Dinoflagellates, is there any winning?

[Spschampion]

Hi, I guess I just mostly want to vent to some of those who may understand. About three months ago I had a major Dino bloom after running Vibrant to eradicate some minor turf algae. Vibrant definitely did kill the turf algae but then the Dino’s started taking over. I did a three day blackout and increased nutrient levels. This was very effective but only helped short term. About a month later the Dino were back. Round two, I tried using Dino x accord to manufacturers recommendations. Didn’t do [language filter]! I also dialed back the light cycle to 4-6 hours a day. Round three, I’ve been running a 35 watt jebao UV light with really slow flow and dosing Live Phyto plankton. This seems to have helped a lot! Killed it way back! But not completely eradicated it. I’ve kept my nutrient level higher then I would normally and haven’t done any water changes in months. I lost a lot of my SPS frags going rounds with this [language filter]. I still feel like this is the monster under the bed just waiting for the right conditions to come out. I don’t really want to start over and it seems kind of pointless since dinos are a natural occurring thing that’s in most aquariums. Just need to out compete it?

[Burningbaal]

BRS investigates suggests uv flow should be high for algae, bacteria, etc. Slow is for protozoa (ich).
Sounds like you're doing everything right...sorry to hear it's been so hard.

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[SuncrestReef]

Wow, sounds very frustrating.  Sorry to hear.

I've been battling briopsys and bubble algae for months and have considered using Vibrant, but have avoided it because of the risk of dinos.  When I hear stories like yours it makes me think my strategy of manual removal and lowering nutrients is probably the safer approach.

[albertareef]

Bummer.  Sounds like one of those persistent problems that is always lurking.  I wonder if some of Eli's work on tank microbiomes might ultimately provide some help in situations like these.  Early stages yet but the hope would be once he has enough data from tanks in various conditions there would be a "profile" you could shoot for that could lead to a longer term solution.  Stay tuned...

[Trailermann]

11 hours ago, Burningbaal said:

BRS investigates suggests uv flow should be high for algae, bacteria, etc. Slow is for protozoa (ich).
Sounds like you're doing everything right...sorry to hear it's been so hard.

I  am still trying to figure out the right flow for my new UV.  I believe you are quoting BRS correctly, but if I understand the concept of UV's killing things (actually sterilizing them), then would it not be more accurate to say that slow flow and greater contact time is for protozoa and algae, bacteria, etc.  Hope the dinos of Spschampion behave and just go away.

 

[pledosophy]

IME I would run the UV or dose the LIVE phyto. Not both. 

They phyto would be better long term as it will add to diversity of your system. 

If you are going to run a UV, make sure to run a pre-filter before the bulb.

Good luck. 

[Burningbaal]

@Trailermann , you're sort of right. The shower flow would certainly be effective at killing the algae/etc that is flowing through it. The algae/etc is more labile (fragile) to UV damage than the protozoa, so it will certainly have as much destruction as the protozoa at the same exposure rate.

The problem is that the algae/etc, because they are simpler, they can replicate (reproduce) much faster. Because of this, you need to focus on getting a huge portion of the tank through the filter every hour to kill the fast-reproducing organisms. If you don't flow the tank water fast enough, it'll probably replicate faster than you're killing it with UV.

It's a good thing the algae/etc are easier to kill or you'd need a massive sterilize to get the high (protozoa) exposure AND the high flow rate (algae/etc) through the sterilizer.

I do have a background in microbiology, so I definitely grasp the theory. The study BRS did (if replicatable, and as carefully performed as the video made it seem) lends significant evidence to indicate the flow rate must be very high in order to defeat the replication rate.

To be specific, they had test tanks where two tanks of the same size, light, setup, etc were set up with the same sterilizer. One with high flow and the other with the lower (protozoa) flow. The ones with lower flow (higher exposure) had a lot more algae than the one with high flow.

So the premise is you have to choose. Either higher flow (lower exposure) to defeat the more fragile and faster replicating algae/bacteria or a higher exposure/lower flow for defeating the tougher (slower replicating) protozoa.
You certainly could run two sterilizers with different flow rates (about 1/6th is the idea), but that's a lot of setup and $. You could massively oversize the sterilizer so even at a high flow rate you're getting a protozoa-killing exposure, but that's huge $$$.

Happy to discuss more of you're interested

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[Spschampion]

Burningball, at first I did just run the UV light. While I did almost immediately see a difference. It was slow. Everything I read at the time said a slow flow was the most effective for killing Dino’s. So that’s what I did. I did some more research on phytoplankton and started adding a little bit everyday. The rate the Dino’s died back increased a lot. But I have wondered if I’m a way this is a waste. I’d imagine the UV kills a good percentage of the phytoplankton added. Also added some copepods. I read that this can help increase biodiversity as well. Might try increasing the UV flow and see how it goes. Thanx for the advice, everyone

 

[Burningbaal]

5 hours ago, Spschampion said:

Burningball, at first I did just run the UV light. While I did almost immediately see a difference. It was slow. Everything I read at the time said a slow flow was the most effective for killing Dino’s. So that’s what I did. I did some more research on phytoplankton and started adding a little bit everyday. The rate the Dino’s died back increased a lot. But I have wondered if I’m a way this is a waste. I’d imagine the UV kills a good percentage of the phytoplankton added. Also added some copepods. I read that this can help increase biodiversity as well. Might try increasing the UV flow and see how it goes. Thanx for the advice, everyone

 

Ya know, dinos are a protist (eukaryote), so the slower flow (like for protozoa) may work better for them. The trouble might be that they are also fast-replicators (obviously much faster life cycle that the ich protozoa). So the problem with UV may be the perfect storm: You need a higher exposure (lower flow) to effectively kill it, but a higher flow rate to defeat the fast life cycle.  Ergo, you might need something like 200w of UV to knock back the dinos effectively...yikes!

As pledosophy has indicated, the combo of UV and phyto is probably not a great plan...the phyto's likely knocked back by the UV, though hopefully it is growing some in the tank and might be able to out replicate the UV destruction...but I wouldn't count on it.  I'd focus on phyto and maybe pods to munch on it. Some people report success using a heavy hand with macroalgae can help...if you don't have a refugium, it could be helpful. It does tend to lower nitrates, so that seems odd, but I've heard it has helped.

Most effective would probably be dosing live stuff...The phyto's great, but maybe Live Rock Enhance, MB7, Dr Tim's Waste-away, etc. I know you feel like Vibrant caused the dinos, but I'd encourage you (and the whole community) to think of it differently. You had a turf algae problem, so you started dosing a bacterial product and the turf algae went away. Then Dinos cropped up, ok...but I suggest it wasn't Vibrant's fault. I suggest that Vibrant took down one problem, but the core issue wasn't resolved yet: the microbial imbalance was still there, it was getting better, but not done. I think dinos were just the next phase in your progress. I might get railed on for saying this, but I would actually argue that collecting all the variations of microbial additives is the best thing you can do here.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be dosing that phyto, but also be dosing Vibrant, Live Rock Enhance, Microbacter clean, Dr Tim's Waste-away, maybe Biospira, biopronto, whatever you can find. I suggest you focus more on building up a GOOD microbiome than on killing the bad microbiome.