled

 

 

 

#15 drock59

 

I need to make something clear i think. This problem has been persistant. I have searched and searched the forums. THere are others having this problem and none have come to a resolution. I would like to be the one who does.

 

Not trying to be rude but please dont treat me like I am a newb that doesnt ever check my levels and doesnt take care his tank. All of the levels have been constant throughout this ordeal and all the test levels are recent, as of yesterday with exception of PO4 that was done today.

 

Quote:

So, they are not so much bleaching as they are just getting lighter then?

 

The ones that died, bleached big time. The other corals have been turning a pastel color over a long period of time...3-4 months.

 

Quote:

Its not the lighting and sand is not the anwser,something else is stressing the corals out,if it was mine I would double check everything but it sounds to me like you just miss your sand and if that is the cause then just go back to it.

 

How does this have anything to do with my problem. Isnt this just common sense. If everything is stable and all my levels are good it must be "something" else. Duh, now the question is what is that something else?

 

I will bust out the magnifying glass again, just to quadruple check.

 

If you think im being snitty, sorry, just frustrated with this prolonged problem.

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#18 theron

Quote:

Originally Posted by drock59

Question 1: Do barebottom tanks need less light/ is my light too much for my tank? I have dual Bluewave HQI 250w, Reef Optix III reflectors about six inches off the water on my standard 75g. My photoperiod is about 5 hours with BLV 20k bulbs.

 

 

I don't think so. I have a BB 90 gallon with 2 400 20K XMs. Photoperiod is 6 hours a day. My corals started to lighten up, but that is a good thing. They were brown before. Corals look healthy.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by drock59

Question 2: Is my system too sterile? Ive been feedin what I consider heavy for the last month and have seen nothing positive for the corals, only more algea. When I make water changes, the water coming out is clearer than the water I put back in.

 

 

Not for sure about this one, but I don't think so. If you are heavy feeding and algea growing I would think you water is not too sterile.

 

I have some amount of algea growing and my phosphates measure 0 also.

 

Are you sure nothing has changed at all? New closed loop pump or anything? Your current levels look good, but could something have spiked two months ago that you did not notice that caused stress on some corals.

 

I don't know if adding sand back would be better. Maybe another change to the system would not be good right now. If nothing is dieing right now maybe you don't have a serious problem. Just corals changing color.

 

Theron

 

#20 Lowman

 

I think Izzypop is having the same trouble with his, all his lps and softies are doing great, but his sps are doing the same thing yours are doing. Maybe he has some input on this problem that may help

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drock59

Lowman thanks. I talked to izzypop today. he is having the same problem and taking a pro active approach to fixing it. Im sure when he figures something out whenever he finds something.

 

Nothing says fun like threats from moderators. Geez, im just trying to say I generally know what I am doing. smile.gif

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22 Lowman

I hope you guys get it figured out, I was considering going to a bb myself, but i don't want these problems

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#23 H20cooled

I honestly don't think the problems that people are having is from the bare bottom tank, there are a lot of sucessfull bare bottom tanks out there. This is something else.

 

The only other thing that comes to my mind is trace elements missing, corals not getting enough food, I'm not sure what else it could be. It sounds like youv'e went over everything else.

 

I've started using 3 of the Prodobio products on my tank, its only been a week so its a little hard to tell if anything is changing. But what I've seen on RC it works. I'm currently using Bio Digest, Bioptim, & Reef Booster. Let me know if you want more info.

 

Rich

 

#24 H20cooled

Ohh by the way, my tank also test out a big fat ZERO with Salifert tests for PO4.

 

 

#25 drock59

Ive heard about the prodobio(?) products. Let me know how they look in a couple months. smile.gif

 

There are a lot of BB tanks out there, but I think this happens to a higher pecentage of BB tanks.

 

Just tested voltage.....something a little strange.

 

There is NO lose voltage in the sump and 3 milliamps in the main display. Weird...because there is a pH probe and nothing else electrical in the tank. Is this anything to worry about?

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#26 H20cooled

Do you have a ground probe in there? They help a lot with stray voltage.

 

I'll be posting my results with the Prodobio.

 

#27 drock59

No ground probe. I dont see a need for one. If someone could post about what levels of voltage can harm coral, I would appreciate it.

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#28 izzypop

Okay guys this is a great thread because I have that problem and I know how Drock59 feels. He knows his levels and on paper they are darn near perfect. This is the deal. I have a Aquatronica that monitors everything and I can tell you that pH, temp, salinity blah blah blah is perfect. I have also bought salinity probes and pH probes ect... and have taken my water in to be tested by Upscales. On paper nothing wrong. There is many threads that people are having this same problem and no-one I have seen has solved it in a BB tank except for the people that have "Fish Nippers" or red bugs, acro eating flatworms, ect....

IT ISN'T LIGHT. You can't take a frag from Upscales frag tank and tell me it is light. but I have switched lighting and bulbs just to be sure and nothing. Drock59 don't waste your money on new lighting. IMO.

 

I have been dealing with this since October and I can tell you I never had this problem when I had sand. It is also a different tank so not a good comparison but how many of these threads do we see with BB and how many with sand? I do think there are some things we don't test for that are VERY important to SPS like trace elements, ammino acids. It is a hard problem to discuss in a thread because people that haven't had the problem are always like it's the basics ect...

