Heater redundancy but more complexity

[Willapa]

For the last 4 years or so, I’ve been controlling my two 300 watt finnex heaters with only my Apex and finally added some redundancy to make sure my tank doesn’t get cooked bu a stuck relay. So I picked up one of these on a BRS Black Friday sale. It’s basically an ink bird controller but both outlets are synced and perfect for two heaters. I originally intended on having the BRS unit control my tank temp by itself with Apex set higher as the backup. But after trying this, I wasn’t very happy with the temp swing despite cranking down the dead band to the lowest it would go. I let it control the temp overnight, then decided the next morning to have Apex as the primary controller and this as the backup. This has been working well for a few weeks, but my only concern is that when the Apex has the heater outlet off, the BRS controller (which is plugged into this outlet) is also off as opposed to the controller being on all the time. Under normal use, the controller would have power constantly. Maybe this isn’t a problem, just don’t know how long it’ll last like this. It seems others are using it this way. In the end, this set up may just be as or even more vulnerable to failure. I’ve got the controller set to kill power to the heaters at 81F.

What are other folks using or other configurations?

 

 

 

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[SuncrestReef]

I just bought the exact same BRS controller and it will arrive next week.  I've been in the same boat as you with dual heaters controlled by my Apex.  I'll fiddle with it when it arrives and let you know where I end up.

[GreenJeans]

Following...I'll be setting up a pair of heaters for my new tank at the end of January.  @SuncrestReef - in the control freak interview, the dude gave you a hard time about how your heaters are set up, but I didn't follow.  Can you clarify the "ideal" setup he was describing?

 

I like the idea of using the apex as the primary temp control, due to the much lower hysteresis

[obrien.david.j]

I've been a consistent heater redundancy user.   Apex turns them on and off based on Apex temp probe, heaters are set 2-4 degrees higher than desired set point to insure if apex gets stuck I don't get a boiled tank.    It's saved me at least three times in the past 20 years.   (first apex was #201 from 1997)

I used Jager heaters until May of this year, when I switched to Finnex.  Jager were great, but even new ones have been failing more often in recent years - so I've switched.   Yes, I used Finnex through a redundant controller.

My sump is in the garage, so water temp is affected by nightime air temps more than most tanks.  Also, my sump feeds a small garage frag tank AND the main tank (with the temp probe in it).   If I use too strong a heater, the frag tank gets over heated before the main tank gets back to temp.   So I use two stage heating, with setpoint difference.  If the 300W heater (blue lines below) can't get the water temp back up, then 0.3F lower and the 2nd heater kicks in. (black bars below)   I also use a second Temp Probe just sticking into the air of the fish room to get a feel for how cold it got.  It's not a perfect temp reading, just a relative indicator.

Here's the last week of tank temp.  (Orange is T-Tank, Green is T-Air of the garage fish room)

 

[Sailingeric]

I use an Inkbird controller.  I think it is the same thing.  Mine is set 78 degrees with alarms going off it gets below 75 and above 80.  I also use two heaters in my sump so if one should fail it still has heat.  And I plan on replacing them next month with some fresh ones.  I try to do it about once a year to be safe.  And then my old ones will be emergency back up. 

[albertareef]

Hey Trevor, I am doing something very similar to what you are doing now with the tank controller (not an Apex) taking lead and the dedicated heater controller (not an ink bird) as a secondary.  Good question as to impact on the long term viability but am more worried about the redundancy and failsafe than anything else.  I used to do the same thing with my old style thermostat built in heaters so the secondary controller is a bit of a new arrangement (about 6 months).  Fingers crossed...

