Long Term Success With Clown Harem Tank?

[TaylorW]

So I've been considering turning my "Anenome" tank into a Clown Harem Tank, I've done quite a bit of research or at least researched what I can find, but I'm curious if anyone here has had success longer term with a Harem tank. From what I can find many consider them to be one of the "easier" tanks since it's mainly bta's, correct lighting, water change schedule and a regular feeding schedule for the Clowns? I've always had excellent luck with bta's so not worried there. The tank I'm considering is my 50 gallon acrylic, it will be stocked with mostly Bubble tips all colors. I'm having trouble deciding how many Clowns though for that size tank. I'm leaning towards the lower recommended numbers of 7-15 but not sure what would be a good number for a 50? I have a 20 long sump with Hydor Performer 705 Recirculating Skimmer (huge Skimmer meant for up to 300 gallons, am trying to trade for something smaller) just recently started a DIY algae scrubber and am currently using filter socks for filtration. Any tips and or criticism welcomed! Oh and am wondering about having other species of fish with them, I know they can get aggressive at breeding age but I have seen videos and pictures of Harem tanks with other fish like a Cardinal, Mandarin and a Scooter Blenny mixed in some.... It's probably not the best idea especially once they reach breeding age but still curious! I appreciate any tips at all 😊 

Edited June 24, 2019 by TaylorW

[TaylorW]

Nobody? Oh well I'm still planning on giving it a try!

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[CrabbyCrabs]

I was talking to one store owner that said eventually they will start killing each other or injuring each other when they start finding mates or changing sexes. I would love to have a tank with a couple dozen clowns and several breeds.

[batchelor]

You probably already know this, Bulk Reef Supply did a clown harem tank. There is a ton of info on BRStv.

[NateDawg]

Here's the link to the video playlist on brstv for how they kept a clown harem tank, seemed to be pretty informative, 

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBaMLrfToJyxQ2ssQRPnmwFOJ2Qp8NBHi

 

[Manny Tavan]

BRS basically said: get a bunch of them in there all at once. higher success if they are all from the same clutch and they all look like each other. also having lots of nems will help reduce aggression

[milesmiles902]

Please don't call them a Harem on this forum.

[Emerald525]

I had one set up for about 2 years in a 150 gallon tank. The problem with me is I get bored doing the same thing  over and over. I didn’t have any major issues but I got them all from a local breeder and introduced them all as babies.  I would recommend going with the same species false perculas versus true percs as I did see some mimd aggression from one particular platinum clown pair.  I also had plenty of anemones and room which I think is key.

[TaylorW]

Yeah I did see the series BRS did, and that they recommend getting them young and from the same clutch. Curious why you can't use the H word? Am I missing something?? That's what a group of Clowns is called everywhere I've researched, didn't mean to offend obviously if I did....

 

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[milesmiles902]

50 minutes ago, TaylorW said:

Yeah I did see the series BRS did, and that they recommend getting them young and from the same clutch. Curious why you can't use the H word? Am I missing something?? That's what a group of Clowns is called everywhere I've researched, didn't mean to offend obviously if I did....

 

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Maybe you're right. I just feel it has bad connotations. I didn't report you to the forum gods.

Apparently, Wikipedia says this is common for many groups of animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harem_(zoology)

I just wish it was different. It has a bad rep in human history, especially with certain religions, but it is the correct word. 

I hope your clownish breeding works out well. I was never successful.

Edited June 27, 2019 by milesmiles902

[TaylorW]

Maybe you're right. I just feel it has bad connotations. I didn't report you to the forum gods. Apparently, Wikipedia says this is common for many groups of animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harem_(zoology)

I just wish it was different. It has a bad rep in human history, especially with certain religions, but it is the correct word. 

I hope your clownish breeding works out well. I was never successful.

 

Oh my goodness I'm sorry! I didn't even think about that, I completely understand your point though. I would never purposely offend for something like that, I honestly didn't think about that at all. It's a common name for a group of Clowns and apparently other groups of animals but yeah it sounds a bit outdated at least. [emoji45] 

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[LadAShark]

On 6/27/2019 at 6:36 AM, milesmiles902 said:

Maybe you're right. I just feel it has bad connotations. I didn't report you to the forum gods.

Apparently, Wikipedia says this is common for many groups of animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harem_(zoology)

I just wish it was different. It has a bad rep in human history, especially with certain religions, but it is the correct word. 

I hope your clownish breeding works out well. I was never successful.

 

10 hours ago, TaylorW said:

Oh my goodness I'm sorry! I didn't even think about that, I completely understand your point though. I would never purposely offend for something like that, I honestly didn't think about that at all. It's a common name for a group of Clowns and apparently other groups of animals but yeah it sounds a bit outdated at least.  

