Planning the dream

[Burningbaal]

Okay, I'm re-inspired. We have been planning a remodel of the daylight basement for next year and I have gotten into homebrew, so I was going to make a little area (shared with the laundry downstairs) to do homebrew. But I've got to thinking that I think homebrew was really only a hobby that filled in my reef hobby.  I couldn't really keep a tank going because we were moving a bunch (the fist move to WA is why I sold my prized 90g+55sump setup) and then massive renovations kept me too busy and the air too dusty. homebrew was good because I got to take advantage of the lulls by going outside with the cajun burner.

But I want my reef back!  So I'm getting my little 29g peninsula (standard aqueon with a little fuge/return on the end I made with black acrylic) and plan to use it as the start for my dream tank. This thread is going to be the place for you all to beat up my ideas as I plan the system so I (hopefully) get it right.

I think I've got a spot planned in the new basement (remember...remodeling the basement next year) that would have a two-sided display (1 long and 1 short side) for 6' x 2'. I'm thinking I might do a 180 72x24x24 display, but we'll see; it might be a little taller or thinner, 24 wide is the max that fits. I would love to keep a mixed reef with tangs, firefish, cardinals, you get the idea. And: a mandarin dragonet; who doesn't love those guys, really.

So my basic idea is this (details further down):

• 75g (48 x 18) sump with an unlikely mangrove display (through cabinet's end, same end as the DT's end-display)
• >=10gal fuge above the DT with its own bean animal. This will cast some shade on the DT, perhaps good for lower-light corals. This will be some rock and lots of macroalgae for pods. more details below
• room to add a frag/QT tank later (hopefully a 40B)
• floor drain [emoji4]
• ATO (>= 20gal source, auto-filled by RODI) and AWC (probably a 50gal drum, change about 1% of system per day)

Here's a little diagram, but I don't think I'll put the bean animal there, probably on the long side, maybe 4' long. Also, I think I've given up the external overflow idea because I think it only works with a rimless tank and I don't want to spend that $$$:

The modified bean animal is minor, but two small tweaks from 'normal' (1) The open pipe will be a little upsized (1.5") to be a little quieter and minimize risk of things getting stuck and the emergency will be huge (3"?) to make sure nothing gets stuck (2) the pipes will drop in different areas of the sump (see its drawing below); siphon (most flow) into skimmer section, open (most aerated) into mangrove section, emergency (the uh-oh) straight in the return section. just cause it will be huge and might get crowded with the skimmer.

the 2.5 AWC should drop the return section about 4", which should be no problem at all and everything can run 100% normal (except ATO, but that's not an issue) during the AWC. the ATO will go into the mangroves to give them a little brackish variation occassionally. If I set up the frag/QT, the AWC will drain from sump to QT and the QT will overflow that into the sewer.

The fuge will be barebottom and lit around 6-8K (daylight) for algae growth, and have rock and macroalgae for pod growth. I plan to have the return from sump split with a valve on the tank-bound line so I can push about 1X turnover into the fuge, which will then overflow to the DT. I may add a small powerhead on a cheap timer to pulse on occassionally (a few minutes per hour, maybe) so some pods get pushed off their home and into the overflow/DT. I think I've heard pods are more active at night, so I might make the fuge black-walled and reverse-light it. that way the pods are more likely to get swept into the DT while the fish (madarin) are hungry. Might do an airstone to feed the algae, but I'm nervous of salt creep

 

First, I welcome all your abuse of this plan you can muster (though I prefer constructive criticism [emoji4]). oh, UOU baffle is planned to have 3" gaps for easy cleaning, I might put a sock on the mangrove's inlet to cut the bubbles, but I'm mostly hoping it won't need much with the mangroves there to break up the flow.