Anyone that has had this problem and solved it tell us what you did? I am still waiting to find that person.

I have a frag tank in my garage now for testing and I have given frags to others that right away respond well in there tanks but not mine. I have been taken pictures everyday of some test frags and I can show you guys exactly what goes on. I have also added sand to my tank 2 weeks ago and it is too early to tell but I am hopeful that it solves the problem. If all you experts out here in Oregon (I know you are there) want to help lets do it! I challenge you!!!!

I do realize it isn't BB that is the problem but I can't find anyone with this same problem that has sand. In Febuary I quit and almost didn't come back to SPS keeping. I have got a second wind so lets figure this out.

 

Oh I added a ground probe a long time ago and it did nothing.

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#29 drock59

Shawn, that is precisely how I feel. There is something that is not being provided to the corals and its not the standard light, flow, levels, etc. Im very interested to see what your experiment comes up with.

 

Do you run UV by chance? Ive been reading about some BB folks that have had good success with the bigger units.

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#30 izzypop

I have thought about running UV or Ozone but haven't yet. I don't want to change to many things right now since I added sand.

 

Explain exactly what you see when a new frag is put in your tank? I am interested in PE? do you have it? I saw a thread from a guy on RC called "onthefly" that seemed to have this problem too. Not sure who it is but I hope they chime in and let us know how they are doing and if they solved it.

 

Now everyone is saying to feed WAY MORE in BB and they see improvement. I am starting to do this. It has caused my skimmer to skim like crazy but it has made things look way more healthy. There is something to feeding more that is for sure.

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#31 drock59

I have meager polyp extension at best. ITs certainly not good polyp extension by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I have been feeding more for a couple weeks. Seem like things are doing "better" but I cant measure that.

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#32 rude944

Hmm, tough one. So if the corals are lightening up, we know that they are losing their zooxanthelle. We know they do this when the temp is too high or there is a stressor in the water. Also know that this happens when nutrients are too low to sustain Zooxanthelle.

Stressors: Can be chemical. Running enough/any Carbon to remove some chemicals that you unknowingly introduced? Perhaps there is a coral/animal that is contributing to high toxins? Some soft corals can do this. Perhaps it's time to do an inventory of your critters for potential sources of toxins.

Food: What do you feed? Are the critters getting enough in the right size? Feeding cyclopseeze or phyto for the filter feeders and smaller polyped corals?

PH seems low, this can be a factor of the the calcium reactor's co2 feed being too high. If there is too much co2 in the water, it will displace oxygen. I like my ozone, it's a safety net for low o2 levels. The barebottom tanks usually don't have enough nutrients for keeping macroalgae, who in turn create oxygen. Can you measure dissolved oxygen? Are there starfish or other inverts who hang near the surface of the water for extended periods where the o2 levels are higher?

 

Whatever the case is, if you make changes, do them once at a time. Make changes slowly so you can isolate the problem factor.

 

Perhaps you want to send in a water sample to a company that does analysis in a lab. I have heard of people doing this and it appears to be a glimmer of hope. They'll beat down the "test kit sucks" theory.

 

Good Luck.

 

 

#33 theron

Can you explain more of the problem you guys are having? At the start of the thread we talked about bleached and dying corals. Is that the problem we are having? Or are the corals somewhat healthy but just don't look good?

 

The corals look healthy in my tank. I have PE all over the place. I just have some corals that are not coloring up like I think they should. I put in some better lighting and I am seeing a positive effect. I still have some that do not look right but they are Tyree corals and I don't think I am alone there.

 

One thing that comes to mind. I know someone that has a small (10g) BB tank that has had a hard time keeping sps corals. I gave him a frag of some xenia and it just wilted away in his tank. Last time I visited him he had his skimmer turned off and it looked like there was an improvement. Maybe it does have to do with nutrients in the water.

 

Shawn, did you say a while ago that you were not able to keep xenia alive in your tank for the same reason? My xenia grows quite well. Maybe your skimmers are too efficient? Maybe they are taking out some trace elements that are needed?

 

What kind of skimmers do you guys run? What about salt? And how often do you do water changes?

 

Theron

 

 

#34 izzypop

Great info. I have never tested 02 levels. I will do this. My starfish and inverts seem happy I have seen my starfish go to the top of the tank one or two times in a period of a couple months but never stay there more than a few hours. No other inverts go to the top.

 

I am very interested in having someone test my water. Do you have information on a good place?

 

I have suspected my Sarcophyton sp. now for month so that is now coming out ASAP. I have posted on RC what the symptons are that a softie is causing problems and no one responded.

 

 

Feed Flake, Frozen Brine, Frozen Mysis, Osyter eggs and Cyclopeeze

 

Drock59:

Do you have good PE for about a week and then rapid decline to basically no PE day or night?

Do you have any corals that darken and get little or no PE?

