Can rapid growth cause color fade?

[Optimusprime3605]

Might be a dumb/newbie question but can sps fade in color when growth is too rapid?

-Some of my acros are really starting to shoot out some long stems and I've noticed the colors are extremely faded. Is that normal? Will the colors come back? I know growth tips are light in color, but I've never seen them so faded, IMO. Anyway to slow down the growth a bit to keep coloration?

Just curious is all... TIA!

 

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[Taylorhardy1]

Do you mean white growth tips? 

[Optimusprime3605]

Do you mean white growth tips? 

Kinda, but it seems the whitish growth tips aren't just at the tips or around the tips. The whitish part is about a 1/2" to 1" down the stem.
Definitely looks like growth tips but further down the stem.
-My thing is, will the color catch up with the rapid growth? Just concerned with how the color is so faded.

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[Taylorhardy1]

What's your phos, nitrate, and alk at? 

Edited April 23, 2018 by Taylorhardy1

[Optimusprime3605]

On 4/12/18 tested:

Alk 11.8
Mag >1500
Ca >500
Nitrates undetectable
Phos undetectable

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[Taylorhardy1]

Your alk is really high for undetectable nutrients. Probably alk burn.

[pdxmonkeyboy]

low nutrients equals starving corals = faded corals.

 

undetectable nitrates... i would feed HEAVILY or add some stump remover

 

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[Optimusprime3605]

low nutrients equals starving corals = faded corals.
 
undetectable nitrates... i would feed HEAVILY or add some stump remover
 
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I feed 6 to 8 cubes a day, I'd think that would be sufficient enough for nitrates. I also, started dosing Acro power 2 weeks ago to raise nitrates.

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[Taylorhardy1]

2 minutes ago, Optimusprime3605 said:

I feed 6 to 8 cubes a day, I'd think that would be sufficient enough for nitrates. I also, started dosing Acro power 2 weeks ago to raise nitrates.

Sent from my man cave while drinking Coronas at Holly's
 

Dose more, feed more. My acros show their best colors with n03 at 5, and p04 at .04, alk 8.2. Your nitrates and phosphate feed the symbiotic algae in sps skin. How do your zoas, and other softies/lps look? 

[503reefland]

Defiantly starving at that high of alk! What time are you dosing acropower? 

[Optimusprime3605]

Dose more, feed more. My acros show their best colors with n03 at 5, and p04 at .04, alk 8.2. Your nitrates and phosphate feed the symbiotic algae in sps skin. How do your zoas, and other softies/lps look? 

6 to 8 cubes a day has gotta enough for only 3 tangs and 2 clowns and 1 watchman, no? I feel a quarter of it probably does not get eaten. As for dosing more acro power, I've heard would cause an algae bloom. I really don't want that. So, I dose it at half the recommendation twice a week. I should also say, only certain acros are not as colorful but others are very colorful.
-My zoas are opening up more since I've been trying to raise my nitrates but certainly could open alot more. Funny with my zoas, they don't open fully, but they seem to still poop out babies, strange. Definitely not complaining about that, but I'd rather have them fully open, tho.

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[Optimusprime3605]

Defiantly starving at that high of alk! What time are you dosing acropower? 

Starving? Please elaborate a bit more, I'm still learning...

I dose acro power during the evening times mostly but sometimes in the afternoon.

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[Taylorhardy1]

You could benefit from more of a bioload on your tank, and bringing your alk back below 10. As far as overdosing nutrients, yes it can definitely cause algae issues, but if you stay within an acceptable range on the Redfield ratio you could have really high nutrients, and alk at 12, and have no algae issues, great growth, and coloration. I'd double your acropower dosing, and feed more. I've even dumped skimmate back into my sump before when nutrients dipped a bit low. Now would be a great excuse to add another fish or two to help add to that bioload as well. Get your nutrients detectable, and cut back on alk dosing, and then things should all balance out. 

[503reefland]

1 hour ago, Optimusprime3605 said:

Starving? Please elaborate a bit more, I'm still learning...

