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Posted (edited)

So I have a QT set up with 2 clowns, a kole eye tang, and a rabbit fish. They've been in there for three weeks

First week, the kole eye tang showed some signs of ich so I started cupramine. Ramped up the dose gradually to 0.5ppm (using salifert test kit which isn't great). It's been at that level for a week now. All fish were doing well and eating until two days ago. One of the clownfish stopped eating. He's also looking tired, not swimming around as much. Ammonia level is at 0. Nitrate 25. I did a 30% water change last night and added more copper. Copper level this morning is still at 0.5ppm so I don't think it dropped below therapeutic level. 

I hear you can get away with a 2 week treatment course but that's for fish that didn't show any sign of ich in the first place. Because the Kole eye tang showed some ich before I started treatment, it's now in the whole system. How long should I keep levels therapeutic? 30 days? 6 weeks? Hopefully the clown was having issues with the nitrate and not the copper but I think it's probably the copper because he started acting that way when I reached therapeutic level.

last night I ordered copper power and hanna copper checker. I may switch to chelated copper if the clownfish still doesn't tolerate the cupramine after the water change

Edited by Manny Tavan

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ugggh.  ich is such an ugly can of worms..  It truly does require a level of diligence that many can not achieve... Ask me how I know....

 

A couple things as I am at work and don't have mega time.  

Chelated or non-chelated... the affect on the fish is essentially the same. 

Your clown is likely not feeling the effects of copper... its a damsel, you could QT them in diesel and they would survive. 

DO NOT put fresh water in then add copper, add copper to the water in the bucket, then add the new water to the tank.  Ergo.. never let the copper level drop. 

Sterilize ALL gear that touches that tank, this includes your hands.  Bleach it baby. 

Keep a lid on your qt tank... aerosol transmission of ich is actually a thing. 

You are looking at a 30 day QT at this point.  You likely have tommonts in your tank, copper won't kill them and your fish also likely have ich trophonts in their gills.  People seem to miss this point rather quickly.  "I don't see any ich trophonts on the fish so he is good".   You have to remember that the free swimming theronts are in the water column looking for something to attach to.  

Hmmm,  I can't think of a fleshy part of a fish you can't see, that doesn't have a slime coat , and that water must pass over for the fish to live.  

 

 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, pdxmonkeyboy said:

  

Hmmm,  I can't think of a fleshy part of a fish you can't see, that doesn't have a slime coat , and that water must pass over for the fish to live.  

 

Target rich environment right there.  There is indeed a reason people who take care of fish for a living check their gills on a routine basis as part of a health assessment - just ask IntoTheMystic!

Good luck with your QT.  As Brian points out, it does take a lot of diligence to do it right.

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Posted (edited)

if I decide to switch from cupramine to copper power, do I have to clean everything out? or just empty the water and refill with fresh saltwater and titrate up?

 

Thanks for the advice on adding copper to the fresh saltwater before refilling. didn't think about that

Edited by Manny Tavan

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3 hours ago, pdxmonkeyboy said:

ugggh.  ich is such an ugly can of worms..  It truly does require a level of diligence that many can not achieve... Ask me how I know....

 

A couple things as I am at work and don't have mega time.  

Chelated or non-chelated... the affect on the fish is essentially the same. 

Your clown is likely not feeling the effects of copper... its a damsel, you could QT them in diesel and they would survive. 

DO NOT put fresh water in then add copper, add copper to the water in the bucket, then add the new water to the tank.  Ergo.. never let the copper level drop. 

Sterilize ALL gear that touches that tank, this includes your hands.  Bleach it baby. 

Keep a lid on your qt tank... aerosol transmission of ich is actually a thing. 

You are looking at a 30 day QT at this point.  You likely have tommonts in your tank, copper won't kill them and your fish also likely have ich trophonts in their gills.  People seem to miss this point rather quickly.  "I don't see any ich trophonts on the fish so he is good".   You have to remember that the free swimming theronts are in the water column looking for something to attach to.  

Hmmm,  I can't think of a fleshy part of a fish you can't see, that doesn't have a slime coat , and that water must pass over for the fish to live.  

 

 

 

 

This is all really good advice. I don't have much to add except:

Know your pathogen life cycle. As you probably know, Cryptocaryon has explosive reproductive potential. I'd go minimum of 30 days and would recommend even longer quarantine if at all possible. The tomonts (2nd life stage that settle on the substrate) are tough and will most likely survive the copper, which is nuking the theronts (3rd stage,) the free-swimming larvae. If the bottom of your QT tank is bare, try to rig some type of brush attachment to your siphon ( I built one by adding the furniture brush attachment from a vacuum cleaner.) That way, when you siphon, you can brush and hoover up the tomonts, thereby interrupting the life cycle in another way.

As Monkey said, practice strict biosecurity with everything that comes into contact with that system and system water. Work on that system last every day.