 

Next, I'm still thinking through all the littler pieces, but here's where I'm headed:

• start with about 150lbs of dry rock (easy 'scaping) and then 2" live sand.
• When I do my 29g's WC, I'll just trade with the new system (which will be pretty clean water), maybe trading rocks between my 29 and the sump for a couple months. This should get some nutrients and bacteria into the new system and keep lower nutrients in my 29.
• A couple months later: move all my rock and stock from the 29g into the new system, might put the 29's sand into the fuge or mangrove area, might toss it out. Probably won't do much with the fuge or mangroves at first, there won't be much excess nutrient anyways until I get a lot more livestock.

equipment:

• mostly two MP40s for DT flow, I think that'll put me around 50-60X depending on the program, theoretically a 90X max
• return pump is TBD, but plan to run about 5X the DT volume with the fuge getting about 1X of it's volume
• might use one of my koralia nanos from the 29g in the mangrove area and one in the fuge just for fun
• skimmer is TBD, but this should have room for a 500gallon-rated (240g with heavy stock) skimmer, using the RSK 900 reefer as an example for now
• Lights are LED, but TBD. Maybe go for a couple ecotech XR30Ws or something for the DT. The fuge and mangroves will be cheaper, probably just hydroponic PC or something
• Heaters in three places, some near the MP40s in case the return pump is off for a while. more in the sump and maybe steal one from my 29 for the fuge
• plumbing is just plumbing, but I'm thinking about doing a lot of flex pipe to make it easier...any reason not to? I want to put a gate valve on the branch to the DT from return so I can dial in slow flow to the fuge, gate valve on the return's main output if it isn't adjustable. and the bean animal siphons (one in DT, one in fuge) will both have gate valves. I want the gate valves for easy dialing in.

I figure with a 55gal drum of saltwater and 2.5g daily changes, I'll make a new batch every other weekend and never run out. I should never have to think about the ATO since the vessel will auto-fill from the RODI. I would just go direct to sump from RODI, but this gives me two safeties: (1) it can't fail and make the system super low-salt/flooding unless two points fail, (2) if the RODI's float valve fails open, it will just drain down the sewer (I'll put the vessel in a secondary with drain)

Livestock:

I'll have to do this slowly (budget), but that's okay.  Eventually, I want:

• several big boys (achilles, yellow, hippo tang, humu trigger, a couple angels)
• some schooling nano fish (school of firefish or cardinals or chromis)
• some wrasses, maybe a lawnmower blenny for good measure
• TBD. not sure what else...we'll see maybe I'll have to get nemo for the kids [emoji4]
• we'll have to see for corals. probably some plating, encrusting, and branching SPS. Probably some LPS (acan, chalice, duncan, brain, hammer, who knows). possibly a couple softies, but not too many. Mostly just if I have any in the 29g, I'll move them.
• Hopefully a clam, too [emoji4]

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Burningbaal
adjusting for revised idea

[Burningbaal]

ok, a few specific questions:

• I've never used reactors and dosers before. I figure as the corals get going, I'd start by using kalkwasser in the ATO, but I also assume at some point I may add a reactor or doser in the sump, should be plenty of room either around the skimmer or return. but I wanted to think about that space. I lean toward dosing, but...thoughts?
• I may add a little venting to the outside to try to manage the pH, but am concerned about increasing heating needs and/or evaporation...any advice?
• I'm thinking about moving the overflow (still external) to the backside instead of the blind-end.  a 72" long weir, what's not to love  that also makes it easier to drop the three different pipes into the three different places, way easier plumbing.
• I'm thinking about using my 29g as the ATO source after the move, any reason not to?
• I'm thinking about doing a 3D background on the two 'back' walls. I'd try to make it thin down to nearly nothing near the display edges. I liked a video I saw with an eggcrate backer, some dry rock and pond sealant spray foam, cover it in resin and coarse sand. I'm trying to think about how to do this with a 72" weir, anyone have a good answer for this? I want the long weir to be skimming the surface, but I don't want the background 'rock' to stop below the weir...I want my cake and to eat it to...
• I haven't drilled the return before, just had it over the top.  anyone have strong opinions here? I liked that it broke suction quickly when the pump turns off, and seems like it keeps the tank looking cleaner (most of the pipe out of the water), but I'm looking for input.