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It’s also badly coined. Harem was attributed to polygamy when in fact it was a matter of secluding/sheltering/protecting women from stranger men. Still not a nice thing but not done will ill intent. By the original definition, a “harem of clownfish” makes no sense.

Here’s the wikipedia article on it, which I’ve found to be fairly well written and sourced: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harem

And some of the more important excerpts of said article:

“Harem (Arabic: حريم‎ ḥarīm, "a sacred inviolable place; harem; female members of the family")”

“A harem may house a man's wife — or wives and concubines, as in royal harems of the past — their pre-pubescent male children, unmarried daughters, female domestic workers, and other unmarried female relatives.”

“In the West, Orientalist imaginary conceptions of the harem as a hidden world of sexual subjugation where numerous women lounged in suggestive poses have influenced many paintings, stage productions, films and literary works.Some earlier European Renaissance paintings dating to the 16th century portray the women of the Ottoman harem as individuals of status and political significance. In many periods of Islamic history, women in the harem exercised various degrees of political power,  such as the Sultanate of Women in the Ottoman Empire.”

”Where historical evidence is available, it indicates that the harem was much more likely to be monogamous. For example, in late Ottoman Istanbul, only 2.29 percent of married men were polygynous, with the average number of wives being 2.08. In some regions, like Sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia, prevalence of women in agricultural work leads to wider practice of polygyny, but makes seclusion impractical. In contrast, in Eurasian and North African rural communities that rely on male-dominated plough farming, seclusion is economically possible but polygyny is undesirable. This indicates that the fundamental characteristic of the harem is seclusion of women rather than polygyny.”

To clarify this above quote, the source indicated that the average of 2.08 was of the 2.29% that had multiple wives, not of the whole population. So 2.29% of the population had approximately 2 wives, with a handful having more. Just to make sure nobody misunderstands this as the overall average being 2.08. That misunderstanding would mean that that 2.29% of the population had 48 wives on average for each man 😳😅. Q

 

Anyway. To sum it up, the coinage of the term “harem,” meaning what it does at present, was partially an orientalist renaissance fantasy and partially a form of disinformation if not outright propaganda, but I’d personally like to hope it was just a misunderstanding. However, I’m not sure how else Taylor could have phrased this, because that is unfortunately the zoological terminology as milesmiles indicated.

 

I’m not sure if it’s against the rules to post this since it’s somewhat historical and political, while also being sliiiightly off topic, but I felt it’s always good to be well informed!

[milesmiles902]

12 hours ago, LadAShark said:

 

It’s also badly coined. Harem was attributed to polygamy when in fact it was a matter of secluding/sheltering/protecting women from stranger men. Still not a nice thing but not done will ill intent. By the original definition, a “harem of clownfish” makes no sense.

Here’s the wikipedia article on it, which I’ve found to be fairly well written and sourced: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harem

And some of the more important excerpts of said article:

“Harem (Arabic: حريم‎ ḥarīm, "a sacred inviolable place; harem; female members of the family")”

“A harem may house a man's wife — or wives and concubines, as in royal harems of the past — their pre-pubescent male children, unmarried daughters, female domestic workers, and other unmarried female relatives.”

“In the West, Orientalist imaginary conceptions of the harem as a hidden world of sexual subjugation where numerous women lounged in suggestive poses have influenced many paintings, stage productions, films and literary works.Some earlier European Renaissance paintings dating to the 16th century portray the women of the Ottoman harem as individuals of status and political significance. In many periods of Islamic history, women in the harem exercised various degrees of political power,  such as the Sultanate of Women in the Ottoman Empire.”

”Where historical evidence is available, it indicates that the harem was much more likely to be monogamous. For example, in late Ottoman Istanbul, only 2.29 percent of married men were polygynous, with the average number of wives being 2.08. In some regions, like Sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia, prevalence of women in agricultural work leads to wider practice of polygyny, but makes seclusion impractical. In contrast, in Eurasian and North African rural communities that rely on male-dominated plough farming, seclusion is economically possible but polygyny is undesirable. This indicates that the fundamental characteristic of the harem is seclusion of women rather than polygyny.”

To clarify this above quote, the source indicated that the average of 2.08 was of the 2.29% that had multiple wives, not of the whole population. So 2.29% of the population had approximately 2 wives, with a handful having more. Just to make sure nobody misunderstands this as the overall average being 2.08. That misunderstanding would mean that that 2.29% of the population had 48 wives on average for each man 😳😅. Q

 

Anyway. To sum it up, the coinage of the term “harem,” meaning what it does at present, was partially an orientalist renaissance fantasy and partially a form of disinformation if not outright propaganda, but I’d personally like to hope it was just a misunderstanding. However, I’m not sure how else Taylor could have phrased this, because that is unfortunately the zoological terminology as milesmiles indicated.