 

I can see the problem best with Milli's in my tank. They respond badly very quickly at about 5 days and then on the 7th day hope is lost for PE. Now on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd days the coral has GREAT PE. Since I have been feeding a lot I don't get lighting of the coral but here is a pic so far. This is the best so far I have had. I did add sand and feeding a lot more. This coral sits right next to my mushroom leather as a test. I do have a two other test frags that are doing better than this but not good.

milli-time-line.jpg

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#35 izzypop

they eventually end up like this.

light-acro.jpg

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#36 izzypop

Here is a pic of a milli I took from someone that had MAD PE when I put it in my tank but was brown when I got it. It has colored up in my tank to a green put PE was lost in 7 days to this. The milli has color now but this pic shows what all corals end up looking like PE wise and then basically die. Most lighten and then die or stay like this and do nothing. No growth No PE.

Not sure if Drock59 is having this problem but I thought I share some pics to help people undersand to make sure we are talking about the same problem. I tend to take the pics when the coral first shows signs of not being happy. Eventually they lighten and die or hang on and look very sad.

milli-colonyweb.jpg

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#37 izzypop

my skimmer is a beast. It skims this every 3 days when feeding like I am now. Or this in 7 days when feeding light. I have taken the skimmer offline before and didn't see an improvement. Put it back on and it skimmed this in 1 day.

skimmer.jpg

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#38 tdwyatt

In response to all the folks that said it is NOT LIGHTING, I will disagree.

 

 

Although there is no increase in intensity of the bulbs, nor is there an increase in duration of the photoeriod, the change in conditions precipitated by removing the DSB have a dramatic effect on the ability of light to penetrate into the corals overall. Initially, removal of the sandbed will improve transmission of light through the water column through large decreases in turbidity of the water itself, partly through reduction of DOC's and suspended aragonite fines, and partly through the reduction of phytoplankton cell counts in the water as well. These improvements in clarity can result in dramatic increases in radiation transmission, as much as 30% in my personal observations using Richard Harker's evaluation tool through the length of the tank. This alone is enough to precipitate a bleaching event in a tank in the 80 degree F and up range, but there are other issues that contribute as well.

 

The removal of a DSB from an existing system will have quite a large impact on the DOC's, dissolved nitrates, and availble organophosphates in a system's water column. These substances often contribute to increasing the zooxanthellae numbers and their density in corls. We often see this as browning of the corals in question, but my exist even in brightly colored specimens in which strong lighting has been historically employed (and the photoprotective pigments form in a reflective layer above the otherwise brown specimen). Removing the sources of these fertilizers for the symbiotic algae often have a direct result in dropping these populations and algal densities in the host coral. The immediate result is a lightening of the secimen as these algae levels drop, but due to the rapidity with which this may occur, there is a loss in protection of the coral tissue from visible light and UV radiation. If lighting is not reduced to allow for the photoprotective pigments time to form over the zooxanthellae layers, then superoxidase production resulting from phototoxicity will begin and bleaching will soon ensue.

 

In addition to losses in zooxanthelle pops and density, losses in phosphates may be severe in some situations, especially in systems that employ GFH reactors (Phosban, Rowaphos, etc as Granular Ferric Hydroxide). Corals and their symbionts conform to Renfield ratios, such that should phosphates drop too low (C:N:P ratios), corals cannot keep their zooxanthelle and will bleach (or the dinoflagellates will simply fail to reproduce, with the same net effect). See some of the articles by Fossa in the European lit for some documentation on this. This hypophosphate response will be especially prevalent in systems without fishes or those in which there is no target feeding for corals to import phosphates. Some aquarists will report bleaching at the tips of established corals in systems that have newly recharged GFH reactors or large increases in the dose of GFH in the reactor, even in systems with DSB substrates, so placing these reactors in systems with newly removed DSB's (to BB conversions) may not be in your best interests (nor the corals' rolleyes.gif )

 

 

To prevent these issues from occurring in your systems, simply do as earlier suggested and drop your photoperiod to an hour of MH a day, gradually working your way up to a level of 4 to 6 hours, supplementing the rest of the day with VHO, etc fluorescents to suit your cnditions in the system. There have been reports of split MH photoperids actually encourging stony coral growth, this might me something to consider for your system while increasing your photoperiod.

 

 

Sorry to ramble on like this, HTH

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#39 onthefly

BB thing......

After 6 months of this crap...my observation: "tanks CAN be too sterile" but I haven't found the solution, that's my problem.

 

EDIT: THIS IS NOT BLEACHING!!! It is a slow fading, taking about 4-8 wks....and it is still occuring with a 4 hr photoperiod.....therefore I doubt it is do to phototoxicity.

 

I started my BB tank in August with fully cured LR from James, but I still let the tank mature for months before adding corals.

 

Set up:

20Long

18lbs LR

PFO 250W mini pendent/IC driven: P14 or CVR 10k (have tried both)

Tried photoperiods from 10hrs to 4hrs and pendent hieghts from 22" to 12"

Mag 9 return through SCWD

2x microjets behind the LR keeping the BB clean

ATO through DIY Kalk reactor

Sump has a Urchin skimmer, zeo reactor, etc

Overflow runs through a filter sock changed every week or so

GROUND PROBE

Ca=450 (Seachem)

Alk=7 (Sachem)

Mg=1400 (Seachem)

pH=8 (Seachem)

SG=1.025 (refractometer)

NH3/NO2/NO3/PO4=0 (Seachem)

Temp= 78-82 depending on the time of year (2F daily swings)

Oceanpure salt and 10-15% every couple of months

 

Took down my 5.5ga SPS tank that had almost 25 frags (growing and great color.....oh yeah it had southdown (~1.5"), 65x turn over, no skimmer, kalk top off, 70W MH and 26W Ac03 PC) and used all the corals to "seed" the new tank.