[pdxmonkeyboy]

A full length weir is a really good idea, great surface movement. If you are at all handy, you can make one out of acrylic. I did that for my 6 foot long tank.

I dunno about the custom background. It can be done for sure, I made a super cool background for a freshwater tank once. Caves, etc, it was really cool. In a saltwater environment though, you might get algae growing on it, then it would be a nightmare. Or it could possibly be a nightmare. I used foam for mine, carved it up with a knife, then sanded it, finally I covered it with hydraulic cement.

Cheap doser to start with, if you get a decent amount of sps I would angle towards a reactor.



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[Burningbaal]

10 minutes ago, pdxmonkeyboy said:

A full length weir is a really good idea, great surface movement. If you are at all handy, you can make one out of acrylic. I did that for my 6 foot long tank.

I dunno about the custom background. It can be done for sure, I made a super cool background for a freshwater tank once. Caves, etc, it was really cool. In a saltwater environment though, you might get algae growing on it, then it would be a nightmare. Or it could possibly be a nightmare. I used foam for mine, carved it up with a knife, then sanded it, finally I covered it with hydraulic cement.

Cheap doser to start with, if you get a decent amount of sps I would angle towards a reactor.



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Thanks for the response. I am fairly handy, and my good friend is a manager at the local TAP plastics, so acrylic shouldn't be an issue (even though I think I want glass for the display). I may do a 5ft overflow in the glass, I did my 4ft overflow (internal) with 1/4" glass on my old 90g and it worked great. I don't want all 6 ft here because one end will be display.

Also, I'm backing off the custom background idea because I realized I'll be totally stuck for powerheads. I don't want them on the two display walls, so I need flexibility for moving/adding powerheads on the two 'rear' walls. Doser sounds right.  I'm probably going to land with APEX, so I may just get their doser.  and if that seneye coral ever comes out (and works), I can have a good grip on my alkilinity all the time. 

FWIW, my water-treatment-chemist wife (B.S. in chemistry, spent about a decade working in water treatment for both waste water remediation and drinking water, then later in pool treatment) says their theory (CO2 monitor and pH monitor) is totally legit to get you carbonate hardness. the question is if carbonate alk actually is most of our total alk or if bicarbonate and/or borate alk make their number useless.

[Burningbaal]

I think I can put two 55g drums across the room. I figure one with saltwater and one with freshwater. I'll probably have the RODI with a float valve but have a manual valve that's normally off, when I notice the drum getting light, I'll open the ball valve and turn it off the next day. that way I minimize TDS creep (no short cycles on the RODI) and I won't flood (float valve). This also means I know when to add kalk (assuming I go that route) because I'll know when new ATO is made.

Same idea with the saltwater, but I might try to fit an extra drum. It'll be constantly getting drained with the auto water changes and I don't want to get caught with no saltwater when something goes wrong, so I want to keep an extra. When one runs out, I can swap the feed for the AWC to the full one and make a fresh 55G batch of salt. If the system has around 250gal (180 display + everything else, but minus rock/sand/equip), this means I should always have more than 20% ready to change. 

I also think I'm going to skip the MP40s just buy the apex with a pair of WAVs. If I need more flow, I can either add more WAVs or get an MP-something. So it'll start with APEX wifi kit + 2 WAVs, ($1150 at BRS), the AutoAqua AWC/ATO, and maybe the seneye coral if it becomes a real thing to see if I can get good alk readings. I'll add the apex's DOS when I find I need to run Ca/alk/mag, and I'll probably add the AFK for feeding. I'll probably run the radeon lights through their own controller until/unless I add any vortech pumps, then I might get the WXM. Since the theory on CO2+pH is pretty solid, I wonder if I could find my own CO2 probe on a raspberry pi, and watch the pH from the apex (does it have an API I can see my values at?) then I could have my own continuous carbonate alkilinity monitoring w/o seneye

[youcallmenny]

There's a lot to tackle here and I'm interested to see how it goes.  One small thing I can help with perhaps is your venting/dosing idea.  I tried venting to increase pH on my last tank and it didn't do much.  I took up dosing soda ash as my alkalinity component in the 2-part I use which has a high pH.  It did a much better job of keeping it high and is just part of my chemistry dosing.  