 

I’m not sure if it’s against the rules to post this since it’s somewhat historical and political, while also being sliiiightly off topic, but I felt it’s always good to be well informed!

The Ottoman empire lasted 1292-1922. Up till the 1700's, it was a completely different world than the 2.08 stat you listed. Also, there was a lot of slavery involved. 

On 6/24/2019 at 4:20 AM, TaylorW said:

So I've been considering turning my "Anenome" tank into a Clown Harem Tank, I've done quite a bit of research or at least researched what I can find, but I'm curious if anyone here has had success longer term with a Harem tank. From what I can find many consider them to be one of the "easier" tanks since it's mainly bta's, correct lighting, water change schedule and a regular feeding schedule for the Clowns? I've always had excellent luck with bta's so not worried there. The tank I'm considering is my 50 gallon acrylic, it will be stocked with mostly Bubble tips all colors. I'm having trouble deciding how many Clowns though for that size tank. I'm leaning towards the lower recommended numbers of 7-15 but not sure what would be a good number for a 50? I have a 20 long sump with Hydor Performer 705 Recirculating Skimmer (huge Skimmer meant for up to 300 gallons, am trying to trade for something smaller) just recently started a DIY algae scrubber and am currently using filter socks for filtration. Any tips and or criticism welcomed! Oh and am wondering about having other species of fish with them, I know they can get aggressive at breeding age but I have seen videos and pictures of Harem tanks with other fish like a Cardinal, Mandarin and a Scooter Blenny mixed in some.... It's probably not the best idea especially once they reach breeding age but still curious! I appreciate any tips at all 😊 

How's the tank going?

Edited June 29, 2019 by milesmiles902

[TaylorW]

How's the tank going?

Well as of now it's great, I only have two Black Ice clowns in there at the moment lol. I haven't quite gotten to that point yet, I wanted to gather as much information as possible before trying it. The tank itself is a 50 gallon acrylic built in center overflow, 20 long gallon sump, all rock probably ~50 lbs was from a previous tank so the 50 gallon was an upgrade really. It has several bubble tips but I'm in the process of stocking up as many as possible before buying about 7 more black ice clowns, the ones I currently have are very young so I'll be on the lookout soon for about 7 more young ones. I also have a small aqua cultured female Mandarin and a Scooter Blenny in this tank that I'll probably eventually remove. There's several corals in there too that I'll start putting in my other two tanks as it starts getting more full of bta's. I still call it my anenome tank even though it is pretty stocked with corals too, I'm picking up a few more bta's today so I'll start putting some of the larger corals in other tanks. I figured after a couple months or so I should have plenty of bta's to try the 9 black ice clowns.

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[LadAShark]

12 hours ago, milesmiles902 said:

The Ottoman empire lasted 1292-1922. Up till the 1700's, it was a completely different world than the 2.08 stat you listed. Also, there was a lot of slavery involved. 

Firstly, I’d like to note that even bringing up such a topic doesn’t feel very appropriate, but I digress.

1) There is no empire or significant power in the world ever in history to not have committed serious injustices in their rise and fall from power; there is no real better or worse nation historically speaking, the more research we do the more we find that people have always broken ethical bottom lines in the pursuit of power.

2) That said, the concept of slavery is completely different in Islam than it is in the western world; especially when it comes to the Americas, even more so when it comes to the European South American slave trade. In Brazil, slaves were an expendable commodity, with the maximum life expectancy of work being 8 years of labor. Under Islam’s rulings, the owner of the slaves is responsible for their welfare and is held accountable. Simultaneously, slaves were able, and did, consistently rise to high ranks in the government. It is worth noting that officially, only prisoners of war were allowed to become slaves (aka one could not just go out and capture slaves). There was unfortunately also sexual slavery, however, officially speaking the slave had to technically consent to it. Slaves did also have to be paid their just dues, in other words, they did have to be paid for their work so that they could eventually buy their freedom. Unfortunately, these were just the official rules. While widely implemented, there were and will always be many who skirt the legal systems.

Another thing worthy of note is that Europe was also involved in this slave trade, with galleys from Europe regularly trading with the Ottomans. In addition, slavery was a pretty big thing worldwide, and colonialism was not really a lesser evil. Not having slavery, colonialism, or both would make you the exception. Hence condemning one specific nation or another for something that every nation actively partook does not make sense; it would be more fair to condemn all slavery and accept that every nation unfortunately participated in this evil.

