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Getting excited about starting my first tank, lots of questions


GreenJeans

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I grew up around the oceans, and some of my fondest memories are of the beautiful fish and sea life while snorkeling and in public aquariums. I saw a wonderful tank a couple weeks ago, and have been fixated on the idea of creating my own ever since.

I would plan for the tank to be in my front room, out of direct sunlight. It would share a wall with the closet of a room that I could dedicate to the purpose of keeping a sump, top off water, RO/DI system, gear, spare parts...

I've only just began researching what it would mean to keep a living coral reef in my living room, and I have so many questions.

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Should I go big or go home? That is, I know that the larger a tank is, the easier it is to keep. Would you start with a 125gal if you could?


Realistically, how much time per week will I need to commit to care, maintenance, feeding, etc?

 

Related, is it possible to automate most things? I'm tech savvy, and love the idea of peeking at my phone to see chemistry, getting alerts for problems, and saving as much of my time in maintenance as possible.


Backup and redundancy planning - Do I need a battery backup system? A generator for longer power outages? How do I ensure redundancy with my measurements and deal with equipment failures?

 

How do I go about selecting stock? Do I find something I like the look of, and then research the compatibility/feeding? As my first tank, I imagine I want heartier stock, but I also want nice colors...schools, symbiotic pairs (sand shrimp+goby, etc)...how do I find this category?  Are there highly recommended stock? And the world of corals is still overwhelming, there's so many categories and varieties, how do I even start? How and when to add fish and corals is still confusing. I guess I can wait on this, I still need to cycle a tank first...

 

How do you Identify pests? Waiting until there's visible coral or fish problems feels too long, how do you learn what to look out for to prevent problems? Just experience?

 

Lots of questions, I know. Thanks in advance!
 

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Welcome!  Glad you found your way to the forum. Lots of experienced reef keepers on here who I am sure will be happy to chime in with suggestions. Personally, I have had a couple of 125 gallon tanks and do think that is a good size to work with. Large enough to be relatively stable but not so big it’s hard to maintain. Also can accommodate a wide range of fish except for mature specimens of tangs, triggers etc. so fairly flexible for stocking. Just remember that other elements (lights, skimmer, pumps, reactors) will need to be scaled appropriately so know what you are getting into before committing to a large tank. I do think, however, that there are some economies of scale involved. 
As for automation, you should check out Suncrestreef’s build and Apex controller threads - lots of great info on how to set up automated testing, dosing, water changes etc. - he is the Apex whisperer on the forum. 
If you search with keywords you are likely to find lots of threads speaking to the husbands questions - especially around coral and fish diseases, pests and hitchhikers. These always make for a worthwhile read. 

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I grew up around the oceans, and some of my fondest memories are of the beautiful fish and sea life while snorkeling and in public aquariums. I saw a wonderful tank a couple weeks ago, and have been fixated on the idea of creating my own ever since.
I would plan for the tank to be in my front room, out of direct sunlight. It would share a wall with the closet of a room that I could dedicate to the purpose of keeping a sump, top off water, RO/DI system, gear, spare parts...
I've only just began researching what it would mean to keep a living coral reef in my living room, and I have so many questions.
-----------------
Should I go big or go home? That is, I know that the larger a tank is, the easier it is to keep. Would you start with a 125gal if you could?

Realistically, how much time per week will I need to commit to care, maintenance, feeding, etc?
 
Related, is it possible to automate most things? I'm tech savvy, and love the idea of peeking at my phone to see chemistry, getting alerts for problems, and saving as much of my time in maintenance as possible.

Backup and redundancy planning - Do I need a battery backup system? A generator for longer power outages? How do I ensure redundancy with my measurements and deal with equipment failures?
 
How do I go about selecting stock? Do I find something I like the look of, and then research the compatibility/feeding? As my first tank, I imagine I want heartier stock, but I also want nice colors...schools, symbiotic pairs (sand shrimp+goby, etc)...how do I find this category?  Are there highly recommended stock? And the world of corals is still overwhelming, there's so many categories and varieties, how do I even start? How and when to add fish and corals is still confusing. I guess I can wait on this, I still need to cycle a tank first...
 