 

Initally, I ran the tank fishless, since that's what I did in the 5.5....therefore no feeding and within days I could see coral begin fading, then they start to decalcify, then begin a very slow base up necrosis usually around 6-8weeks.

 

All corals are bought at Upscale, interceptor treated, then acclimated into my tank.....no parasites or FWs!

 

I have tried: fish (got a dotty and clown goby), running Zeovit (basic 4, CV, and AAHC), dosing potassium, iodine, trace, etc.

 

The only thing that has seemed to stop the fading was Uber-feeding mysis shrimp soaked in selcon(initally), but recently I noticed the the problem was occuring again.

 

So, this week I'll try another couple of fish.....and then it is back to sand!

 

Also I should say:

1) my LR has tons of coralline growing on it, 5-6 different colors

2) no shedding of crap from the LR, I rarely have to siphon

3) No diatom, cyano, or other nuisance algae blooms....other than some hitchhiker macro that came in on the LR.

 

I completely get that every tank is different, but something I noticed about those killer BB tanks, they run alot of fish...big fish...and some people are talking about feeind 3-4 cubes of frozen/2x a day!

 

Funny, I found it easier to grow SPS in 5.5 gallon tank, I just ran out of room...go figure!

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#40 izzypop

Thanks for joining in onthefly

Wow I am not happy this is happening to others but nice to hear I am not all alone. I too started my 150g tank August 1st. I had two initial months of great growth and color and October came and hasn't been good since.

I was using OceanPure and have slowly switched to Kent only because Upscales runs Kent. One less thing different. My water in my BB was very sterile. I too have tons of coralline everywhere. I tried small water changes weekly and medium water changes every two to three weeks. Didn't notice any change.

 

onthefly do you have any before during and after pictures of what is happening? What is your PE like or how does that situation play out from when you introduce the frag.

ZEO huh! I might have to check that out on your tank.

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onthefly

Couple of progression shots

Sorry for the blurry #3, but you get the point......growth is not really the problem. Pic 1 to 4 is about 5 months.

 

Oh yeah, I just noticed the slow necorsis on the base a few days ago, yet 2 tips have great PE at night and are slightly blue.

Attached Thumbnails [/url]http://thereeftank.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35331&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1143151726 http://thereeftank.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35332&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1143151734 http://thereeftank.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35333&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1143151741

 

http://thereeftank.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35334&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1143151749

 

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42 onthefly

Here's my typical frag progression for me:

 

I get it from Travis, I'm home in 5 minutes, it goes into a temp controlled/high flow interceptor bath, then it goes to the bottom of the tank, off to the side. Within minutes I see PE!

 

A day or 2 later I move it up the rock work and mount it. For the first 1-2 weeks I see incredible growth at the at the tips and base (get a nice foothold and they almost completely encrust the epoxy during this time). PE is insane. Usually much better at night which is when I feed my CV and AAHC.

 

Usually, around week 2'ish I start to see a decrease in color and a decrease in growth, PE is usually ok. By 3 or 4 weeks, PE starts to decrease and the others continue downhill. Eventually, the body of the coral starts to decrease in mast and the typical "ridges" (like those seen on millis) that surround a polyp, begin to shrink. This is what I refer to a decalcification.

 

Bomber said I was NO3 limited and therefore the zoox are dying off. He suggested fish to add NO3 back into the system. The only problem, either I waited too long and the fading is not reversible, or there is some other factor compounding things.

 

Another observation: When Travis first set up the new frag system, the colors of the first corals in there were INSANE! Which I bought 3 of.......I hadn't been back in a couple months, but when I went in a few weeks ago, I noticed that the colors were less intense and more of a pastel look. I also noticed that he added a couple fish to the tank.

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#43 tdwyatt

 

I think thee is a big difference btween starting tank as BB with the initial acclimitization of corals to the light, and switching one that has corals that are established already, the second lends itself to bleaching, the first tends to lean towards hypophosphate issues. Do a google on Fossa and the renfield ratio issues with corals in BB systems, I will try to find more when I get home (can't do a decent search while at work). I run my display for SPS with a DSB, and am planning on changing it out in another few years if I start seeing issues with cyanobacterial blooms, but until then, it has been the easiest system for me to keep and maintain corals in for reeftop systems. I have converted several systems now to BB, and I am beginning to think that it was a mistake to do so, not because BB doesn't work, but because I am basically tied up with work so much as of late that I don't take the time to siphon out all the accumulations of fallout that develope in the tank. A DSB sinks this stuff for me and allows for lapses in husbandry (that seem to crop up all the time in my schedule as of late... rolleyes.gif )

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#45 tdwyatt

Quote:

Originally Posted by onthefly

Bomber said I was NO3 limited ...

 

 

...Another observation: When Travis first set up the new frag system, the colors of the first corals in there were INSANE! Which I bought 3 of.......I hadn't been back in a couple months, but when I went in a few weeks ago, I noticed that the colors were less intense and more of a pastel look. I also noticed that he added a couple fish to the tank.