It's a grand plan!  Any wrinkles that could be smoothed out ahead of time will save you a lot of work later.  It's always nice to see such enthusiasm for a new system! 

[Burningbaal]

good thought on soda ash. I may make room for a little venting anyways, the clothes dryer will be in the same room as all the tanks (display is out the other wall), so humidity might get brutal [emoji4]

Anyone have advice on fish capacity in a 180? I'm thinking it may be around 250g total system (wild guess). I'm thinking of this kind of a fish set:

hippo

sailfin

humu trigger

firefish school

chromis school

eel?

angel?

butterfly

achilles tang

yellow tang

niger trigger MANDARIN DRAGONET!

 

[Burningbaal]

Ok, I think I'm settling in a diy version of the "ghost" overflow. I'll form it only about an inch off the back glass, just deep enough to get down around the holes (which I'll have in excess, maybe 3 @2" or something, and only deburred holes). I think there's going to be a structural post in the way of the external overflow, so while I'll have a 6' long (toothed) weir inside, the holes will be focused on the half that doesn't have a post outside, and the external box will totally be about 3' long, I haven't yet decided about the external profile. I will probably just do a little 4x4bor maybe a little bigger, with three holes in the bottom for my almost-bean animal. But I saw Sanjay (Pennsylvania)'s 500g display with little cubbies on the overflow and thought that was nifty, so we'll see.

 

It's odd to have the holes with no bulkhead, but there's really no point, the bulkeads will be in the bottom of the external box.

 

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[pdxmonkeyboy]

You should come over and look at my overflow.
I have the best overflows, and I know overflows. Its tremendous, you know what I'm talking about though, you have seen this. It's an amazing overflow.

But seriously, no teeth, that's the dope [language filter]. Oppps, I mean shiet.

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[Burningbaal]

Well, I live near Seattle, so that's gonna be tough...can you post/pm/email a hundred pictures and videos so I can understand it?

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[Burningbaal]

Here's my idea so far. internal weir (toothed or not, TBD) full length with (probably) three giant non-bulkhead holes to the external. the idea is to get a super long weir for thin skim, but allow for a rimmed tank and (close to) the aesthetic of an external overflow.

Picture of the end shows how the internal weir is an inch short (the actual DT level) compared to the rest of the tank/overflow. I want to oversize the open pipe and the way-oversize the emergency pipes to minimize the risk of clogs, I count it as cheap insurance if a snail tries to go for a ride. siphon will drop below the water level in the fuge section to minimize noise/bubbles. Open will drop into the skimmer section, emergency will drop into the return section (emergencies are emergencies, I don't need to skim for that emergency).

I'm contemplating removing all the siphon's pipework in the box...why not just pull off the bulkhead...why do we do that pipework for a normal bean animal?

Visual clues: siphon pipe has the little red ring that's supposed to look like a gate valve. open pipe has the little airline to go siphon when it has to. Emergency is just giant and high enough it shouldn't get used. I'm thinking 1/4" glass outside (it's only 4" of water) and 1/4" inside. if I do a toothed internal, it'll be acrylic, which is a bit of a game to get solid against a glass tank, but I think I can do it. Those holes in the tank's back glass are drawn as 3" diameter, no bulkhead, just debur the glass. I want the biggest possible openings from internal to external without weakening that rear wall of the tank.

so, pdxmonkeyboy (and all others):  please beat up my idea!