How do you Identify pests? Waiting until there's visible coral or fish problems feels too long, how do you learn what to look out for to prevent problems? Just experience?
 
Lots of questions, I know. Thanks in advance!
 
Welcome!
I'd say 120 would be great to start, probably 4x2x2 (feet), the 5 foot 125 is good too. I had a 90 (18" wide...front to back) and having the extra width would have been nice, but not essential.

I'm getting the reef-pi running my nano and relatively happy, and massively cheaper than apex. It's not as full featured yet, but always in Dev (v 3 is in beta testing now). There's a huge thread on reef2reef about it, all open source and based on the raspberry pi.

The stocking is largely driven by what you like, as long as everything you get is compatible and fits the tank. In a 4ft tank, you'll probably have one small (bristletooth) tang, in a 6ft tank, you can probably have a few of different shapes. If you want coral, you probably don't get angels; you'll need to check the "reef safe" box when shopping. Most online retailers like liveaquaria make for pretty good searching because you can see the needs of each creature.

You'll mostly need to think budget, but water flow and lifting are pretty universally the biggest needs. You don't need the most expensive light or pump, but you do need powerful stuff, don't just buy what's at Petco. Black box LEDs and jebao can do as well as ecotech gear, but have reasons they are cheaper (less support, a little more qc troubles, less bells and whistles). My next reef will probably have mostly sbreeflights and gyre pumps.

Highly recommend having a refugium brightly lit with it's in grow light and around 10-20% of the system volume. That and a decent-quality protein skimmer should do most of your filtration for you. Maybe consider room to include a couple reactors for things like activated carbon, biopellets, gfo, etc.

Redundancy will probably save your reef someday, I always recommend a spare (on hand) return pump and heater. If your tank has two or less powerheads, keep a spare (even if lower quality).

That takes me to backup power. Most high end pumps now offer battery backup (gyre, vortech, etc). The pump nearest the surface MUST have this, or your fish can all die if the power goes out, even for a few hours (lack of oxygen). If you ever get muli day outages you should get (at least) a portable generator to make sure your heater, pumps, and probably something else running. Lighting is probably okay out for a few days if the generator can't handle them.

The last thing: buy test kits and use them!

API is mostly not what you want, but the basic kit with ammonia, nitrite, pH, can be good for the first few months when you're just watching it "cycle". I'd go with salifert, nyos, elos, Hanna ("checker"), and red Sea brands. You need nitrate, phosphate, alkalinity. If keeping stony corals, you need calcium and magnesium. The other important things are a good Salinity probe or refractometer (glass hydrometer is fine if you understand exactly how to use it, including temperature corrections). Finally is a thermometer OTHER than the heater.

Test all parameters every week, no matter how tedious it feels.

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That is a lot of good info so far and would agree with all of it. If you have the room 125 gallon would be nice. The more water volume you have when something might go wrong. The more time you have to save your livestock. Focus first on good quality equipment. When I started I wish I did not skimp on are lights and water flow. Don't chase certain chase parameters all the time. It is more important to be consistent than right at a certain number within reason of coarse. I mean like chasing calcium, alkalinity, magnesium and PH. Feel free to browse the past threads for info and by all means keep asking questions. I will enter you in to our monthly drawing! 

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Oh, don't neglect a good system for mixing water! My tap water is clean enough ( nothing interesting but chlorine and under 30ppm, I can get away with RO only, but rodi is universally acclaimed as the only good answer. you want a way to keep about 20-30% of your system water as ready-to-go saltwater, you'll use it got title water changes, but it's key for fixing a problem (something died and is toxic, your friend spilled their beer in the tank).
I'd plan to have a full 32g brute can of saltwater at all times and up to that much in RODI. Rodi is the limiter (most can only generate 75-100 gallons per day), so having plenty of hand is good. You'll top off evaporated tankwater with it, and need it to mix the next batch of salt water.
If you've got 125g system water ( 125 display minus rock and sand, plus sump's water as a guess), you could have 30g of saltwater to do a quick 25% water change while you mix the next 30g that was RODI for another 25% change and can reproduce that RODI in half a day... Great place to be

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Great info, thank you! I'm lucky to have a room on the other side of the wall that I can dedicate to a mixing station, rodi setup, sump space, etc.

