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reefnjunkie

Graduated cylinder/ beaker

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Don’t suppose anyone might have a dozen or so in the 250 mil range that need to be rehomed by chance. I foresee an acro grow out comp in the future and displacement is really the true way to measure for acro growth (in my humble opinion)

If not there is the ol faithful ruler 

 

Amazon has the beakers around 8.00 per but asking people to buy them may not fly/be right, so I’m asking for handouts/donations you know “show the love” or is it “share”.......

 

Anyway, it’s a shot in the dark

 

 

SHARE.........

Edited by reefnjunkie
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Don’t suppose anyone might have a dozen or so in the 250 mil range that need to be rehomed by chance. I foresee an acro grow out comp in the future and displacement is really the true way to measure for acro growth (in my humble opinion)
If not there is the ol faithful ruler 
 
Amazon has the beakers around 8.00 per but asking people to buy them may not fly/be right, so I’m asking for handouts/donations you know “show the love” or is it “share”.......
 
Anyway, it’s a shot in the dark
 
 
SHARE.........
Interesting concept...but how do you add acro frag into beaker without adding some water as well for true displacement?

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47 minutes ago, danlu_gt said:

Interesting concept...but how do you add acro frag into beaker without adding some water as well for true displacement?

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Umm... pretty sure that is the idea :)  Now Brad will drop in and tell us something completely different and I will feel like a complete idiot (should be used to it by now).

Guessing you add a set volume then add your frag and measure the difference.  Keep track of growth by measuring the change in displacement over time. This is actually a great way to do this as it should measure the change in volume - which will account for growth in all dimensions not just height.  Makes a lot of sense to me... which means I am probably wrong!

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Umm... pretty sure that is the idea   Now Brad will drop in and tell us something completely different and I will feel like a complete idiot (should be used to it by now).
Guessing you add a set volume then add your frag and measure the difference.  Keep track of growth by measuring the change in displacement over time. This is actually a great way to do this as it should measure the change in volume - which will account for growth in all dimensions not just height.  Makes a lot of sense to me... which means I am probably wrong!
My point is when you add frag to beaker, the frag is wet so you adding water too, not just the frag. Ok, unless you dry out the frag with paper towel first. ;-)

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Umm... pretty sure that is the idea   Now Brad will drop in and tell us something completely different and I will feel like a complete idiot (should be used to it by now).
Guessing you add a set volume then add your frag and measure the difference.  Keep track of growth by measuring the change in displacement over time. This is actually a great way to do this as it should measure the change in volume - which will account for growth in all dimensions not just height.  Makes a lot of sense to me... which means I am probably wrong!
Absolutely correct, but in thinking about it, you have need to "assume" everyone uses the same amont of water

So on second thought... lovin the ruler idea LOL

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4 minutes ago, danlu_gt said:

My point is when you add frag to beaker, the frag is wet so you adding water too, not just the frag. Ok, unless you dry out the frag with paper towel first. ;-)

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Ahh.  Sorry Daniel - just teasing a bit 

I would expect that would actually be relatively minor if you allowed it to drain for a brief period (maybe gently shake off) and should also be porportional to the surface area of the frag itself so wouldn’t bias the number significantly. Could remeasure the same frag a few times to get an idea of the variability. 

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4 minutes ago, reefnjunkie said:

Absolutely correct, but in thinking about it, you have need to "assume" everyone uses the same amont of water

So on second thought... lovin the ruler idea LOL

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Actually I think Daniel’s point about how well the frags are “dried” (which I missed) is a more problematic variable but still could be overcome. Shouldn’t be necessary to use the same amount of water as you are looking for the volume change (unless I’m completely missing the point again). I’m thinking the main problem would be getting a graduated cylinder the right size to fit the frag but have fine enough gradations to measure the volume change accurately.  Might be too hard to nail down for the grow out but I dig this idea in concept.  Volume change ultimately should give you a more sensitive and robust indicator of growth if you could find a reliable way to measure across different users. Rulers are pretty straightforward after all. 