 

A fine line between too clean a water column and excesses in nitrate and phosphate. It is a shame that we can't find a kit that will test for organophaosphates in the water column and evaluate the size of the phosphate deposit in rock and sand... Pastels seem to be where most stonies go in captivity, with a few notable exceptions...

 

http://thereeftank.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35196&d=1142881096

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#49 drock59

Quote:

Some soft corals can do this. Perhaps it's time to do an inventory of your critters for potential sources of toxins.

 

Naso Tang

Coral Beauty

2 Dispar Anthias

4 chromis

Tomato Clown

Cleaner Shrimp

Coral Banded Shrimp

 

Lots of Digitas

Several caps

Pocillapora

Unknown acro x 2

Four zoo colonies

Zenia

Tri Color Acro

Green Bubble Tip anemonea

Purple Gorgonian

 

Quote:

Feeding cyclopseeze or phyto for the filter feeders and smaller polyped corals?

I feed cyclops, rotifers and occasionally phyto

 

Quote:

Drock59:

Do you have good PE for about a week and then rapid decline to basically no PE day or night?

Do you have any corals that darken and get little or no PE?

yep

 

Quote:

Can you explain more of the problem you guys are having?

Corals lightening up...some have died...two for me.

 

 

Additionally, I have NO, NONE, nadda for coralline growth. Im thinking this could be due to lighting issues as my levels seem to be good.

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#54 izzypop

Okay the PE on my Montis is perfect no problems. Color on my Monti Caps is not right but they do grow and have PE so no problems there. My superman is loving life in my tank. My LPS don't seem to have a problem. PE and slow growth. Zoos don't grow but stay open.

One thing is odd is my GSP will only come out for a day with little PE and then retract for a week. I think that may be due to high light but not sure so I don't judge it. Xenia did okay for a while then melted away. That is normal for xenia though. Since then I have let my water dirty up a bit and a xenia polyp survived and is beating so that is good and bad cause I don't want that weed in my tankfrown.gif. My stylo frags seem to be fine with the tank they are not affected and color is fine. The lighter birdsnest like green and orange don't do well but the pinks and reds do fine. Since adding the sand, feeding 2/3 times the norm and dosing additives my tank has come around. Not normal but better. I still have some kind of problem but I am giving the sand time to get some bacteria going and water to dirty up a bit.

 

Now the bad news:

Milli's and Prostrata do horrible in my tank still. You add them and by day 1-3 they look great then start to have PE retract and polyps brown out and then fully retract by day 7 and never come back out. The coral loses its color and eventually dies or hangs on and does nothing but look bad and no growth. Put that coral in another tank and wham it comes back to life if I haven't waited to long. Stags do a little better. They hold out longer and since the addition of sand, more food and additives they are holding on and looking okay. I get PE with them and my test frag has not lost PE at all after 7 days. The thinner branched acros like this seem to be inbetween and the torts hate my tank. They die usually within 2-4 weeks. It is almost like something in the water is irritating them not that there isn't enough food. I think parasite or bacterial or fungus or something but I have checked for AEFW's and Redbugs and I know what they look like and I don't have that going on.

 

At night I get very little PE on the tips of my acros only. No where else on the coral though and even then it is just barely any. Almost like the coral is testing the water out. Does that sound like your tank Drock59?

 

Getting a Milli to grow and have PE in my tank is the ultimate test.

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#55 drock59

Quote:

Okay the PE on my Montis is perfect no problems. Color on my Monti Caps is not right but they do grow and have PE so no problems there. My superman is loving life in my tank. My LPS don't seem to have a problem. PE and slow growth. Zoos don't grow but stay open.

 

 

Exactly how mine are.

 

Quote:

lighter birdsnest like green and orange don't do well but the pinks and reds do fine

 

complete opposite of mine

 

Quote:

At night I get very little PE on the tips of my acros only. No where else on the coral though and even then it is just barely any. Almost like the coral is testing the water out. Does that sound like your tank Drock59?

Yes, except my glorious tricolor this morning. smile.gif I think we are on to something here by feeding heavy and adding some supplementation.

 

Also, I think the BLV bulbs throw about about half the PAR of the Phoenix, which is good for my tank.

 

Shawn, what supplements are you adding specifically?

 

Ive been thinking about adding amino acids but I havnt yet.

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#56 izzypop

I think the BLV's are good bulbs. The pheonix I am not sure of on HQI especially after a few months.

We are on to something that is for sure and it seems the monti's don't care. That is also why I don't think it is light. My caps and monti's would bleach too and they don't. Also I have changed lights you know that and bulbs and no improvement. I say stick with the BLV's for now especially with the HQI ballast. I have noticed my 250w electronic ballast which I don't like burns the bulbs way WEAK and color is way different than an HQI ballast. Then you get an RC member saying BLV sucks or Pheonix is better. They don't realize the ballast makes all the difference. Okay we have ruled out light for now.

 

Nutrients:

Yes my water was sterile and really clean because that is what I thought the point of BB was and needed for Acros. I know now that doesn't work and people are wrong about feeding less to solve a problem. It only makes it worse and stressful on your tank. I realize us internet folks that read read read and come up with the ultimate clean room tanks with the perfect on paper setup have problems with it being to clean. The more I had problems the more I "cleaned my water" making it worse. People would come over and marvle at how clean my tank looked and I just see a coral graveyard. I could get to and suck out everything in my BB and so I did. That was the point. DO NOT STARVE YOUR BB TANK. FEED FEED FEED IT.