 

I'm narrowing down my tank choices between a CustomAquariums.com build, a Red Sea "complete" kit, and a Waterbox 130.4.  I'm leaning towards the Waterbox - I worry that a kit might not be ideal, and the custom tank is likely more expensive. The Waterbox has great reviews. Any others I should consider?

One consideration is the sump - I have the space to set the sump in a closet on the other side of a wall, so I could potentially set up something with a 40"x24" footprint.  Should I take advantage of this and buy an aquarium without a sump, get a custom one built? Or would you just use the one that comes with the Waterbox for simplicity?

What are the "best" bits out there? Pumps, lights, skimmers...I see gyre and vortech mentioned a lot.

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I'd absolutely do the custome sump, for sure, no doubt in my mind. Melevsreef is known for them, or Jason Gregory (east of Seattle, you can find him on the Pacific Northwest reef keeping Facebook group). You can also make your own, especially if you find an old tank (just add the baffles/etc).

As for pumps, everyone loves the vortech, maxpect gyre, tunze, and Neptune WAV. I am satisfied with my jebao pp4 (but you'll need a bigger one).
For your return pump, most seem to love the ecotech vectra, reef octopus various, and some like the Neptune Cor. If you're made of money, the abyzz is top-notch.
Lighting is a dangerously debated topic. Almost no one regrets buying ai Hydra, Radion, kessil. Some prefer T5 hybrid setups with mostly LED. I think the less-concentrated LED is best and negates the need for T5. I expect to buy sbreeflight.com and do a little hardware hack to control them with my reef-pi, you can spend about half as much on the actual Chinese black boxes (eBay, Amazon), which are similar to sbreeflights, his website describes the differences.

Skimmers...reef octopus, nyos, skimz are popular.

Refugium light is probably either kessil or Chinese import grow lights

Your first task, though, is to buy rock and start curing it. You'll have to choose rock (or buy used from Craigslist), marcorocks are popular and relatively cheap. Cover it in saltwater (about 1.020) in a brute can with a powerhead and heater (set to mid eighties Fahrenheit), add ammonium chloride or a grocery prawn and bottled bacteria.
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video/view/macna-2019-dr-tim-hovanec/

https://www.melevsreef.com/video/cooking-live-rock

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Used can be a great answer. Being new mattress it a little tough, but one of these guys might be a great start. Ask them to show you the gear running. Not just to see it run, but how to run it. They might be willing to show you how to disassemble each piece for cleaning and maintenance
1. figure out what they're selling, in detail
2. figure out if it fits your space/desire (size, etc)
3. Check on reviews and forum discussion for each piece of gear to learn if it's high quality
4. Check on prices (new and used) for each piece to decide if it's worth buying at the listed price

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6 hours ago, pdxmonkeyboy said:

I have a dream tank for sale...

Probably not a whole lot more expensive than a complete "kit" but definately waaaay nicer.
 

I'm not seeing a private message option, maybe I haven't unlocked it yet. Contact me, let's chat!

 

1 hour ago, Kshack said:

I also have a dream tank and all equipment.  250 gal, 6X3X2.

Pennies on the doller.

Ken

Too long and either too deep or too wide for my space - I think 4x2x2 is about the biggest I can reasonably go without putting an obstruction in a main walkway. Thanks though!

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FWIW, I generally suggest people buy the tallest tank they can manage, I find it's the best way to enjoy the reef while standing and while sitting (and for kids).

Things to be careful in going too tall:

  • it gets expensive because the glass has to be thicker
  • It can get hard to reach into the tank for maintenance. Less of an issue with my height and orangutang arms, but those plastic grabbers work well too.
  • if your lights aren't up to snuff, it can be hard to keep corals down low, but mostly this isn't an issue with modern LEDs and there are lower light corals that would be very happy
  • You may lose height to the ceiling, which can make it hard to get the lighting out of the way when you're working in the tank
  • If the tank is too low and the sump is underneath, it can be very hard to get equipment in/out of the sump, usually an issue with the skimmer
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So then, first steps -

- plumb the room I intend to use with a water source and drain
- install RO DI, mixing station
- install a tank, plumb it through the wall
- set up sump, filters, skimmer
- set up lights
- install live rock/live sand, begin cycling and testing

Then
- set up Apex
- set up auto topoff
- set up the Triton and DoS pump I just copped...