[Willapa]

I've been a consistent heater redundancy user.   Apex turns them on and off based on Apex temp probe, heaters are set 2-4 degrees higher than desired set point to insure if apex gets stuck I don't get a boiled tank.    It's saved me at least three times in the past 20 years.   (first apex was #201 from 1997)
I used Jager heaters until May of this year, when I switched to Finnex.  Jager were great, but even new ones have been failing more often in recent years - so I've switched.   Yes, I used Finnex through a redundant controller.
My sump is in the garage, so water temp is affected by nightime air temps more than most tanks.  Also, my sump feeds a small garage frag tank AND the main tank (with the temp probe in it).   If I use too strong a heater, the frag tank gets over heated before the main tank gets back to temp.   So I use two stage heating, with setpoint difference.  If the 300W heater (blue lines below) can't get the water temp back up, then 0.3F lower and the 2nd heater kicks in. (black bars below)   I also use a second Temp Probe just sticking into the air of the fish room to get a feel for how cold it got.  It's not a perfect temp reading, just a relative indicator.
Here's the last week of tank temp.  (Orange is T-Tank, Green is T-Air of the garage fish room)
 

Two stage heating, that’s a first! If the Apex gets stuck on, do you rely on the internal heater controller as a backup? I’m using just the finnex elements with no built in controller.
Thanks for sharing.


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[Willapa]

Hey Trevor, I am doing something very similar to what you are doing now with the tank controller (not an Apex) taking lead and the dedicated heater controller (not an ink bird) as a secondary.  Good question as to impact on the long term viability but am more worried about the redundancy and failsafe than anything else.  I used to do the same thing with my old style thermostat built in heaters so the secondary controller is a bit of a new arrangement (about 6 months).  Fingers crossed...

Yea, that’s the trade off here.....having some redundancy or adding another layer of complexity that could also fail. But I guess there is a bit of luck wrapped up in the hobby!


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[Willapa]

I just bought the exact same BRS controller and it will arrive next week.  I've been in the same boat as you with dual heaters controlled by my Apex.  I'll fiddle with it when it arrives and let you know where I end up.

Well if John bought it, I must be on the right track! LMK how you end up configuring it. Maybe the BRS controller will have tighter control for you. I want to give it another try, but gave up after the first evening of the temperature roller coaster. The BRS controller would change like .1F when heaters were on but Apex temp probe would go up a half degree. So I’d have over 1.5F swings when the Apex has about .5F swing.


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[obrien.david.j]

20 minutes ago, Willapa said:

Two stage heating, that’s a first! If the Apex gets stuck on, do you rely on the internal heater controller as a backup? I’m using just the finnex elements with no built in controller.
Thanks for sharing.

That's the idea.  For the Jager's I was relying on the internal thermal control as backup.  For my latest Finnex elements I bought an external controller (something like rainbird) as backup.

BTW - I figured out I should be doing two Not-Huge heaters, instead of one largest wattage heater by using my 2nd temp probe in the frag tank.  The temp swings were much larger there when I had a single largest wattage heater.    Amazing what you can learn by monitoring.

 

7 minutes ago, Willapa said:

... after the first evening of the temperature roller coaster. The BRS controller would change like .1F when heaters were on but Apex temp probe would go up a half degree. So I’d have over 1.5F swings when the Apex has about .5F swing. ...
 

Notice my programming, I'm controlling with Apex to 0.2F swing.   Yes, during cooler nights I'm controlling to 0.5F swing.    

 

BTW - I'm doing a 0.7F swing on my chiller settings in the summer.  Cycled more often than I liked when I tried 0.2F for the chiller.

[SuncrestReef]

My BRS controller finally arrived.  I’m testing it out on my mixing station before moving it to my sump.  I just want to experiment a little with how it behaves and interacts with my Apex programming without any risk of harming my tank.

[Oregonic]

I use finnex heaters with digital controller built into them, but my apex is what actually controls the temp. If the apex were to ever fail on, the built in thermometer in the heater should control the temp. My tank stays steady 77.6 - 77.8, usually just bounces between 77.7 and 77.8. I will have to say the finnex built in controller temp is way off, I have them set to 83 to keep temp at 78 if I were to not rely on the apex. 

[SuncrestReef]

@Willapa I'm seeing the same result you described.  If the BRS controller is in charge of maintaining the temp, even at the lowest range possible, the temperature swing is way bigger than I had with the Apex controlling the heaters directly.  Here's the temp graph from my mixing station after putting the BRS controller in place yesterday:

I think I'll reconfigure it to be a safeguard but rely on the Apex for primary control.