If we only had the magic sps food but it hasn't found its way to the market yet. It seems a lot of coral food is coming out now because we know light and fish is not the only thing you need to keep SPS in BB. I am eagerly waiting the results of PRODIBIO from Rich.

 

Additives:

I have no idea if this stuff works or not but this is what I am adding.

Kent Iron

Kent Tech I

Kent Tech M

Kent Coral - Vite (ran out yesterday)

Kent Essential Elements

Kent Strontium and Molybdenum

Salifert Ammino Acids

 

I notice that Iron has a positive effect on my tank and helped the cheato grow and color up as well. I took the cheato out and hope that the Iron can now be available for the corals.

 

I never dosed it much when doing water changes but now that I am going to hold off on water changes for a while they should help and plus it's fun dosing all the colors of the rainbow in your tank. 1 part purple, 1 part blue, 1 part orange, 1 part white, 1 part green and your done.freak6.gif

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#60 theron

This has been a great thread. It has made me think a lot about the direction I should take with my tank. My BB has had some issues and I have made some changes that have had a positive effect. But I still think it could me much better. I don't have the problems that Izzy and Drock are having but my coraline growth is not great, and I an not seeing great growth from my corals.

 

I am starting to think that maybe we are putting too much emphases on crazy flow and super efficient skimmers. Maybe we don't need THAT much flow and maybe our skimmers don't need to be THAT efficient.

 

The problem could be that we are taking out too much of something. Having too little could be as bad as having too much of it. Like phosphate for example. I have read that the corals need some amount of phosphate in order for calcification, but having too much can also inhibit calcification. We need to keep a balance.

 

I have been debating for a while whether to add a refugium with micro to my tank. I think I might add one now and maybe add a DSB to it. Would this allow me to have the best of both worlds? I can have lots of flow in the display and have benefits of DSB.

 

Theron

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drock59

Quote:

The problem could be that we are taking out too much of something

 

As soon as you figure out what that somthing is, feel free to let me know. smile.gif

 

 

 

Remote DSB seems to offset the benifits of the BB. My two cents.

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62 Twitterbait

As i noted last year when i ended my experiment.

 

I had started my 2 tanks as BB then i did not do any WC at all. Only top off for evap. because i didn't do WC i also didn't suck up the detrius that floated down. I left the tank that way for a year or so and found the following...

 

My pulsing xenia was going nuts with exponential growth, but all my LPS except my brain and candy cane died. the other soft corals did just fine.

 

My SPS (same system seperate BB tank) were a different thing. the only suppliment i added was calcium and i noticed the following from ALL of my SPS.

 

Massive overnight growth from all corals, solid coral structure. I had full PE day and night. the color was great but many of the corals color went very deep with the reds and yellows tending toward brown and the blues etc tending toward dark purple/blue.

 

in addition to that i also had massive corraline algae growth both on the walls and under the detrius on the bottom.

 

Though the common thought has been perfectly clean water for SPS i am inclined to say that you should leave a little goo in the system. just to make stuff happy. since moving back to a sand bed (1.5-2" deep) the color has returned to normal for my SPS and everybody seems happy. If i ever go back to BB i plan on having a DSB in a refugium tied to the system.

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#63 izzypop

Oh my goodness I came home today and I have PE. Last night I took out a pretty big toodstool and also all my cheato. Someone in a plant forum said they can release toxins in the water to keep other things from growing. I don't know but SAND, FOOD, ADDITIVES, and removal of those two things looks like it may be working. Forget BB for me I like the sand better. I hope the tank continues. I am off to go put more food in my tank.

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#64 drock59

Shawn, werent you running carbon? That should take care of the toxins, no?

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#65 izzypop

I was running carbon but I just started running it in a reactor on wednesday. I don't think it was toxins but it was something I did yesterday. I am far from out of the woods but it is getting better.

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#66 Chief

I am running a BB 240, 100 gallon rubbermaid sump, and a 55 gallon fuge with a DSB and Cheato. I haven't been having any problems with PE or growth. One thing I may have done differently is that I did not cook my rocks. I have been vacuuming a good amount of detritus once a week. It may be keeping my water just dirty enough. I hope you two find the magic key here. It gets frustrating when you feel like you are doing everything right, but it still doesn't work. Keep fighting the good fight.

 

Jay

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#67 drock59

Shawn what kind of tub do you mix your water in?

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#68 izzypop

I mix my salt in a 55 gal drum got from trailer city for $10. It had soy sauce in it at one time so I bleached it and cleaned it first. I thought it was leaching something and took it down in January and mixed in a rubermaid I had that I knew was good and it made no difference. I put the 55 gal back online a month ago but cleaned it again. I always have 55 gal of fresh saltwater made up via an automated system so it was easy to do water changes at anytime. I have gotten good at the water thing. I have my main tank, frag tank, saltwater container and freshwater container all automated off one RODI.

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#69 drock59

updates anyone? Since the bulb change and additional feeding, things are looking up for my tank. Corals dont look perfect, but look better.

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#70 izzypop

Same here. Things are better now but still not right. Still a little early with some changes I have done. Some of my acros are doing great now. Colored up and growing. I finally can come home and look at the tank and be in a good mood. I have been a cranky reefer for sometime now.