On the right track?

I'm thinking about how to put the mixing tanks and sump in the closet - can the sump be lifted and set above the tanks, or does it need to be low?

No need to consider any media reactors at this point?

Should I start curing some live rock in a trash can right now, or should I wait until I have a tank and do it in there?

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Pretty much. No lights needed until a few weeks in, typically. ATO isn't critical early, but I wouldn't wait to start it.

Sump doesn't have to be on the ground, but it's water level has to below the display's water level. I'd try to keep the sump's rim a few inches lower than the bottom of the overflow C's external bits. If you're using a ghost overflow, this means you can have the sump fairly high. More standard systems mean you want the sump rim lower than the tank rim or the siphon doesn't start. The key: pipes draining from the display to the sump can't ever go uphill or you can get an airlock preventing the siphon from starting, which causes a flood

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Also, type of rock is heavily debated. Live is fine. Only drawback is cost and that you can get unwanted hitchhiking pests or nuisance algae.
Dry rock generally is much cheaper, buy tends to make for a longer ugly phase in the first few months. If you start with dry, make sure you stay a cycle with some ammonium chloride and/or grocery store prawn and dosing bacteria like Dr Tim's one and only, microbacter 7, biospiro, prodibio startup, etc.
Honestly, I'd add the bacteria to any new setup, then dose live rock enhance once or twice a month forever

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Got it, I'll start with dry rock and cycle it as per Dr Tim, once I have a display tank set up.  Thanks for all your help!
You can kick start it early. Get the barrel you will use as a mixing station, fill halfway with 1.020 saltwater (bacteria work faster a little low), add dry rock and fill the rest of the way, then and follow Dr Tim. Keep covered to minimize evaporation.
After a week or three, replace the water with 1.026 so they'll be ready for the tank.

This is basically my plan for my next tank, except I'll use every variety of bottled bacteria I can find (diversity) and it'll probably be there for a few months

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22 hours ago, GreenJeans said:

Great info, thank you! I'm lucky to have a room on the other side of the wall that I can dedicate to a mixing station, rodi setup, sump space, etc.

 

I'm narrowing down my tank choices between a CustomAquariums.com build, a Red Sea "complete" kit, and a Waterbox 130.4.  I'm leaning towards the Waterbox - I worry that a kit might not be ideal, and the custom tank is likely more expensive. The Waterbox has great reviews. Any others I should consider?

One consideration is the sump - I have the space to set the sump in a closet on the other side of a wall, so I could potentially set up something with a 40"x24" footprint.  Should I take advantage of this and buy an aquarium without a sump, get a custom one built? Or would you just use the one that comes with the Waterbox for simplicity?

What are the "best" bits out there? Pumps, lights, skimmers...I see gyre and vortech mentioned a lot.

If you want to look at Red Sea and Custom Aquarium, Seahorse and Cuttlefish have set up. My 400 gallon tank I had shipped from Custom Aquarium. I have had it running since 2015. I love it.

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CRA is shutting down their tank building, not sure if that is true of the sumps or not (I was planning on getting a glass display from them). I'm probably going to buy a used glass tank for a sump and order baffles from a random local glass shop; silicone them in myself. Actually, I'm kinda doing two of them so I can have an elevated fuge, but you don't need to be crazy like me :)

I think the only big reason to separate the fuge is if that allows it to be bigger. It could be your sump is size-restricted and the fuge can only be 5g (remember the water level is lower in a sump, so a 50g sump probably only has 20-30g of water in it). But maybe you can add another vessel nearby and light it as the fuge. 