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This is a great idea.  I think the amount of water clinging to a frag plug and specimen would be negligible.  I agree with @albertareef that finding a either a cylinder or beaker with fine enough graduations will be the kicker.    

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Ok - still considering how to do this and I think I have an answer.  

You just need a specimen cup and a syringe. I know a lot of folk on here have those blue lided, volume marked “pee” cups for transporting frags and syringes are common in test kits.  

Fill cup to one of the marked volumes sufficient to cover the frag (mark if desired to keep track). Take the frag and dab the end of frag plug on towel and give it a couple shakes to remove excess tank water. Gently place in cup. Use syringe to draw out sufficient water to get back to your starting volume. Take your measurement of displaced water from the syringe (which will have much smaller increments than a graduated cylinder).  You could repeat this and average the result to get a more accurate measure since it’s pretty fast and easy. 

A245D687-6E79-4B7D-B996-0147C7E4D758.jpeg

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Ok - still considering how to do this and I think I have an answer.  
You just need a specimen cup and a syringe. I know a lot of folk on here have those blue lided, volume marked “pee” cups for transporting frags and syringes are common in test kits.  
Fill cup to one of the marked volumes sufficient to cover the frag (mark if desired to keep track). Take the frag and dab the end of frag plug on towel and give it a couple shakes to remove excess tank water. Gently place in cup. Use syringe to draw out sufficient water to get back to your starting volume. Take your measurement of displaced water from the syringe (which will have much smaller increments than a graduated cylinder).  You could repeat this and average the result to get a more accurate measure since it’s pretty fast and easy. 
A245D687-6E79-4B7D-B996-0147C7E4D758.thumb.jpeg.bb8a2e20164bb2e1ae3769cbf6131f1a.jpeg
I think we found the judge for said contest.

Possibly any container to hold the frag if you'd be adding water a.d measuring with a syringe.

People could live stream the final measurement so nobody cheats... ya I said it- competition can turn people into someone you'd never thought you knew HAHA

I suspect its almost time to run the idea by the board
Thanks for posting

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24 minutes ago, reefnjunkie said:

I think we found the judge for said contest.

Possibly any container to hold the frag if you'd be adding water a.d measuring with a syringe.

People could live stream the final measurement so nobody cheats... ya I said it- competition can turn people into someone you'd never thought you knew HAHA

I suspect its almost time to run the idea by the board
Thanks for posting

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Already running it by the board and just waiting for a couple of stragglers to chime in but so far nothing but positive support and excitement including myself ! :peace:  I will let you know for sure later today.A Cuttlefish multiple group buy and the beginning of a growout contest and a barbecue would make this the best meeting yet this year !:clap:

Urine specimen cup would probably work. I was thinking it would be easy to cheat this way even with a livestream  such as not wiping or shaking and leaving excess water (very bad hygiene practice by the way and can lead to infections 😮) I also don’t know how easy it will be to get people to livestream. I remember hounding people for days to get their pictures in but I know you bring down the hammer much harder than I ever did !😀

 

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Already running it by the board and just waiting for a couple of stragglers to chime in but so far nothing but positive support and excitement including myself ! :peace:  I will let you know for sure later today.A Cuttlefish multiple group buy and the beginning of a growout contest and a barbecue would make this the best meeting yet this year !:clap:
Urine specimen cup would probably work. I was thinking it would be easy to cheat this way even with a livestream  such as not wiping or shaking and leaving excess water (very bad hygiene practice by the way and can lead to infections ) I also don’t know how easy it will be to get people to livestream. I remember hounding people for days to get their pictures in but I know you bring down the hammer much harder than I ever did !
 
Thanks for getting the ball rolling Kim.

If you can call out the stragglers we can make note come election time

Get the noose O.O

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57 minutes ago, albertareef said:

Ok - still considering how to do this and I think I have an answer.  