3) Going back to the previous topic, the concept of marriage is also very different from ours. Divorce is uncontroversial, and marriage itself is considered a contract between two consenting individuals with approval from their guardians. No consent, and it is void. No approval, and it is also void (though unfortunately traditional, non Islamic, arranged marriages also took place). So when you see people who have had a certain number of wives historically, it’s worth noting that they usually didn’t have them at once. Both the man and the woman in the marriage could initiate a divorce whenever they wish, and it doesn’t take both parties agreeing to divorce for it to go through. “Till death do us part” is not a concept that exists in their marriage system; the romanticism of a forever partner is there, but it’s not core to their contract. 

4) However, while even the Sultan was required to follow the laws of the country, there is quite a hit of evidence that there were loopholes people could follow around the legislation. For example, some sultans used this to pressure other Muslim nations into submission. War with other Muslims was expressly illegal, however by declaring other such nations as “heretics” they could skirt that law, leading to many nations simply surrendering/submitting before that could occur. 

I’m not by any means defending the Ottoman empire, but it is important to look at history objectively and from every angle. There are many perspectives, concepts, and behaviors that don’t really translate and and don’t have parallels between various cultures, so things like “marriage,” “slavery,” and many others might not actually be the same as those within our system and culture, despite carrying the same name. The implicit understanding of the same words is often potentially very different. 

Nonetheless, the Ottoman Empire definitely committed serious atrocities, as was and is natural for any empire or nation. The history of man is fraught with oppression by the powerful and significant violence between many for the benefit of a few. It isn’t worthwhile getting stuck on nations of old, instead it’s necessary that we take them as a forewarning and instead act to prevent our and other nations from walking down the same path.

[LadAShark]

9 hours ago, TaylorW said:

Well as of now it's great, I only have two Black Ice clowns in there at the moment lol. I haven't quite gotten to that point yet, I wanted to gather as much information as possible before trying it. The tank itself is a 50 gallon acrylic built in center overflow, 20 long gallon sump, all rock probably ~50 lbs was from a previous tank so the 50 gallon was an upgrade really. It has several bubble tips but I'm in the process of stocking up as many as possible before buying about 7 more black ice clowns, the ones I currently have are very young so I'll be on the lookout soon for about 7 more young ones. I also have a small aqua cultured female Mandarin and a Scooter Blenny in this tank that I'll probably eventually remove. There's several corals in there too that I'll start putting in my other two tanks as it starts getting more full of bta's. I still call it my anenome tank even though it is pretty stocked with corals too, I'm picking up a few more bta's today so I'll start putting some of the larger corals in other tanks. I figured after a couple months or so I should have plenty of bta's to try the 9 black ice clowns.

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Do you think a 50 gallon could handle that many clowns at adult size? 

But wow, I’d love to see it once it’s complete. Will you add other anemones to the mix for variety? (Like carpets and rock flowers).

[TaylorW]

Do you think a 50 gallon could handle that many clowns at adult size?  But wow, I’d love to see it once it’s complete. Will you add other anemones to the mix for variety? (Like carpets and rock flowers).

 

BRS had 30 adults in a 120 with amazing success over the years, they were actually wanting to use a 93 cube I believe which is smaller so you could easily get away with 15 in a 60 gallon since a 60 is half the size of a 120. I figured 9 or 10 in a 50 with a 20 long sump, good filtration, I have a Hydor 705 Recirculating protein skimmer, filter socks, diy algae scrubber which I'm already using all of these should be plenty of filtration to keep up with 9-10 adult clowns in a 50 gallon. Since Clowns rarely leave the safety of their nems I think a 50 fully stocked with live rock, this tank already has 50-60 lbs and plenty of nems should work out fine, at least that's what I'm hoping for, that's why I've been trying to research as much as I can and ask the people here on this forum for any tips. I never thought it would turn into what it did though [emoji15] I may try leaving a few Rock flowers on the bottom along with a few corals but in my experience tons of bta's and corals don't tend to mix well [emoji12] I once placed a baseball sized rock covered in some zoas in the sand of my old 55 that had had dozens of nems thinking it would be safe, only to find a few days later a larger nem placed it's big ol foot right on top of the zoas... This is the tank somewhat recently, I still have quite a bit of work to do obviously as far as adding a lot more nems over the next couple months and removing most of the corals and putting them in my other tanks. I've already caught some of the fish and relocated them, I'll start putting the nems in my other two tanks in this one and purchasing as many as I can find 

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