Pros:

  • Easier to keep the refugium light off the sump, minimizes algae issues in the sump/equipment
  • Easier to make a big one (maybe you modify a 55g barrel with one or two clear walls and shine lights in the side...boom 55g fuge)
  • Easy to dial in the flow in the fuge so you can get the sump/tank turnover you want without blasting tons of current through the fuge (which might diminish the copepod population, which is a bonus of the fuge)
  • Sort of nice to make purpose-built things. If the fuge builds up detritus, you can shut off its flow and do a deep cleaning without impacting the rest of the system

Cons:

  • Extra plumbing, potentially an extra pump (you might need a pump to move water from the sump to the fuge, or maybe part of a manifold, or maybe it's just one of the display's drains to the fuge, which then drains to the sump, but be careful that drains always go down)
  • Extra cost - but this is just because it's bigger (and a little extra plumbing). You'll probably want more lighting, possibly a cheap powerhead to keep the water circulating in the giant fuge
  • another thing to maintain (kinda the counterpoint to the 'deep cleaning' point above)

The general advice seems to be 10% of system water as the fuge. Many run fine with smaller, there seems to be little disadvantage to bigger. with a 125 display and 30g of water in the sump, you're probably around 125g of system water, so you'd want almost half of the sump to be the refugium. 

My plan (that you don't need to follow) is to have an extra tank above the sump (mine will probably be at least 50% of the display's size). I'll have a manifold pump for various sump equipment, and one of these will also pump water (up) into the fuge. I'll wrap the fuge in black vinyl so the light doesn't leak into the sump. My plan is to have that fuge high enough it actually drains straight into the display tank, but it would work fine to have it drain into the sump. So if you mimic'd my plan, you would have about 75g of fuge, 30g of sump, 100g of display water volume, so the fuge would be about 35% of the system volume. But that means for more saltwater (though hopefully it decreases the need for water changes if you're dosing Alk/Ca/etc), it means more money for lights on the fuge, more plumbing, more...lots of things.

For your setup, probably finding a 50+ gallon sump where at least 12g of the actual water volume is refugium is probably a great answer, up to 20g of fuge water is great and probably still reasonable. The main thing is probably to block light from the rest of the sump, you can use smoked glass baffles or colored acrylic for this, no problem. depending on the light you use on the refugium, you might want to attach some kind of plastic hood around the light to make sure the light stays off the rest of the sump. hair algae in your skimmer is a hassle :)

As for custom vs ready-built, I think it's mostly preference, but I wouldn't expect the cost to be super different, so if you would prefer it a few inches taller or longer, or a slightly larger filter sock area for that clarisea roller you want (for example), you might as well go custom (or build your own)

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You are just a wealth of info, I love it! :D

I like the idea of flexibility, scaleability, and keeping light off the sump.  So then, something like this https://crystalreefaquatics.com/collections/stealth-series-reef-sumps/products/stealth-srs-44-reef-sump-1 or else a custom guy might be ideal?  I don't really know what design opinions to give for a custom design...

I'll have the space to set an aquarium nearby to use as a refugium, away from the closet that'll house the sump, seems like this would be ideal.  I will probably need a pump from the sump to the fuge...and an overflow on a fuge tank to drain back into the sump (skimmer chamber)?

Melevsreef would be the guy to contact about custom options?

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A good custom builder will talk through your goals with you (keeping light off sump, size of fuge, expected skimmer so there's space, etc). they'll be way better at asking the right questions than me.

If separating the fuge, then you have a couple options, all require an overflow in that fuge. I'd plan for either a herbie or bean animal overflow (two or three pipes) behind a weir; that weir's critical to keep the macroalgae from blocking the overflow pipe. It can drain into the same place your display drains to, but if there's a chamber that doesn't go into the skimmer, that's probably ideal. you want the critters (copepods) from the refugium to not be skimmed out and to be blown up into the display. But you probably don't want it going directly into the return section since the water level in that section is critical to keeping salinity stable. Again, a custom builder can design a good place that keeps the fuge's drain away from other filtration, but doesn't mess with the return level.