 

Got some of my acros back that were being babysat and we'll see if I can bring them back.

 

I just bought some PRODIBIO today should have it in a week or so to start up. I am hoping it will also help jumpstart things a tad. I'll try and post some more before and after shots. That has helped me look at the Acros with good judgement.

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#71 rude944

Shawn, I think you have the right attitude. Go with a little bit of sand, not only for astheitics, but SOME detritus. I have heard that, seen it work and love the total appearance. Further, tho, I think it is a wise move to replace some of the sandbed for nutrient export on a regular basis.

 

I am still trying to get my tank into the "zone" after the move. I will replace much of my sandbed when I start my next regular water change. Perhaps this is the happy medium.

 

#72 izzypop

Yea and my new Leopards Love it so bonus. Another reason it wasn't hard for me to add sand. I could finally get the fish I always wanted.

DSC02123Medium.jpg

DSC02124Medium.jpg

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#73 theron

I am glad things are getting better for you guys.

 

Hey Shawn, what kind of sand did you put in there and how tall is the sand bed?

 

Theron

 

#74 izzypop

CaribSea Aragonite. I could not get much sand behind the rocks and the sand blows around in the front of the glass so I get a couple inch sand bed in the middle of the tank. It don't look bad just running a half and half sand and BB system since my CL flow is not adjustable with loc-line. Since I already have starboard you dont notice the sand missing in places. It looks better and now have a place for things that need sand and can suck it out pretty easy if I want. I can get the tank a little cloudy now when basting the sand and rock which before it was completely clean. In the pic you can see in front of the fish no sand in back there starts some sand. It does this just in the front and back. The middle is completely covered.

Attached Thumbnails [/url]http://thereeftank.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35541&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1143585551

 

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#78 Krux

if your comparison is based on corals from travis' shops, you might want to ask him what he feels differs between his tank and yours.. i would venture to guess that sand and supplements are not on this list of things that he feels help him get the color and polyp extension that his corals exhibit before we take them home.

 

i would look seriously at lighting intensity vs. depth, effeciency of skimmer, and fish load as long term issues, not wether or not there is sand blowing around the tank.

 

i know it is working for you, but that was a pretty good list of changes to toss in all at once.

 

non-nitrificating sandbed, next to no feeding, obscene flow and skimming, very intense lighting and next to nothing for fish load would characterize upscales tanks. if corals stop looking good after leaving those conditions, finding out where one derrives from that format should give some clues.

 

fwiw lighter corals can signify lower doc's, while deeper colors higher doc's while neither is necessarily better from an aesthetic standpoint, it is an important function of organics to grasp.

 

you can get pe by throwing a tablespoon of sugar into your tank... it excites the polyps, even though the zoox in the flesh may already be getting all the energy they can take (thus not wasting energy extending polyps all day).

 

just some summaries, feel free to find some old threads in the think tank on these, all of the points have been debated.

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#79 izzypop

Palani:

I bought two of them a week and a half ago. Tried real hard to get them locally with no luck for about 9 months. They are a very hard fish to get healthy and to keep long term. He is still getting used to the time change and is eating brine, cyclopeeze and shrimp. I have yet to see the other one yet but he didn't look so good when he arrived. My tank is very peaceful so he seems happy.

 

Krux:

I consider you a very valuble resource and I'm glad you gave me some advice here. Thank You.

I have been asking Travis for a while now what he thinks and I am trying to copy his setup the best I can. I even had him test my water. He said it came out pretty good except my salinity was at 1.027 which he thought wouldn't cause my problems but to lower it a tad. I am now at 1.025 using refractometer and pinpoint salinity probe. He seemed to guess my water was to clean and recommended to start dosing additives and ammino acids. I bought what he uses. I also mentioned to him about the sand and he said it couldn't hurt.

 

Lighting: People keep coming back to this. How do I tell if it is lighting or not exactly so I can just rule this out once and for all. I had this problem with 2 x 250w DE bulbs too. I don't run HQI ballast and the tanks that they came from and I test with all have radiums on HQI ballasts. I don't know how much more exact I could test.

 

I am with you on all this stuff and not debating you at all but I have slowly messed with these things since October and have had no success. I don't know what to do anymore. I am at a loss because it has went beyond what I know at this point. I am looking for help but realize no one that I believe can help really wants to step up. One person has been helping me and by that I mean actually came and looked at the tank over a course of changes. I have read all I can read on RC and if you look in the SPS forum which I am sure you have every page has at least one person now with these problems. From what I can tell they solve it with Sand, More Food or found redbugs/AEFW's. You are right I have found debates but the solutions are the key thing missing. I have been hoping for a miracle cure like stray voltage, faulty equipment, broken bulbs, ect.. but I can find the problem. I have set up a frag tank in the garage that is a not attached to my main system for testing but waiting on ICECRAP to send me my ballast. I love this hobby but I quit in Feb. it has been that bad. Now I'm back and trying my best.

 

Now for the good news:

The Acro Stag I got from Travis still has PE and now seeing some growth. This is such a relief. Another stag I had is now growing and has PE. I have literally been feeding 2 to 3 times the norm. Corals are getting darker and look a lot better. My montis are growing again even my Tyree montis that held on through all this are growing.