You're already doing a lot of things right, but look for ways to eliminate any additional stressors. Make sure everyone has a decent place to hide, consider reducing the amount of light entering the tank, make sure the Tang and Rabbit get lots of nori and other greens in their diet, consider marinating wet protein in a marine vitamin supplement before feeding and continue staying on top of your WQ.

Breaking this life cycle is labor-intensive and takes a bit of time but it is enormously satisfying. Good luck with this!

 

 

 

 

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if I had the resources and the time, I would try the TTM. 15 days and done. Almost guarantee of having ich free fish

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Is this the time where we start to talk about the recent discovery that ich tormonts can live for many months if they are in an anaerobic environment...like buried in your sand??  

 

 

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13 minutes ago, pdxmonkeyboy said:

Is this the time where we start to talk about the recent discovery that ich tormonts can live for many months if they are in an anaerobic environment...like buried in your sand??  

 

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I'm like 70 days into a fish free display while I believed ich died off. My hopes are crushed that I am stress free to put fish back in after another 2 weeks 

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You want pain???   Me = 280 gallon SPS display, 18 fish?, glued rock work, total chaos tear all rock work apart, net all fish, 150 gallon tote for copper, 69 days in copper, high nitrates, HLLE disease, not a single sign of ich for 40 days, put everything back in...Six tangs in that tank.   Feel pretty proud of myself for doing the right thing, I even got to look down on some people, preach about QT and fallow....

Two weeks later... ICH on achilies. 

Made my own food with lots of nutritional supplements, have not seen ich spots for a couple months, they are probably hosting in the gills. 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, householdofpayne said:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I'm like 70 days into a fish free display while I believed ich died off. My hopes are crushed that I am stress free to put fish back in after another 2 weeks 

How big of a tank?  Maybe stir the hell out of the sand?  Take sand out and dry it out?  That would kill it (and a good amount of bacteria) but not unmanageable.   I would drip a little dr. tims in there to boost denitrfying bacteria numbers before putting the fish back in.  

OR... probably a better solution... stir the holly hell out of the sand and put a couple freshwater black mollys in there.  If no ich in a week or so you are good to go!!  (I think that would definitely go that route)  Acclimate them to salt water over a couple hours.  They have no immunity to salt water parasites so if ich is in there it will show up on there black boddies. 

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Sounds like i should just do what some people do which is let ich roam free in their tank and keep healthy fish that are able to fight it off...

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2 hours ago, pdxmonkeyboy said:

Is this the time where we start to talk about the recent discovery that ich tormonts can live for many months if they are in an anaerobic environment...like buried in your sand??  

Buzz kill right there.

2 hours ago, pdxmonkeyboy said:

How big of a tank?  Maybe stir the hell out of the sand?  Take sand out and dry it out?  That would kill it (and a good amount of bacteria) but not unmanageable.   I would drip a little dr. tims in there to boost denitrfying bacteria numbers before putting the fish back in.  

OR... probably a better solution... stir the holly hell out of the sand and put a couple freshwater black mollys in there.  If no ich in a week or so you are good to go!!  (I think that would definitely go that route)  Acclimate them to salt water over a couple hours.  They have no immunity to salt water parasites so if ich is in there it will show up on there black boddies. 

Sort of canary in the mine shaft approach eh?  Pretty good idea actually (well, except for the mollies of course).

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1 hour ago, Manny Tavan said:

Sounds like i should just do what some people do which is let ich roam free in their tank and keep healthy fish that are able to fight it off...

The problem with this is that while it may not be visible and hence it appears they are fighting it off, it could well be rampant in their gills and still compromising their health.  That said, I and many others have succumbed to such an approach after failing to sufficiently QT and not wanting to start from scratch.  If you go that route, I think it is helpful to add a good UV sterilizer to your system if you don't already have one (can't recall) as this will help reduce some of the circulating load somewhat - not 100% effective but still better than nothing (make sure to scale this properly though).  Tough call for sure but a full scale QT reboot can be done if you are patient and very detail oriented.  Good luck!

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18 hours ago, Manny Tavan said:

Sounds like i should just do what some people do which is let ich roam free in their tank and keep healthy fish that are able to fight it off...

BTW - you might find this post interesting in regards to this topic.  https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-eradication-vs-ich-management.188775/

This poster has a lot of fish disease and treatment info on R2R if you haven't run across them already.

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Posted (edited)

Here’s what I am wondering. I will transfer my fish from the 34g to the 150g soon. There are two clowns, three chromis, two bengai and a yellow tang. I never QT’d these fish and I have never seen ich on any of them (they’ve been there for over a year). Should I treat these fish with copper or are they ich free?

Edited by Manny Tavan

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Sounds like i should just do what some people do which is let ich roam free in their tank and keep healthy fish that are able to fight it off...
I would definately not go that route. I mean, do whatever you want, it is your tank but be prepared to loose some stuff. Not qting things can get really painful in a hurry. and I am not just talking about fish.


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