if the fuge is high enough, it can drain into the display directly, which is slightly preferable in most cases. if you use an overflow that leaves up high on the side of the fuge (as opposed to through the bottom), the fuge only has to be a few inches higher than the display. Say for example you have the display's overflow in the middle of the 4' length and a 3/4" or 1" return from the sump entering on the left of the display. You could position the fuge so the drains just pop out of the back of the fuge and over the rim of the display to drain into the display. Now, if you do this with all the fuge's drains, you'll get some bubbles in the display that aren't pretty. But if you only do that for the siphon from the fuge and send the other drains to any-old-place in the sump, you get the best of both worlds. most of the fuge water is going straight into the display, the surface skimming drains out of the fuge (that may have some muck and definitely bubbles) are going into your filtration to get cleaned up. You could run one return pump to the display and one to the fuge, this gives you redundancy in case a return pump fails, your display is still connected to life support (heater, skimmer, etc, in the sump, and 50/50 it's still connected to the fuge). If budget is an issue, you can split one return pump's output to the fuge/display, making sure you have a valve on each branch (especially the lower one) so you can tune the flow. Even more of a budget would be to only have the return into the fuge, which drains in the display, then into the sump. but you'll still only want the fuge siphon into the display, which limits the actual display water turnover, which shouldn't drop below 3x system volume, and the fuge turnover might end up pretty high to achieve that...this isn't the best plan.

As for who? melev would surely do a good job, but shipping from TX can be pretty brutal. Clear Fabrications seems to be the local go-to guy in the Seattle area, I'm sure there's good PDX people too, someone else on the forum can chime in.

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Putting together a shopping list, would appreciate any thoughts or feedback, especially re: saving money...

Part Model Price TOTAL = $10,474.00 Planned/required
Stand
$3,000.00
    Optional/Get soon
Tank     Purchased
Overflow Stealthbox      
Returns Siphon Stopper      
Powerheads Vortech MP40 x2 $720.00      
powerhead battery backup Vortech $173.00      
Return pump Ecotech Vectra/ReefOctopus Varios-6 $300.00      
Sump Crystal Reef SRS44 $800.00      
Protein Skimmer Vertex Omega 200l protein skimmer $650.00      
Carbon Reactor          
GFO Reactor          
BioPellet Reactor          
Calcium Reactor          
Heaters Eheim Jager 300w x3? $100.00      
Auto top-off system Tunze Osmolator $160.00      
Aquarium Controller Neptune AquaController Apex
$1,800.00
     
Automated Testing Trident      
Automated Testing reagents Trident reagent refill, 3mos      
Automated dosing DoS pump      
Battery backup          
Generator          
Dry Live Rock ReefSaver x 110lb + ReefSaver foundation x 4pcs $440.00      
Live Sand something from BRS $250.00      
Salt Tropic Marin Pro $100.00      
Testing API test kit $23.00      
Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium testing Hannah checkers $150.00      
Quarantine tank          
Lighting Gen4 ecotech radion pro x 2 $1,680.00      
Refugium          
Refugium light          
RO-DI kit          
RO-DI bucket          
Saltwater bucket          
Mixing/water change pump          
Wash sink          
Refractometer + calibration fluid   $28.00      
Magnet Algae scraper   $35.00      
Siphon   $40.00      
Fish net   $10.00      
Algae scraper wand   $15.00      
Chiller          
Misc plumbing          
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Formatting is tough to read, the newlines got lost. But mostly it looks like you're ok.
I'd be making sure the rodi and sw buckets are more like brute cans or 55g drums than a mere bucket, that may be your plan... Just making sure.
It looks like you're going the route with a separate fuge, make sure you've got the plumbing all planned for that.
I'd say the API kit is fine for ammonia and nitrite (cycle), but I strongly suggest a different kit for phosphate and nitrate. Most people like the Hanna PO4 checker, but salifert and red Sea pro are decent choices. Nitrate is hard, usually elos, nyos, and red Sea pro get the most support. Then salifert.
I'd also encourage you to consider q gyre powerhead, maybe swap one vortech for a xf330 or even an xf350. Different flow patterns is worth a lot.
Personally, I wouldn't spend the$$$ for Radion lights, but you're not likely to dislike them, only their sticker price. Main wired if caution with them is: don't tinker with them. Set them and stop messing with it except to change the total brightness/time when coral needs dictate. Messaging with the spectrum forces the coral to adjust pigmentation.

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