You just need a specimen cup and a syringe. I know a lot of folk on here have those blue lided, volume marked “pee” cups for transporting frags and syringes are common in test kits.  

Fill cup to one of the marked volumes sufficient to cover the frag (mark if desired to keep track). Take the frag and dab the end of frag plug on towel and give it a couple shakes to remove excess tank water. Gently place in cup. Use syringe to draw out sufficient water to get back to your starting volume. Take your measurement of displaced water from the syringe (which will have much smaller increments than a graduated cylinder).  You could repeat this and average the result to get a more accurate measure since it’s pretty fast and easy. 

A245D687-6E79-4B7D-B996-0147C7E4D758.jpeg

Even better Idea.  I was thinking the same thing but pouring the difference out of the beaker/cylinder.  Much easier with the syringe and less chance of screwing it up.

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Thanks for getting the ball rolling Kim.

If you can call out the stragglers we can make note come election time

Get the noose O.O

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For the record

Im JUST kidding , I know what you all endure- I mean that sincerely, at times this can be quite the day care facility- At one time I was able to see behind the curtain and OMG

#weresthepopcorn

LOL



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37 minutes ago, Emerald525 said:

Already running it by the board and just waiting for a couple of stragglers to chime in but so far nothing but positive support and excitement including myself ! :peace:  I will let you know for sure later today.A Cuttlefish multiple group buy and the beginning of a growout contest and a barbecue would make this the best meeting yet this year !:clap:

Urine specimen cup would probably work. I was thinking it would be easy to cheat this way even with a livestream  such as not wiping or shaking and leaving excess water (very bad hygiene practice by the way and can lead to infections 😮) I also don’t know how easy it will be to get people to livestream. I remember hounding people for days to get their pictures in but I know you bring down the hammer much harder than I ever did !😀

 

Yeah - I think the ability to umm, lets say "bias" the results will always be there short of having an official "weigh in" and "weigh out" approach.  There are a few things one could do to limit that like actually measure all the competition frags using this method before handing them out so we have a documented starting point.   Also could add a photo with ruler (same as used before) as an independent "eye test".  If we wanted to be super official (officious?) we could pick a time/place (future meeting) to bring all the frags back together and re-measure them (hence the "weigh out").  That might be the best way to ensure no funny business but it is a bit of a hassle for people since they would need to not only pick up but deliver the frags.  It would, however, avoid the issue of hounding people to post their updates!  If you (or your frag) doesn't show up at the weigh out... oh well.

It will be hard to totally prevent manipulation but it would be nice to have a more reliable way to measure growth for the acro grow outs since the ruler measurement isn't really ideal for these specimens and it isn't as simple as counting heads.  Just throwing stuff out there for consideration...  feel free to ignore.

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1 hour ago, albertareef said:

Yeah - I think the ability to umm, lets say "bias" the results will always be there short of having an official "weigh in" and "weigh out" approach.  There are a few things one could do to limit that like actually measure all the competition frags using this method before handing them out so we have a documented starting point.   Also could add a photo with ruler (same as used before) as an independent "eye test".  If we wanted to be super official (officious?) we could pick a time/place (future meeting) to bring all the frags back together and re-measure them (hence the "weigh out").  That might be the best way to ensure no funny business but it is a bit of a hassle for people since they would need to not only pick up but deliver the frags.  It would, however, avoid the issue of hounding people to post their updates!  If you (or your frag) doesn't show up at the weigh out... oh well.

It will be hard to totally prevent manipulation but it would be nice to have a more reliable way to measure growth for the acro grow outs since the ruler measurement isn't really ideal for these specimens and it isn't as simple as counting heads.  Just throwing stuff out there for consideration...  feel free to ignore.