I dose acro power during the evening times mostly but sometimes in the afternoon.

Sent from my man cave while drinking Coronas at Holly's
 

Higher alk results in generally faster calcification/growth so higher nutrients is a must. What are you testing with btw? Are you running carbon? I would start slowwwwly dropping alk and use a different kit to test n03 and po4 with. There’s infinite factors of course but that’s where I would start. 

 

 

 

[503reefland]

Btw Lighting is also is a big one to. there is no definitive “right” answer as I’m sure you know...lol you’ll find the sweet spot though! Sps has been a fun/rewarding/devastating learning curve that keeps curving til you make a full circle then it keeps going around  it seems!😂😂 just as long as it looks better and you don’t old mistakes every lap around I feel I’m doing great!👍🏻👌🏼🤔😂

Edited April 24, 2018 by 503reefland

[Optimusprime3605]

You could benefit from more of a bioload on your tank, and bringing your alk back below 10. As far as overdosing nutrients, yes it can definitely cause algae issues, but if you stay within an acceptable range on the Redfield ratio you could have really high nutrients, and alk at 12, and have no algae issues, great growth, and coloration. I'd double your acropower dosing, and feed more. I've even dumped skimmate back into my sump before when nutrients dipped a bit low. Now would be a great excuse to add another fish or two to help add to that bioload as well. Get your nutrients detectable, and cut back on alk dosing, and then things should all balance out. 

Please explain what is the Redfield ratio...

I'm always thinking about adding another fish or two, to be honest. Maybe, I might just do that... Possibly pick up the Gem tang that Jeff has at CnC... NOT! I'll definitely pick up a couple more fishies, tho.

Do I need to lower my Alk if everything is stable? Everything is growing like mad, so I assume my parameters are stable. I could be definitely wrong, tho. Also, I don't dose Alk. All I have is just a ca reactor and I never added any mag media, just straight up ca from someone else's reactor that they broke down. I was thinking about adding some mag media in the beginning but never did. So, that's basically all I have going: Ca reactor and just recently, dosing Acro Power, that's it. I have no idea on how or why my Alk is that high but all seems to be good, except the growth is too fast... Ugh, idk.

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[albertareef]

14 minutes ago, Optimusprime3605 said:

Please explain what is the Redfield ratio...

I'm always thinking about adding another fish or two, to be honest. Maybe, I might just do that... Possibly pick up the Gem tang that Jeff has at CnC... NOT! I'll definitely pick up a couple more fishies, tho.

Do I need to lower my Alk if everything is stable? Everything is growing like mad, so I assume my parameters are stable. I could be definitely wrong, tho. Also, I don't dose Alk. All I have is just a ca reactor and I never added any mag media, just straight up ca from someone else's reactor that they broke down. I was thinking about adding some mag media in the beginning but never did. So, that's basically all I have going: Ca reactor and just recently, dosing Acro Power, that's it. I have no idea on how or why my Alk is that high but all seems to be good, except the growth is too fast... Ugh, idk.

Sent from my man cave while drinking Coronas at Holly's
 

So this made me go check out an old reef2reef thread on Redfield ratio (having to do with ratio of elements) and i came across this interesting post which, I think, gets to some of the issues brought up above.  In general terms, higher alk levels can stimulate faster coral growth but, that faster growth can lead to some problems if there are not enough nutrients to support it fully - e.g. food (organic source) or elements in the water column (inorganic).  I may be off base her but this seems to be the crux of the issue.  The best solution would likely be a combination of bringing down the alk a bit (reduce your reactor output/raise chamber pH), increase specific coral feeding, and add some bioload.  In theory, this would bring the growth rate down a bit so it doesn't outstrip nutrients, add organic food source for the coral and bring up the inorganic levels a bit as an alternate food source.

OK - that was my reader's digest version of a really complicated topic - not sure it helps.

Do you think (or know) that corals utilize there nutrients from a source other than the water column?