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#80 Lowman

I've had mine for over a year now. My favorite fish in my reef. Glad to hear that you are having some progress on your tank issues.

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izzypop

Okay here is pics of my other two sample frags. These have been doing great and I am happy with. The milli on the other hands still doesn't look that great but that is okay since these are lovin life it seems. No more BB for me I am a SSB guy now for sure.

green-acro-timeline.jpg

acro-stag-timeline.jpg

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#

82 drock59

izzy, that pretty much sums it up for me too. I think I am finally seeing improvement. I ordered some more supplements, even though I dont know if that is going to help at all. I started dosing them right before I saw improvement so I am going to stick with it.

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#83 onthefly

Looks Good Shawn! Update in 3 weeks...I'm really interested.

 

I just added some southdown and medium grade over that, so we'll see. Some guy just posted in my RC thread that I'm "missing something in my husbandry" and that I "shouldn't go blaming BB" since other BB tanks look great.

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#84 izzypop

That is BS! Anyone that has had this problem has never said that. I started this thread and still stick to my original thought. Find someone that has had the problem and found a resolution other than sand, more food or parasites and there really isn't any. On RC I love all the new posts of this same thing. We actually have good system because our husbandry and equipment can take the water to sterile and now we can add what ever we want. The people that don't have this problem never get to the sterile point and don't understand that our husbandry I think is almost too good.

 

My tank today looks awesome better than yesterday. It is very nice now. Adding the sand was a good idea IME. Now feed heavily to get that sand going. The sand traps the food and junk but the BB with high flow just put it right in my skimmer. Bast your rocks too they love that.

I will keep reporting and look forward to your updates as well.

I consider you me and drock59 to be advanced and our husbandry is not the problem. Lack of knowledge and food for SPS is the problem I think. Can't wait to try all these new SPS foods coming out.

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#85 Casey

Well my water is great and so are my SPS and im bb and dont feed crap.

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#86 izzypop

Another "pro" blaming our husbandry.

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#87 drock59

Casey, here we go again.

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#88 impur

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey

Well my water is great and so are my SPS and im bb and dont feed crap.

 

 

Wow..................Want a medal?

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#89 drock59

Let us consider this like a LoveRotties comment and disreguard.

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#90 Palani

drock, don't even get started. Now lets go back to our previously tuned station...BB problems.

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rude944 Mantis

rude944

Posted
Posted

 

I replaced about a third of my sandbed last night with my bi weekly 25% water change. I am now considering this a part of my maintenance regimen. I would advise others running a ssb to do the same in an effort to reduce dissolved organics. I think this will contribute to the lightening of my corals and still give them the polyp extension that they should have. IMO, this may be the best way.

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reefgeek84 Acropora

reefgeek84

Posted
Posted

 

I replaced about a third of my sandbed last night with my bi weekly 25% water change. I am now considering this a part of my maintenance regimen. I would advise others running a ssb to do the same in an effort to reduce dissolved organics. I think this will contribute to the lightening of my corals and still give them the polyp extension that they should have. IMO, this may be the best way.

I agree, this is what I think would help...and it has worked for alot of people.

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izzypop Shark

izzypop

Posted
Posted

thanks Keith that is an awesome copy job. I added 1-2" and was thinking about swapping the sand out like you suggest. Let us know if it caused any stress on your system.

I do like the ssb better now too. The DSB was too much in my old tank but the SSB is a nice looking that's for sure.

I can't wait to see if onthefly has seen improvement with adding the sand. Don't know if he knows were here now though. I'll pm him.

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drock59 Shark

drock59

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Posted

So along the lines of swapping sand out what is the poing besides nutrient export? I thought we all wanted nutrient import, hence the sand. :)

 

Wont you just kill off a lot of pods and critters by switching the sand?

 

How often are you planning on swapping?

 

I just plan on stirring my sand a couple times a week.

 

PS. wasnt me

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This is my opinion only:

 

If you syphon the sand regularly as Seth R does then you will export the nutrients at a far greater pace than natural breakdown and consumation.

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i guess i missed the point of the whole thread DOH!

there's always going to be nutrients in a closed system. The most efficent skimmers can only pull out max 95% of the junk. the remainding 5% is creating foam in the riser.

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rude944 Mantis

rude944

Posted
Posted

The idea of removing a bunch of pods and critters is relevant. This is why I will only replace a third of it at a time. It leaves plenty of microfauna in the tank to reestablish their populations. I also want the critters gone as nutrient export, along with whatever detritus has built up in the bed. Another added benefit is that sand has the ability to bind some chemicals and dissolve others. Think of it as a poor mans calcium reactor. You dissolve some calcium and trace elements over time and your sand bed becomes polluted with detritus and other crap.

 

I think I will do this every quarter, as it is time/labor consuming and somewhat expensive.

 

Well, the DSB for me absorbed too many nutrients. It was a sink for them. I never had any nitrates, and that is a good thing, but I did have p04 and lots of dissolved organics. I think that running a ssb is a bright idea in that you do have some nutrients and plenty of microfauna to break it all down. The diversity of the microfauna ensures that there is some planktonic life in the tank, and it's not completely "sterile" as we say.

 

That's my 2 cents. That and a subway token, and you can ride the subway. ;)

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