I actually like the weigh in and weigh out and an independent judge. That way we could just all meet up and have the prizes available. If someone couldn’t make it they could always have a friend drop it off. Lots of good points but ultimately this Brad’s growout so his rules and his call. My opinion means diddly squat.😀

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Just now, Emerald525 said:

. My opinion means diddly squat.😀

Well, at least we are in the same boat :peace:

Yeah - since Brad brought up the idea of measuring by volume, which I thought was great, was just trying to figure out how to make it practical.  Would be curious to see how it works out if someone does decide to try it.  Tempted to pick a frag at home and follow it for a while to see how well it works... of course for that, I actually need my acros to grow so may be SOL there :teardrop:

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I guess it doesn't have to be very precise because there are always biases built-in that no body can control.  Assuming all tank setup and water chemistry being equal, larger frags will have more growth (most water displacement) than smaller frags.  Because of this, most measurement will bias toward larger frags.  If we do polyp counts to determine percentage of polyps increases, than that would bias toward smaller frags.  Example:  frag with 1 polyp than grow to 3 polyps will have 200% increase.  haha

Maybe we can just take pictures once a month and try to capture pics from same angle then vote of who has the most impressive progressive pictures.  Just throwing ideas out.  ;-)

 

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3 minutes ago, danlu_gt said:

I guess it doesn't have to be very precise because there are always biases built-in that no body can control.  Assuming all tank setup and water chemistry being equal, larger frags will have more growth (most water displacement) than smaller frags.  Because of this, most measurement will bias toward larger frags.  If we do polyp counts to determine percentage of polyps increases, than that would bias toward smaller frags.  Example:  frag with 1 polyp than grow to 3 polyps will have 200% increase.  haha

Maybe we can just take pictures once a month and try to capture pics from same angle then vote of who has the most impressive progressive pictures.  Just throwing ideas out.  ;-)

 

Good points Daniel.  I think you are correct - whatever method one chooses will likely have some built in biases - some of which you can control for better than others. If you are measuring change in volume as a percentage (like the polyp example) then that takes some of the variability out re starting size but you could still make the argument that change in volume could be exponential so might need to do some sort of regression to normalize.  Of course, that is getting way out there for this purpose.  I do think your pic idea is pretty much what ended up happening in some of the previous acro grow outs as the ruler measurement proved somewhat inconclusive.  That said, my memory isn't what it used to be (and was never that great to begin with) so take that with a giant grain of salt :D

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In the future, I would like to do a grow out of this sps.  It's one of my favorite sps and I haven't seen another one that has similar growth pattern.  So far, it as survived 2 of my sps tank crashes and always down to few polyps here and there.  Hopefully, this way someone will have it in case something happens to my tank in the future.  Need to let it grow out a little more before fragging it, maybe in a couple  of months.

 

DSC08336.JPG

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1 hour ago, danlu_gt said:

In the future, I would like to do a grow out of this sps.  It's one of my favorite sps and I haven't seen another one that has similar growth pattern.  So far, it as survived 2 of my sps tank crashes and always down to few polyps here and there.  Hopefully, this way someone will have it in case something happens to my tank in the future.  Need to let it grow out a little more before fragging it, maybe in a couple  of months.

 

DSC08336.JPG

I would like to grow that out!  Nice piece Daniel!!

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This would work, but we have a problem!

The vertical displacement of water is what will need to be measured. With acro's having a wide diameter, it would be hard to find a container to hold them where the vertical displacement is enough to notice. Millimeters if that.

Why don't you just weigh the acro before and after? Then use the density of Calcium Carbonate to get volume?

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Love the displacement method!  Gonna get a colony of Vermetid snails going on the frag plug, win this sucker!!

:peace:

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This would work, but we have a problem!
The vertical displacement of water is what will need to be measured. With acro's having a wide diameter, it would be hard to find a container to hold them where the vertical displacement is enough to notice. Millimeters if that.
Why don't you just weigh the acro before and after? Then use the density of Calcium Carbonate to get volume?
Yeah, what he said...

Sent from my man cave while drinking Coronas at Holly's

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