Yes, they do utilize nutrients from a source other than the water column, they are animals and they preferably utilize nutrients from their food – zooplankton, bacteria, phytoplankton, organic particles. But in the same time they are capable to utilize non organic nutrients like NH4, NO3 and PO4 from water column using active transport via cell membranes (but if both – organic and inorganic nutrients are present corals will prefer organic nutrients from food).

So in an ideal situation coral could survive in water containing zero nitrates and phosphates if there is enough food for corals. But in real world, even in healthy reefs this is not always the case (not even speaking about home reef tank) that’s why corals need some phosphates and nitrogen in form of NO3 (or preferably NH4) to be present in water to survive. In healthy reef this concentration of nutrients is enough to be as low as 0,02 for nitrates and less than .002 for phosphates, because there is plenty of diverse food for corals. We found with practice that in a reef tank we need about 10 times more nitrates and phosphates in water present (more than 0.2 ppm nitrates and about .03 ppm phosphates), because we simply cannot ensure enough quality food for corals.

[Optimusprime3605]

Higher alk results in generally faster calcification/growth so higher nutrients is a must. What are you testing with btw? Are you running carbon? I would start slowwwwly dropping alk and use a different kit to test n03 and po4 with. There’s infinite factors of course but that’s where I would start. 
 
 
 

Yes, it's seems that way, growth is somewhat through the the roof. I am testing with Salifert. Yes, I run activated carbon in my sump.

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[503reefland]

27 minutes ago, Optimusprime3605 said:

Yes, it's seems that way, growth is somewhat through the the roof. I am testing with Salifert. Yes, I run activated carbon in my sump.

Sent from my man cave while drinking Coronas at Holly's
 

I’d pull the carbon for awhile maybe that will help with nutrient levels?  That’s awsome you’ve got some good rapid growth, now just need to color it up! 👍🏻 I keep my alk at 8.5-9 dkh calcium 410-430 mag 1350-1450 salinity 1.025 no3 10-15 and don’t test po4 anymore due to the inaccuracies in test and the tank looks perfect and healthy.

Edited April 25, 2018 by 503reefland

[Optimusprime3605]

So this made me go check out an old reef2reef thread on Redfield ratio (having to do with ratio of elements) and i came across this interesting post which, I think, gets to some of the issues brought up above.  In general terms, higher alk levels can stimulate faster coral growth but, that faster growth can lead to some problems if there are not enough nutrients to support it fully - e.g. food (organic source) or elements in the water column (inorganic).  I may be off base her but this seems to be the crux of the issue.  The best solution would likely be a combination of bringing down the alk a bit (reduce your reactor output/raise chamber pH), increase specific coral feeding, and add some bioload.  In theory, this would bring the growth rate down a bit so it doesn't outstrip nutrients, add organic food source for the coral and bring up the inorganic levels a bit as an alternate food source.
OK - that was my reader's digest version of a really complicated topic - not sure it helps.
Do you think (or know) that corals utilize there nutrients from a source other than the water column?

Yes, they do utilize nutrients from a source other than the water column, they are animals and they preferably utilize nutrients from their food – zooplankton, bacteria, phytoplankton, organic particles. But in the same time they are capable to utilize non organic nutrients like NH4, NO3 and PO4 from water column using active transport via cell membranes (but if both – organic and inorganic nutrients are present corals will prefer organic nutrients from food).

So in an ideal situation coral could survive in water containing zero nitrates and phosphates if there is enough food for corals. But in real world, even in healthy reefs this is not always the case (not even speaking about home reef tank) that’s why corals need some phosphates and nitrogen in form of NO3 (or preferably NH4) to be present in water to survive. In healthy reef this concentration of nutrients is enough to be as low as 0,02 for nitrates and less than .002 for phosphates, because there is plenty of diverse food for corals. We found with practice that in a reef tank we need about 10 times more nitrates and phosphates in water present (more than 0.2 ppm nitrates and about .03 ppm phosphates), because we simply cannot ensure enough quality food for corals.

Thanks for chiming in, Sean...