[pdxmonkeyboy]

That is essentially how mine is. A long thin box in the tank and a box on the back side enough to fit the bulkheads for the drain.

Dont blow your mind trying to figure out where to put the bulkhead seals, you only need a seal between the tank and the back box.

I will try to get pics, I think there is a thread here.

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[Burningbaal]

6 minutes ago, pdxmonkeyboy said:

That is essentially how mine is. A long thin box in the tank and a box on the back side enough to fit the bulkheads for the drain.

Dont blow your mind trying to figure out where to put the bulkhead seals, you only need a seal between the tank and the back box.

I will try to get pics, I think there is a thread here.

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Great! About how thick is the internal box? I've been thinking 1", but...?

Also, I've been thinking a eurobraced tank would be great, but then I can't really get into the internal box to clean anything (though...black acrylic would decrease the need for cleaning). I was thinking of putting small pieces of glass siliconed into place at the edges to support the internal acrylic, which would just rest in place. probably just get 1" x 1/4" glass 'strips', a 6' one along the back, and a pair of them on the ends of the tank to hold the corner of the internal box shape. This way I can just reach through the holes in the back wall and push the overflow out of its spot (at least if I drain the water level in the DT low enough I'm not fighting water pressure) for an occassional deepclean/de-clog. The shortcoming is that the internal box would have no seal at all, so it would slow-drain pretty far whenever the returns are off.

Then I though of putting the eurobrace over to the external box and not on the actual DT back wall, but I'm not sure there's enough strength there...🤷‍♂️

[pdxmonkeyboy]

I didnt follow everything you were talking about, but there is no such thing as bonding glass to acrylic . At least in a manner to prevent movement.

You certainly want your overflow box, the internal one, to be entirely watertight or like you said, on pump shut off you will draining down to the invert height of your bulkheads.

I cant think of a time you would clean the inside of the inside box. Mine is about 1.5" wide I think? Make as thin as possible while still being able to fit the nuts of your bulkheads in there.

No teeth means laminar flow. You can google weir water height calculator to determine the water column height passing over the top of your overflow. It is very very thin!! On my 5' long overflow at around 5,000gph its around 1/8" . What I did to prevent snails and fish and other things crawling into the overflow is to put a piece of polycarbonate slightly narrow than the overflow in there. The water just flows around it. You can pull it our and clean it.

Here are some pics of mine..

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[Burningbaal]

ah, so you have two water tight boxes wit bulkheads through the whole set using an extra gasket each.  I guess that makes sense. I was thinking I could just have two partial boxes and use the tank glass as the 5th piece for each box...maybe it won't work....I'll have to keep stewing on this.

 

FWIW, my 29g DIY peninsula 'AIO' has acrylic walls/baffles in the glass tank and seems to work fairly well, though I wouldn't know if there's a small leak since it's all wet back there anyways.

[TheClark]

Good stuff!

FWIW I recommend starting with a calcium reactor from the get go.  I sure wish I would have from the beginning.  You always end up wanting one it seems like, especially for that nice of a setup.

 

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

ah, so you have two water tight boxes wit bulkheads through the whole set using an extra gasket each.  I guess that makes sense. I was thinking I could just have two partial boxes and use the tank glass as the 5th piece for each box...maybe it won't work....I'll have to keep stewing on this.
 
FWIW, my 29g DIY peninsula 'AIO' has acrylic walls/baffles in the glass tank and seems to work fairly well, though I wouldn't know if there's a small leak since it's all wet back there anyways.

You only need one gasket. It goes between the rear of the tank and the back box. It is a little counter intuitive but here it goes.

That way you are only sealing the back of the holes that are drilled through the tank. The bulkheads can leak into the drilled holes from the front or the back but it doesnt matter, as there is no where for that water to go.

Use silicone grease on these o-rings FFR.

But yeah..no teeth to clean and absolutely silent.


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