It's a bit clearer now on what the Redfield ratio entails. Thanks for doing the reading for me, lol. So, basically, I need to lower my Alk to keep in balance with the growth rate of my corals, thus I need to lower Alk (a tad) and shove nutrients down the corals throat, so to speak. Being that my Alk is high and my corals need more nutrients, would it be ok to just add more nutrients to level it out, kinda? Nevermind. By doing so would just spark a bloom of unwanted algae, I assume.
-Lowering my Alk must be done super slow, according to 503reefland and how do I do that? You mentioned raising my ph in the reactor, it kicks in at 7.1 and shuts off at 6.9. My effluent is at a steady drip, almost a steady stream but not quite. I really don't want to slow the drip any more due to possible blockage.

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[albertareef]

19 minutes ago, Optimusprime3605 said:

Thanks for chiming in, Sean...

It's a bit clearer now on what the Redfield ratio entails. Thanks for doing the reading for me, lol. So, basically, I need to lower my Alk to keep in balance with the growth rate of my corals, thus I need to lower Alk (a tad) and shove nutrients down the corals throat, so to speak. Being that my Alk is high and my corals need more nutrients, would it be ok to just add more nutrients to level it out, kinda? Nevermind. By doing so would just spark a bloom of unwanted algae, I assume.
-Lowering my Alk must be done super slow, according to 503reefland and how do I do that? You mentioned raising my ph in the reactor, it kicks in at 7.1 and shuts off at 6.9. My effluent is at a steady drip, almost a steady stream but not quite. I really don't want to slow the drip any more due to possible blockage.

Sent from my man cave while drinking Coronas at Holly's
 

I would start by backing  the pH control off to have it shut at 7.0 and keep any eye on Alk and leave the flow alone.  Worth looking at some combination of additional feeding and increased bioload as others have suggested. Given you are getting great growth if you got the nutrient balance sorted you would be golden. Sounds like they are just a bit hungry 😋 

[xmas_one]

Alk and Ca too high, nutes too low.

[Higher Thinking]

6 to 8 cubes per day?? That's wild... What size tank? I got a 180 with some big ole fish and I usually do 1 cube and some flake/pellet thrown in. I couldn't imagine dropping that quantity of food in. My wallet wouldn't want me to either [emoji16][emoji16]

Any reason on why you're so set on alk at 12? If it's rapid growth you're after, I don't think you'll be too disappointed at a lower level. Probably wouldn't even notice it. You might even appreciate it more if corals grow slower because it's less maintenance.

You should put up pictures of exactly what you're referencing just to make sure you are actually dealing with what people are assuming.

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[Optimusprime3605]

6 to 8 cubes per day?? That's wild... What size tank? I got a 180 with some big ole fish and I usually do 1 cube and some flake/pellet thrown in. I couldn't imagine dropping that quantity of food in. My wallet wouldn't want me to either [emoji16][emoji16]

Any reason on why you're so set on alk at 12? If it's rapid growth you're after, I don't think you'll be too disappointed at a lower level. Probably wouldn't even notice it. You might even appreciate it more if corals grow slower because it's less maintenance.

You should put up pictures of exactly what you're referencing just to make sure you are actually dealing with what people are assuming.

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Well, started with 2 cubes then 4 then 6 and now 8, haha, but I think I'll cut back to 6, since 8 really is alot. My wallet doesn't feel it as much, actually. Bought 2 cases from someone on the cheap, real cheap. Otherwise, I would not have bought the lot.

I'm not set on having my Alk at 12, it just so happened to be at 12 when I started to test, again. Once I began acquiring more acros/sps, I fired up my CA reactor and began testing, haven't tested in over a year. It's been that stable, I guess. I didn't realize higher Alk promoted faster growth, again, still new to sps/acros. Yes, I would rather have my Alk down to about 9 or 10 and have richer color, for sure!

Here are some crappy pics...

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[Lexinverts]

Your alk is way too high. The first thing to try is lowering your alk to 8 or 9. I'll bet that change alone will make things improve.